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Indeed. It is surprising how often I've been chastised for saying that some people are smarter than others. Relatedly I believe that some people are just inca

Indeed. It is surprising how often I've been chastised for saying that some people are smarter than others. Relatedly I believe that some people are just incapable of learning, for example, college algebra. As an extreme example can a mentally disabled person learn college algebra?

nerdponx 4y ago
It's worth chastisting a little bit, because "smart" is at best an oversimplification. I wrote at length about this in another post, but the tldr is that, in expectation, most people are good at some things and bad at others. If I'm good at university-level mathematics but terrible at woodworking, am I smarter than someone who is good at woodworking but has a hard time wrapping their head around group theory? Case in point: I struggled in my algebra class and developed no useful intuition for groups until years later, but by most conventional standards I am a moderately intelligent person.
- syzarian 4y ago
  Of course smart is a vague term and it's not one that can be precisely defined or measured. However, let's consider the question, Can a mentally disabled person learn college algebra? The answer is yes or no, or some can but others can't. Within the context of college algebra and considering no other areas is it safe to say that some people are smarter than others? I think clearly the answer is yes. Of course a person not smart in college algebra might have genius level talent in programming, writing, art, or some other area. I'm smarter than the vast majority of people in the world when it comes to mathematics but am completely useless when it comes to engineering, art, writing, physics, and other areas. Saying one is bad at college algebra is not a denigration, it is an assertion of fact and not in any way a determinant on one's worthiness. I teach mathematics at a university. A large majority of my colleagues think that everyone is equally capable of learning college algebra. I think they are wrong. I think it is obvious they are wrong. They think any assertion that some people college algebra must be rooted in racism or other terrible biases that one has. Academicians ought not dogmatically cling to notions that are easily disprovable. Namely, it is clear that some people - mentally disabled for instance - can't learn college algebra. We should not shy away from confronting uncomfortable truths.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    We also calibrate our definition of smartness to expectations. I say my cat is smart because he opens the front door to let in his deer friends. That doesn’t mean I think he can learn algebra. (Meanwhile, the beagle never figured out how to walk on the same side of a tree as me while on leash.)
  - Tams80 4y ago
    I think that is a very dangerous hole those academicians have dug themselves into. And not even healthy for themselves as they're surely always on the look out for the bogeyman? I agree, natural aptitude absolutely is a thing. I'm somewhat smart, but maths does not come readily to me no matter what I try. And don't even get me started on music - which I have brute-forced myself into being barely able to play.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > A large majority of my colleagues think that everyone is equally capable of learning college algebra. They have to hold that view, though, else their reason for existence disappears. How can students justify the high cost of hiring a professor, accepted on the premise of being able to make it up with higher future earnings, if they realize that the reason there is a spectrum of incomes is because some people can't rise into higher paying work? You and I know that the mentally disabled person will never rise into a $500,000 per year job, no matter how hard they try, because of their disability. But your colleagues have to suggest that the mentally disabled person won't only because that person hasn't attended their classes. Their entire marketing strategy of getting students into their seats rests on it. Failure to communicate that to students means they soon find themselves out of job.
    - imtringued 4y ago
      How is this supposed to be good faith advice? The mentally disabled person may earn $15/h as a janitor or $25/h in some high productivity job that would usually pay $60/h and requires a college education but also has some accomodations for their disability. Mental disability isn't linear and it isn't a discrete yes or no either. It's like everyone here is taking some extreme edge case as the baseline for mental disability where it is immediately obvious that they can throw them into the "too dumb" bucket.
- qup 4y ago
  > If I'm good at university-level mathematics but terrible at woodworking, am I smarter than someone who is good at woodworking but has a hard time wrapping their head around group theory We don't have enough information to say. But what's almost certainly true is that one of you is smarter than the other. I think a useful analogy is smart = compute, wisdom/knowledge=data. Your example is not great because "woodworking" is primarily a knowledge game. Nothing is complex to the point you can't understand it. University-level mathematics is less obvious--there's certainly a knowledge aspect--but I would stay largely a compute game. Almost all people can become top-tier at knowledge games, not nearly as many at compute games.
  - WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
    > Your example is not great because "woodworking" is primarily a knowledge game. I think his example is very good if he requires much more effort to understand straightforward woodworking concepts. It might not be that he can't be an average woodworker but that it takes him 5x more effort - and after just 3x more effort he's kind of done.
    - qup 4y ago
      Sure, if that were true. But it's not. Anyone who can understand college algebra can understand woodworking concepts, because woodworking concepts have virtually no cognitive complexity. Source: I learned college algebra, and I have my woodshop 20 yards from me.
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      A better example would be my ability in strategy games such as checkers, chess, bridge, et alia. I'm generally worse at such games than most of my friends, none of whom have any special training or aptitude for strategy games.
- epistemer 4y ago
  Jim Simons is a great example. Has made 28 billion from algorithmic trading, has Chern–Simons form named after him in math but has said he sucks at computer programming because he can't remember syntax well enough. If he was 50 years younger he probably would just be a very mediocre programmer and not have "wasted" his time with this other intellectual activity. Einstein would be a data entry clerk trying to get a job writing javascript. I suspect with so many more educated people we have so many more true genius level minds than a 100 years ago but we have narrowed economically useful intellectual life to such a degree that 99% of them are doing well paid sub-optimal bullshit with their genius unexpressed.
throwawaysalome 4y ago
can a mentally disabled person learn college algebra? Can a paraplegic play college football? I don't get your insistence on catechising the obvious.
siva7 4y ago
Giving an "extreme" example turns your example into a flawed logic or apples/oranges comparison which gives no new insight into the original argument anymore.
- syzarian 4y ago
  I think you don’t understand the what constitutes flawed logic. If gave a counterexample to the statement: Everyone can learn college algebra. Therefore this statement is not true. We are then left we needing to modify the statement. What is true is the following: Some people, but not everyone, can learn college algebra. This is an uncomfortable statement for a lot of people because the inevitable follow up is: Who can and who can’t learn college algebra?. Relatedly, one must confront the idea that not everyone is college material. Maybe too many people are going to college and this is why so many in college are struggling in basic courses. I could go on. Your post appears naive in that you don’t seem to have thought through the implications of the idea that not everyone can learn college algebra.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    I would say that anybody without an intellectual disability can learn college algebra. There is a lack of motivation and a lack of training that prevents people from succeeding.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > I would say that anybody without an intellectual disability can learn college algebra. I think that's a stretch, unless you expand the meaning of "intellectual disability". I would agree that considerably more people can succeed than currently do because effort can make up for a lot, but that's a different claim. People have different working memory capacity, different abilities to reason deductively and considerably more differences on various other metrics of cognitive performance. There are as many dimensions to cognitive performance as there are ways to measure athletic performance, and people fall on very different parts of this spectrum. With significant effort over time, I can make up for athletic deficiencies and become a pretty good basketball player, but being 5'9" I almost certainly would never be able to make a college basketball team let alone the NBA. I'm not sure why this same logic applied to cognitive abilities is so controversial.
gsatic 4y ago
Einstein quite frequently messed up his math. But he was lucky to be surrounded by some excellent minds that regularly pulled him out of holes and kept him on the right track. One person's intelligence doesn't matter at all if they are surrounded by idiots, or they are stuck in environments that focuses their minds on bullshit (eg Google - lot bright people there working on pure shit)

nerdponx 4y ago

It's worth chastisting a little bit, because "smart" is at best an oversimplification. I wrote at length about this in another post, but the tldr is that, in expectation, most people are good at some things and bad at others. If I'm good at university-level mathematics but terrible at woodworking, am I smarter than someone who is good at woodworking but has a hard time wrapping their head around group theory? Case in point: I struggled in my algebra class and developed no useful intuition for groups until years later, but by most conventional standards I am a moderately intelligent person.

syzarian 4y ago
Of course smart is a vague term and it's not one that can be precisely defined or measured. However, let's consider the question, Can a mentally disabled person learn college algebra? The answer is yes or no, or some can but others can't. Within the context of college algebra and considering no other areas is it safe to say that some people are smarter than others? I think clearly the answer is yes. Of course a person not smart in college algebra might have genius level talent in programming, writing, art, or some other area. I'm smarter than the vast majority of people in the world when it comes to mathematics but am completely useless when it comes to engineering, art, writing, physics, and other areas. Saying one is bad at college algebra is not a denigration, it is an assertion of fact and not in any way a determinant on one's worthiness. I teach mathematics at a university. A large majority of my colleagues think that everyone is equally capable of learning college algebra. I think they are wrong. I think it is obvious they are wrong. They think any assertion that some people college algebra must be rooted in racism or other terrible biases that one has. Academicians ought not dogmatically cling to notions that are easily disprovable. Namely, it is clear that some people - mentally disabled for instance - can't learn college algebra. We should not shy away from confronting uncomfortable truths.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  We also calibrate our definition of smartness to expectations. I say my cat is smart because he opens the front door to let in his deer friends. That doesn’t mean I think he can learn algebra. (Meanwhile, the beagle never figured out how to walk on the same side of a tree as me while on leash.)
- Tams80 4y ago
  I think that is a very dangerous hole those academicians have dug themselves into. And not even healthy for themselves as they're surely always on the look out for the bogeyman? I agree, natural aptitude absolutely is a thing. I'm somewhat smart, but maths does not come readily to me no matter what I try. And don't even get me started on music - which I have brute-forced myself into being barely able to play.
- randomdata 4y ago
  > A large majority of my colleagues think that everyone is equally capable of learning college algebra. They have to hold that view, though, else their reason for existence disappears. How can students justify the high cost of hiring a professor, accepted on the premise of being able to make it up with higher future earnings, if they realize that the reason there is a spectrum of incomes is because some people can't rise into higher paying work? You and I know that the mentally disabled person will never rise into a $500,000 per year job, no matter how hard they try, because of their disability. But your colleagues have to suggest that the mentally disabled person won't only because that person hasn't attended their classes. Their entire marketing strategy of getting students into their seats rests on it. Failure to communicate that to students means they soon find themselves out of job.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    How is this supposed to be good faith advice? The mentally disabled person may earn $15/h as a janitor or $25/h in some high productivity job that would usually pay $60/h and requires a college education but also has some accomodations for their disability. Mental disability isn't linear and it isn't a discrete yes or no either. It's like everyone here is taking some extreme edge case as the baseline for mental disability where it is immediately obvious that they can throw them into the "too dumb" bucket.
qup 4y ago
> If I'm good at university-level mathematics but terrible at woodworking, am I smarter than someone who is good at woodworking but has a hard time wrapping their head around group theory We don't have enough information to say. But what's almost certainly true is that one of you is smarter than the other. I think a useful analogy is smart = compute, wisdom/knowledge=data. Your example is not great because "woodworking" is primarily a knowledge game. Nothing is complex to the point you can't understand it. University-level mathematics is less obvious--there's certainly a knowledge aspect--but I would stay largely a compute game. Almost all people can become top-tier at knowledge games, not nearly as many at compute games.
- WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
  > Your example is not great because "woodworking" is primarily a knowledge game. I think his example is very good if he requires much more effort to understand straightforward woodworking concepts. It might not be that he can't be an average woodworker but that it takes him 5x more effort - and after just 3x more effort he's kind of done.
  - qup 4y ago
    Sure, if that were true. But it's not. Anyone who can understand college algebra can understand woodworking concepts, because woodworking concepts have virtually no cognitive complexity. Source: I learned college algebra, and I have my woodshop 20 yards from me.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    A better example would be my ability in strategy games such as checkers, chess, bridge, et alia. I'm generally worse at such games than most of my friends, none of whom have any special training or aptitude for strategy games.
epistemer 4y ago
Jim Simons is a great example. Has made 28 billion from algorithmic trading, has Chern–Simons form named after him in math but has said he sucks at computer programming because he can't remember syntax well enough. If he was 50 years younger he probably would just be a very mediocre programmer and not have "wasted" his time with this other intellectual activity. Einstein would be a data entry clerk trying to get a job writing javascript. I suspect with so many more educated people we have so many more true genius level minds than a 100 years ago but we have narrowed economically useful intellectual life to such a degree that 99% of them are doing well paid sub-optimal bullshit with their genius unexpressed.

throwawaysalome 4y ago

can a mentally disabled person learn college algebra? Can a paraplegic play college football? I don't get your insistence on catechising the obvious.

siva7 4y ago

Giving an "extreme" example turns your example into a flawed logic or apples/oranges comparison which gives no new insight into the original argument anymore.

syzarian 4y ago
I think you don’t understand the what constitutes flawed logic. If gave a counterexample to the statement: Everyone can learn college algebra. Therefore this statement is not true. We are then left we needing to modify the statement. What is true is the following: Some people, but not everyone, can learn college algebra. This is an uncomfortable statement for a lot of people because the inevitable follow up is: Who can and who can’t learn college algebra?. Relatedly, one must confront the idea that not everyone is college material. Maybe too many people are going to college and this is why so many in college are struggling in basic courses. I could go on. Your post appears naive in that you don’t seem to have thought through the implications of the idea that not everyone can learn college algebra.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  I would say that anybody without an intellectual disability can learn college algebra. There is a lack of motivation and a lack of training that prevents people from succeeding.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > I would say that anybody without an intellectual disability can learn college algebra. I think that's a stretch, unless you expand the meaning of "intellectual disability". I would agree that considerably more people can succeed than currently do because effort can make up for a lot, but that's a different claim. People have different working memory capacity, different abilities to reason deductively and considerably more differences on various other metrics of cognitive performance. There are as many dimensions to cognitive performance as there are ways to measure athletic performance, and people fall on very different parts of this spectrum. With significant effort over time, I can make up for athletic deficiencies and become a pretty good basketball player, but being 5'9" I almost certainly would never be able to make a college basketball team let alone the NBA. I'm not sure why this same logic applied to cognitive abilities is so controversial.

gsatic 4y ago

Einstein quite frequently messed up his math. But he was lucky to be surrounded by some excellent minds that regularly pulled him out of holes and kept him on the right track. One person's intelligence doesn't matter at all if they are surrounded by idiots, or they are stuck in environments that focuses their minds on bullshit (eg Google - lot bright people there working on pure shit)