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Makes me think of the famous "707 Barrel Roll" story from its initial testing: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/60-years-ago-the-famous-boeing-707-barr

Makes me think of the famous "707 Barrel Roll" story from its initial testing: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/60-years-ago-the-famous-boeing-707-barrel-roll-over-lake-washington/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/60-years-ago-the-f... “You know that. Now we know that. But just don’t do it anymore.” Edit: forgot the barrel roll was on a 707 - not a 747

isaacdl 4y ago
Should note that's a 707 that Tex Johnston rolled, not a 747. I'm not aware of any barrel rolls performed in a 747.
- aeturnum 4y ago
  Oh good note lol! I misremembered
- turnsout 4y ago
  FTA: "In his Boeing office, he [Tex] hung a sign that proclaimed, 'One test is worth a thousand opinions.'" I need that sign. ha
- kloch 4y ago
  It wasn't even a 707, it was a prototype model 367-80. There were some unusually significant structural differences between the prototype dash 80 and production 707's, for example: > The 132 in (3,400 mm) wide fuselage of the Dash 80 was large enough for four-abreast (two-plus-two) seating like the Stratocruiser. Answering customers' demands and under Douglas competition, Boeing soon realized this would not provide a viable payload, so it widened the fuselage to 144 in (3,660 mm) to allow five-abreast seating and use of the KC-135's tooling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707
  - jefftk 4y ago
    Those two pages disagree. Your quote is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 has "The Dash 80 fuselage was wide enough at 132 inches (335 cm) for five-abreast seating; two on one side of the aisle and three on the other. The fuselage diameter for the production KC-135 was widened to 144 inches (366 cm) and Boeing originally hoped to build the 707 fuselage with that width. By the time the Boeing company committed to production, the decision had been made to design the production model 707 as a six-abreast design"
  - throwawayx134ax 4y ago
    It's in the wikipedia article, but just want to call something out: That particular airframe 367-80 is in the Air and Space Udvar-Hazy museum at Dulles. It is gorgeous. The 747s first airframe is at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, and you can _go inside it_. https://www.museumofflight.org/aircraft/boeing-747-121 https://www.museumofflight.org/aircraft/boeing-747-121
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  - Aeolun 4y ago
    They added 26 centimeters. Just barely enough to fit another person. Seriously, what were they planning to transport? Pixies?
    - paledot 4y ago
      The aisle width and/or chair clearance probably changed as well. Indeed, if only 26 cm was required to add another seat to each row, there must have been substantial wasted space with four-abreast seating.
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fsckboy 4y ago
there's film of Tex Johnston's Dash-80 barrel roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk many years later, Boeing Chief Test Pilot John Cashman stated that just before he piloted the maiden flight of the Boeing 777 on Jun. 12, 1994, his last instructions from then Boeing President Phil Condit were “No rolls”. -- anecdote from https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-tex-johnston-barrel-rolled-a-boeing-707-airliner/ https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-tex-johnston-barre... I wonder why "the suits" at Boeing are so against the barrel rolls? The pilots all agree it's not that big a deal, not dangerous, and anybody watching is going to love it. this article https://www.straightdope.com/21341407/is-it-possible-to-loop-or-roll-a-747-jet https://www.straightdope.com/21341407/is-it-possible-to-loop... says that the bigger the plane, the more dangerous because it will roll more slowly, and during parts of the roll particularly 90 degrees off "flat" there is no lift and you're going to be falling. I'm reminded of the tragic crash of a B-52 illustrating a similar circumstance, and this was the pilot's last flight before retiring https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6io8Tjv7xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6io8Tjv7xk
- themadturk 4y ago
  The Dash-80 roll was a 1-G maneuver that didn't strain the airframe at all. Local legend says that single barrel roll was enough to convince an airline industry skeptical of jet aircraft to open their checkbooks. Boeing -- in the person of Tex Johnston -- changed the world that day.
- aeturnum 4y ago
  Thank you - I had never seen it. This is great.
- rconti 4y ago
  The only thing I can think is that it looks dangerous to casual observers, and that's the furthest thing Boeing and the airlines that purchase from them want potential passengers thinking.
- numpad0 4y ago
  Based on my “flight” experience in MSFS and various other games, you have to start high enough to complete a barrel roll, and you have to have good control surface authority that allows such deep rolls. At some scale it becomes hard to start high enough and finish it quick enough. It’s not a big deal in a clean F-15C to start a barrel roll, change minds, and add a full right deflection for 1s to recover to a level flight. But in a larger and non-manauver-oriented planes like a 747, you might find out that the aircraft under present circumstances cannot command more pitch or roll rates to transition from a high-speed inverted descent to a desired positive climb situation before the altimeter indication would reach zero or below. The latter was not so fun. Overall, I think it’s reasonable that “the suits” were not embracing it. The test pilots made their point, the world witnessed it, any further attempts weren’t strictly necessary, and frankly would have been scary.
blamazon 4y ago
That very plane is on display at the Udvar-Hazy center of the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, at Dulles airport. Plane nerds MUST go there!! Incredible place. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_F._Udvar-Hazy_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_F._Udvar-Hazy_Center
- exhilaration 4y ago
  Agreed, it's the best museum in the DC area.
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ordu 4y ago
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ekianjo 4y ago
youtube video of the barrel roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE

isaacdl 4y ago

Should note that's a 707 that Tex Johnston rolled, not a 747. I'm not aware of any barrel rolls performed in a 747.

aeturnum 4y ago
Oh good note lol! I misremembered
turnsout 4y ago
FTA: "In his Boeing office, he [Tex] hung a sign that proclaimed, 'One test is worth a thousand opinions.'" I need that sign. ha
kloch 4y ago
It wasn't even a 707, it was a prototype model 367-80. There were some unusually significant structural differences between the prototype dash 80 and production 707's, for example: > The 132 in (3,400 mm) wide fuselage of the Dash 80 was large enough for four-abreast (two-plus-two) seating like the Stratocruiser. Answering customers' demands and under Douglas competition, Boeing soon realized this would not provide a viable payload, so it widened the fuselage to 144 in (3,660 mm) to allow five-abreast seating and use of the KC-135's tooling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707
- jefftk 4y ago
  Those two pages disagree. Your quote is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80 has "The Dash 80 fuselage was wide enough at 132 inches (335 cm) for five-abreast seating; two on one side of the aisle and three on the other. The fuselage diameter for the production KC-135 was widened to 144 inches (366 cm) and Boeing originally hoped to build the 707 fuselage with that width. By the time the Boeing company committed to production, the decision had been made to design the production model 707 as a six-abreast design"
- throwawayx134ax 4y ago
  It's in the wikipedia article, but just want to call something out: That particular airframe 367-80 is in the Air and Space Udvar-Hazy museum at Dulles. It is gorgeous. The 747s first airframe is at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, and you can _go inside it_. https://www.museumofflight.org/aircraft/boeing-747-121 https://www.museumofflight.org/aircraft/boeing-747-121
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- Aeolun 4y ago
  They added 26 centimeters. Just barely enough to fit another person. Seriously, what were they planning to transport? Pixies?
  - paledot 4y ago
    The aisle width and/or chair clearance probably changed as well. Indeed, if only 26 cm was required to add another seat to each row, there must have been substantial wasted space with four-abreast seating.

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fsckboy 4y ago

there's film of Tex Johnston's Dash-80 barrel roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk many years later, Boeing Chief Test Pilot John Cashman stated that just before he piloted the maiden flight of the Boeing 777 on Jun. 12, 1994, his last instructions from then Boeing President Phil Condit were “No rolls”. -- anecdote from https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-tex-johnston-barrel-rolled-a-boeing-707-airliner/ https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-tex-johnston-barre... I wonder why "the suits" at Boeing are so against the barrel rolls? The pilots all agree it's not that big a deal, not dangerous, and anybody watching is going to love it. this article https://www.straightdope.com/21341407/is-it-possible-to-loop-or-roll-a-747-jet https://www.straightdope.com/21341407/is-it-possible-to-loop... says that the bigger the plane, the more dangerous because it will roll more slowly, and during parts of the roll particularly 90 degrees off "flat" there is no lift and you're going to be falling. I'm reminded of the tragic crash of a B-52 illustrating a similar circumstance, and this was the pilot's last flight before retiring https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6io8Tjv7xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6io8Tjv7xk

themadturk 4y ago
The Dash-80 roll was a 1-G maneuver that didn't strain the airframe at all. Local legend says that single barrel roll was enough to convince an airline industry skeptical of jet aircraft to open their checkbooks. Boeing -- in the person of Tex Johnston -- changed the world that day.
aeturnum 4y ago
Thank you - I had never seen it. This is great.
rconti 4y ago
The only thing I can think is that it looks dangerous to casual observers, and that's the furthest thing Boeing and the airlines that purchase from them want potential passengers thinking.
numpad0 4y ago
Based on my “flight” experience in MSFS and various other games, you have to start high enough to complete a barrel roll, and you have to have good control surface authority that allows such deep rolls. At some scale it becomes hard to start high enough and finish it quick enough. It’s not a big deal in a clean F-15C to start a barrel roll, change minds, and add a full right deflection for 1s to recover to a level flight. But in a larger and non-manauver-oriented planes like a 747, you might find out that the aircraft under present circumstances cannot command more pitch or roll rates to transition from a high-speed inverted descent to a desired positive climb situation before the altimeter indication would reach zero or below. The latter was not so fun. Overall, I think it’s reasonable that “the suits” were not embracing it. The test pilots made their point, the world witnessed it, any further attempts weren’t strictly necessary, and frankly would have been scary.

blamazon 4y ago

That very plane is on display at the Udvar-Hazy center of the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, at Dulles airport. Plane nerds MUST go there!! Incredible place. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_F._Udvar-Hazy_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_F._Udvar-Hazy_Center

exhilaration 4y ago
Agreed, it's the best museum in the DC area.

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ordu 4y ago

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ekianjo 4y ago

youtube video of the barrel roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE