4 ms·

Agree. I've said for ~10 years now, that it seems the American Dream has transitioned from "Anything is possible as long as you work hard enough." to "Do as li

Agree. I've said for ~10 years now, that it seems the American Dream has transitioned from "Anything is possible as long as you work hard enough." to "Do as little as work possible to get the same paycheck." Something has definitely changed in the culture.

dbingham 4y ago
What could have possibly changed in the last several decades that might have affected someone's willingness to give their job there all? https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ Sorry for the sarcasm, but it is very frustrating to see people standing around wondering at this change as if it's a moral failing when people have been pointing out for decades that those at the top broke the social contract and that there would eventually be consequences.
- mcv 4y ago
  The moral failing is definitely in how corporations are lead and how work is rewarded. I don't blame anyone for not being passionate about a job that barely pays a living wage. In fact, I think it's incredibly harmful for a country when work is not properly rewarded.
- eigilsagafos 4y ago
  I wonder if the tide will ever turn? That it would become a competitive advantage to build enterprises with values other than maximizing the returns to their shareholders.
runarberg 4y ago
I think majority of jobs are low wage with no future prospects, and quite a lot of jobs have bosses or—worse—shareholders taking away the profits for their own private climate devastating opulence. Why would you work hard for these people? Why would you do anything more than the absolute minimum? I think this supposed American dream was only ever a ruse, a Hollywood propaganda. If it ever existed it only applied to a certain demographic and was never actually a possibility for majority of Americans. In the past decades (since the late 70s at least) Hollywood has slowed down it’s propaganda machine in favor of more independent film making (or the propaganda has shifted elsewhere; mainly the military during this century), so the illusion of the American dream is slowly but surely wearing off. In the meantime our jobs suck just as much as before, possibly even more, and are paying even less.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  > Why would you do anything more than the absolute minimum? For personal satisfaction? You are going to be there anyway, you might as well do a good job. I’m not saying to put in more hours than contracted, but those hours should be high quality (or as high as you can make them, under the circumstances).
  - TurkTurkleton 4y ago
    Personal satisfaction, like exposure, is not legal tender.
    - gorgoiler 4y ago
      While this is obviously true, the long term effects of a positive, growth mindset are more likely to have an effect on your net worth than if you cannot or will not take pride in working hard and doing the best job you possibly can.
      - runarberg 4y ago
        This reads like its from a questionable research paper funded by an HR group with the sole aim of gaslighting workers into working harder for less money. I’m not buying it.
        gorgoiler 4y ago
        It is certainly questionable research, but from the lived experience of a superannuated engineer (me!) not an HR group. As for gaslighting? Well, my aim is indeed to make you work harder. Not only that, but for you to have more money not less. At all levels — our society, the sector in which we work, our businesses as a whole and each team in those businesses — your success has a positive effect on everyone else as well as on you and part of that success will come as “legal tender”. The flip side is that if we all drag our heels, everyone is worse off. I have sadly met many people in my life who seem to want everyone else to be as miserable as they are. (Your comment way up this thread talks about jobs with low wages with no future prospects. You make a good point and those jobs really are different — one is unlikely to innovate oneself to greater wealth as a coal miner. Lots of us here on HN don’t fall into this category of work though, and yet, alas, I see the mindset of the low pay / low prospects worker more and more in the tech sector.)
behringer 4y ago
Sorry but this sort of drive is a two way street. If the company's not going to promote me and will drop me as soon as they've burned me out, I'm most definitely not going to "give my all" to the company. The company needs me, I don't need them for my self gratification. I just need a paycheck.
girvo 4y ago
Companies no longer reward loyalty or working hard on the whole, so I'm surprised that you are surprised. Those at the top reap entirely outsized rewards, the company does stock buy-backs, and the workers get table scraps. We're insulated somewhat from that in our industry, we're well compensated, but I don't blame others in other industries for responding to how companies focus their resources today.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Executives from corporate America led by people like Welch treated workers like cogs, which eventually taught employees to treat employers transactionally.
losteric 4y ago
MBAs instead of promote-from-within. Bringing along egotistical bean-counter superiority with typically vastly inferior performance. Seeing this trend in big tech has me very bearish - the non-tech MBAs just can't execute on long-term big bets that require the deep understanding/cross-cutting coordination that comes with career insiders.
- rocqua 4y ago
  Is the problem of outside MBAs their lack of deep understanding? Others here have argued that the promotion of outsiders erodes loyalty and passion of the workforce towards their jobs. I could imagine good outsiders who have the skills for long-term big bets are quite common. But then the erosion of the community inside the company could still foil such bets. As an aside, this alternative narrative seems more palatable to MBAs then your version. Hence it might be more easily accepted.
  - mordae 4y ago
    Actually, MBA schools actively teach people to be shitty to their employees and instill a sense of superiority. It's a scheme of sorts.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dbingham 4y ago

What could have possibly changed in the last several decades that might have affected someone's willingness to give their job there all? https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ Sorry for the sarcasm, but it is very frustrating to see people standing around wondering at this change as if it's a moral failing when people have been pointing out for decades that those at the top broke the social contract and that there would eventually be consequences.

mcv 4y ago
The moral failing is definitely in how corporations are lead and how work is rewarded. I don't blame anyone for not being passionate about a job that barely pays a living wage. In fact, I think it's incredibly harmful for a country when work is not properly rewarded.
eigilsagafos 4y ago
I wonder if the tide will ever turn? That it would become a competitive advantage to build enterprises with values other than maximizing the returns to their shareholders.

runarberg 4y ago

I think majority of jobs are low wage with no future prospects, and quite a lot of jobs have bosses or—worse—shareholders taking away the profits for their own private climate devastating opulence. Why would you work hard for these people? Why would you do anything more than the absolute minimum? I think this supposed American dream was only ever a ruse, a Hollywood propaganda. If it ever existed it only applied to a certain demographic and was never actually a possibility for majority of Americans. In the past decades (since the late 70s at least) Hollywood has slowed down it’s propaganda machine in favor of more independent film making (or the propaganda has shifted elsewhere; mainly the military during this century), so the illusion of the American dream is slowly but surely wearing off. In the meantime our jobs suck just as much as before, possibly even more, and are paying even less.

Aeolun 4y ago
> Why would you do anything more than the absolute minimum? For personal satisfaction? You are going to be there anyway, you might as well do a good job. I’m not saying to put in more hours than contracted, but those hours should be high quality (or as high as you can make them, under the circumstances).
- TurkTurkleton 4y ago
  Personal satisfaction, like exposure, is not legal tender.
  - gorgoiler 4y ago
    While this is obviously true, the long term effects of a positive, growth mindset are more likely to have an effect on your net worth than if you cannot or will not take pride in working hard and doing the best job you possibly can.
    - runarberg 4y ago
      This reads like its from a questionable research paper funded by an HR group with the sole aim of gaslighting workers into working harder for less money. I’m not buying it.
      - gorgoiler 4y ago
        It is certainly questionable research, but from the lived experience of a superannuated engineer (me!) not an HR group. As for gaslighting? Well, my aim is indeed to make you work harder. Not only that, but for you to have more money not less. At all levels — our society, the sector in which we work, our businesses as a whole and each team in those businesses — your success has a positive effect on everyone else as well as on you and part of that success will come as “legal tender”. The flip side is that if we all drag our heels, everyone is worse off. I have sadly met many people in my life who seem to want everyone else to be as miserable as they are. (Your comment way up this thread talks about jobs with low wages with no future prospects. You make a good point and those jobs really are different — one is unlikely to innovate oneself to greater wealth as a coal miner. Lots of us here on HN don’t fall into this category of work though, and yet, alas, I see the mindset of the low pay / low prospects worker more and more in the tech sector.)

behringer 4y ago

Sorry but this sort of drive is a two way street. If the company's not going to promote me and will drop me as soon as they've burned me out, I'm most definitely not going to "give my all" to the company. The company needs me, I don't need them for my self gratification. I just need a paycheck.

girvo 4y ago

Companies no longer reward loyalty or working hard on the whole, so I'm surprised that you are surprised. Those at the top reap entirely outsized rewards, the company does stock buy-backs, and the workers get table scraps. We're insulated somewhat from that in our industry, we're well compensated, but I don't blame others in other industries for responding to how companies focus their resources today.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Executives from corporate America led by people like Welch treated workers like cogs, which eventually taught employees to treat employers transactionally.

losteric 4y ago

MBAs instead of promote-from-within. Bringing along egotistical bean-counter superiority with typically vastly inferior performance. Seeing this trend in big tech has me very bearish - the non-tech MBAs just can't execute on long-term big bets that require the deep understanding/cross-cutting coordination that comes with career insiders.

rocqua 4y ago
Is the problem of outside MBAs their lack of deep understanding? Others here have argued that the promotion of outsiders erodes loyalty and passion of the workforce towards their jobs. I could imagine good outsiders who have the skills for long-term big bets are quite common. But then the erosion of the community inside the company could still foil such bets. As an aside, this alternative narrative seems more palatable to MBAs then your version. Hence it might be more easily accepted.
- mordae 4y ago
  Actually, MBA schools actively teach people to be shitty to their employees and instill a sense of superiority. It's a scheme of sorts.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]