5 ms·

This article understates the context of this “right of return”—-that the German state in the 1940s systematically murdered over 6 million Jews. Today’s Germans

by mslate 4y ago

This article understates the context of this “right of return”—-that the German state in the 1940s systematically murdered over 6 million Jews. Today’s Germans are not guilty of this crime, but it is an oddly missing fact from this article—-especially in the context of fleeing Brexit. I say this as someone who has exercised my right of return to Austria.

denkmoon 4y ago
You don't always need to elaborate... Do you think there are many germans exercising their right of return that aren't aware of the holocaust?
- harvey9 4y ago
  The audience for the article is mostly not comprised of Germans exercising their right of return, so adding context would benefit the majority of readers.
  - krageon 4y ago
    Are there many countries where this is not part of the curriculum? I've genuinely never met anyone that wasn't taught this in school.
    - nelblu 4y ago
      Holocaust was not taught to me growing up in India. It is quite shameful, I learnt about it watching movie (life is beautiful).
      - snowpid 4y ago
        You dont have to be feel guilty about it. I can understand that non - Western countries dont teach Western (or German) history. In Germany we didnt talk about India as part of the British empire. My scarce knowledge is based on talks with an Indian friend and Wikipedia. Also there are many many genocides unfortunately.
        goodpoint 4y ago
        > non - Western countries dont teach Western (or German) history In general they do because history is human history, not just some country's history, and it would pretty appalling to gloss over genocides of that magnitude.
        vinay427 4y ago
        Honestly, I find both of these anecdotes a little mind-boggling, although it may also be a function of my attending school relatively recently. The vast majority of history lessons in my secondary/high school (IB curriculum) were about overseas regions, including comparative studies of single-party states in the "West" and the "East," colonialism, etc.
        yorwba 4y ago
        IB meaning International Baccalaureate? That might explain a more international outlook. The average German history curriculum tends to cover topics with a German-specific lens. E.g. comparison of single-party regimes will likely involve the NSDAP and SED, colonialism may feature British India in a sidebar but mostly talk about German colonies in Africa, the Berlin Conference, Herero genocide etc. (German New Guinea and the other Pacific colonies seem to get less attention for some reason.)
        snowpid 4y ago
        You see you have a different goal of education. I for example value more regional history as it is something I can connect to. Also high school is superficial and global topics are superficial as well.
        qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
        The genocides are, why a country splitting to release a ethnic group, is something to celebrate. Less chance of that to happen. Pakistan/India seperation comes to mind. Its better to seperate halfway peacefully, then stay together and then get the great murdering during some more despotic moments in history. Can still form something like the european union, to not be bullied by the great bullies. Its of course, orthogonal to multi culturalism as a ideology, but all the melting pots without a constant economic flame, imploded into civil war (libannon, jugoslavia) or turned into brutal centralist empires (russia, etc.).
    - harvey9 4y ago
      The person I replied to said, "Do you think there are many germans exercising their right of return that aren't aware of the holocaust?".
thepangolino 4y ago
[dead]
fguerraz 4y ago
Let's not forget 10 millions Soviets. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...
- mslate 4y ago
  You’re right, let’s not.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
[flagged]
- fmajid 4y ago
  It's not a toy passport. The right to live and work in the EU is pretty valuable for Britons who have lost it due to Brexit. Russian oligarchs pay millions each for Malta's golden passport wheeze, and Roman Abramovich suborned a corrupt Portuguese Rabbi to be declared eligible for reinstatement of Portuguese citizenship for the descendants of Jews expelled in 1492, thus making an end-run around EU sanctions imposed on him.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    That Abramovich plan is genious! And yes, EU passports are very beneficial. And the German one ranks usually under the top three most "powerful" passpoets in world, measured in the number of countries one can travel to without visa requirements. A second EU passport would be somewhat of a "toy" so, but might still make certain things easier in said country.
  - jokethrowaway 4y ago
    Sure, I just meant to denigrate the institution of needing a passport to travel, not how useful is a particular European passport. It feels like we're not that far from middle age.
opportune 4y ago
This is like the holocaust equivalent of trying to explain someone else’s joke. It’s not understated, everybody else got it. If I had to point out what’s understated or lost by many, the author is not comparing this to the holocaust (obviously Brexit is nowhere on the same level). They’re drawing comparison to one of the central narratives of the Jewish Diaspora where Jews periodically have to relocate to get away from declining or unfavorable regimes. But they also recognize that since they were secular and seemingly fully assimilated as a Brit, it’s a little different (which is also a common facet of the Diaspora especially in secular Western countries)

by mslate 4y ago

denkmoon 4y ago

You don't always need to elaborate... Do you think there are many germans exercising their right of return that aren't aware of the holocaust?

harvey9 4y ago
The audience for the article is mostly not comprised of Germans exercising their right of return, so adding context would benefit the majority of readers.
- krageon 4y ago
  Are there many countries where this is not part of the curriculum? I've genuinely never met anyone that wasn't taught this in school.
  - nelblu 4y ago
    Holocaust was not taught to me growing up in India. It is quite shameful, I learnt about it watching movie (life is beautiful).
    - snowpid 4y ago
      You dont have to be feel guilty about it. I can understand that non - Western countries dont teach Western (or German) history. In Germany we didnt talk about India as part of the British empire. My scarce knowledge is based on talks with an Indian friend and Wikipedia. Also there are many many genocides unfortunately.
      - goodpoint 4y ago
        > non - Western countries dont teach Western (or German) history In general they do because history is human history, not just some country's history, and it would pretty appalling to gloss over genocides of that magnitude.
      - vinay427 4y ago
        Honestly, I find both of these anecdotes a little mind-boggling, although it may also be a function of my attending school relatively recently. The vast majority of history lessons in my secondary/high school (IB curriculum) were about overseas regions, including comparative studies of single-party states in the "West" and the "East," colonialism, etc.
        yorwba 4y ago
        IB meaning International Baccalaureate? That might explain a more international outlook. The average German history curriculum tends to cover topics with a German-specific lens. E.g. comparison of single-party regimes will likely involve the NSDAP and SED, colonialism may feature British India in a sidebar but mostly talk about German colonies in Africa, the Berlin Conference, Herero genocide etc. (German New Guinea and the other Pacific colonies seem to get less attention for some reason.)
        snowpid 4y ago
        You see you have a different goal of education. I for example value more regional history as it is something I can connect to. Also high school is superficial and global topics are superficial as well.
      - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
        The genocides are, why a country splitting to release a ethnic group, is something to celebrate. Less chance of that to happen. Pakistan/India seperation comes to mind. Its better to seperate halfway peacefully, then stay together and then get the great murdering during some more despotic moments in history. Can still form something like the european union, to not be bullied by the great bullies. Its of course, orthogonal to multi culturalism as a ideology, but all the melting pots without a constant economic flame, imploded into civil war (libannon, jugoslavia) or turned into brutal centralist empires (russia, etc.).
  - harvey9 4y ago
    The person I replied to said, "Do you think there are many germans exercising their right of return that aren't aware of the holocaust?".

thepangolino 4y ago

[dead]

fguerraz 4y ago

Let's not forget 10 millions Soviets. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...

mslate 4y ago
You’re right, let’s not.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

[flagged]

fmajid 4y ago
It's not a toy passport. The right to live and work in the EU is pretty valuable for Britons who have lost it due to Brexit. Russian oligarchs pay millions each for Malta's golden passport wheeze, and Roman Abramovich suborned a corrupt Portuguese Rabbi to be declared eligible for reinstatement of Portuguese citizenship for the descendants of Jews expelled in 1492, thus making an end-run around EU sanctions imposed on him.
- hef19898 4y ago
  That Abramovich plan is genious! And yes, EU passports are very beneficial. And the German one ranks usually under the top three most "powerful" passpoets in world, measured in the number of countries one can travel to without visa requirements. A second EU passport would be somewhat of a "toy" so, but might still make certain things easier in said country.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  Sure, I just meant to denigrate the institution of needing a passport to travel, not how useful is a particular European passport. It feels like we're not that far from middle age.

opportune 4y ago

This is like the holocaust equivalent of trying to explain someone else’s joke. It’s not understated, everybody else got it. If I had to point out what’s understated or lost by many, the author is not comparing this to the holocaust (obviously Brexit is nowhere on the same level). They’re drawing comparison to one of the central narratives of the Jewish Diaspora where Jews periodically have to relocate to get away from declining or unfavorable regimes. But they also recognize that since they were secular and seemingly fully assimilated as a Brit, it’s a little different (which is also a common facet of the Diaspora especially in secular Western countries)