7 ms·

The medium is the message dudes. At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. Whatever the true counterculture will be

The medium is the message dudes. At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. Whatever the true counterculture will be, it won’t be subject to the Internet and its all-seeing eye. It won’t be made out of memes and flame wars. No matter what the political bent, we’re all very much a captive audience online. “Master’s house/master’s tools” and all that.

yadoomerta 4y ago
perfect comment <3
shanebellone 4y ago
"medium is the message" That brought back grad school memories. The Internet is an excellent example of this. We're watching -- in real-time -- the medium challenge society (at all levels and across boundaries). The Internet is still an infant; yet look at its impact.
- seydor 4y ago
  Really? The internet looks old. A teenager in the 90s, aged fast in the 2000s, got a family in 2010s and now is seeking to police everyone through its retirement.
  - shanebellone 4y ago
    The medium hasn't changed. We're still on "Version 1".
    - seydor 4y ago
      We see versions but maybe there's a lifecycle to every medium. I m sure when TV was invented people made blue-sky predictions about how it would change the world for the better and not become the means that rich people use to rule over democratic audiences. The internet we know was the medium of one-to-all communication but it seems we -very soon- stumbled on the limits of such communication with all the censorship & tracking . Maybe the next medium will use some other mode, where one-to-all does not matter anymore And while the internet changed societies, it did not "change societies", as in the western world democracies function pretty much as they did in the 80s, but with digital tools instead of analog. We did not see huge changes like when printing was invented: The world map is still the same
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    In terms of information history, we're still in the newborn stage. We don't even have a single generation that has been born and died with access to instant worldwide communication - that will happen when I and my cohort die. I was one of the first kids to be able to independently access information without my local community adults gatekeeping it. It's one of those little things that becomes a big thing in hindsight, like being able to read the Bible in the vernacular. Gen Z (and maaaybe some Millennials like myself but that's questionable) are the first generation to grow up with geographically-independent hobbies and subcultures. Even the old stodgy or corporatized Internet has this property.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    It is starting to even have a shape. People just stopped giving up on service formats (how are you supposed to read instant messages again?) all the time because they like some other one better. Society has mostly just discovered it exists.
nemo44x 4y ago
People should read “Gravity's Rainbow” - or at least an analysis of it. A major point/theme is that no matter what you do, if it’s useful/profitable/empowering/etc then it will be co-opted by “the man” or whatever. There’s a never ending graveyard of counter culture artifacts that existed to spit on the mainstream that were nearly merged in, packaged, and sold back to the hordes of consumers that think they’re outside of it all. It’s hard to listen to Rage Against the Machine without laughing. In essence, the message in the book is the only way to win is to not play. To live as far under the radar as possible. To just not participate. That you won’t change it because it will just co-opt you making it bigger and a more dangerous war machine where you’re a complicit participant.
- pram 4y ago
  This process has been called "recuperation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)
  - ttyprintk 4y ago
    Or maybe a little earlier, “ the producer of mass culture has no use for experience, his own or another’s, which cannot be immediately shared. What is endured by one human being alone seems to him unreal, or even an effect of madness.” Harold Rosenberg, 1948 https://www.commentary.org/articles/harold-rosenberg-2/the-herd-of-independent-mindshas-the-avant-garde-its-own-mass-culture/ https://www.commentary.org/articles/harold-rosenberg-2/the-h...
- yamazakiwi 4y ago
  I've read Gravity's Rainbow and it's very melodramatic but a good read. What is "winning" in this case? A feeling of liberation through avoiding the main path can be useful for some, even if life is deterministic. >It’s hard to listen to Rage Against the Machine without laughing. People like music for all kinds of reasons...and I see what you're getting at, but this example is a little cheesy. "I think you're all sheep for thinking your not sheep and it makes me laugh." is essentially what I'm reading. While counter culture does get co-opted, it's not like RATM was gonna actually do anything to help us socially since music had already been commodified for a long time. Counter Culture can even START co-opted e.g. Label Music/Industry Plants. Where this book misses is the failure to ask the question: What is the purpose of viewing yourself or acting in favor of counter culture. To look cool? To feel powerful? If those things work in your life model who cares if it's not the most "punk" thing ever. Some people live their whole lives happy being "posers" and I would consider that successful for them.
cheschire 4y ago
Another commenter mentioned off grid living. It reminded me of the bohemian communes of the 60's and I wondered if technology is destroying this concept as well by making it so easy for suburban chads to feel "off grid" with solar power and three-fuel generators and even cars now that don't require regular visits to a gas station. Easy to overlook how they're still using city water, sewage, trash collection, and shop for even basic things at stores though. I think you may be right. Counter culture today may simply be being offline.
anon223345 4y ago
Excellent point, and Medium is the Message is an excellent book
erybodyknows 4y ago
On this topic: part of counterculture used to be the ability to *signal* your identification with the group to other group members. Styles of dress, certain symbols or artifacts have all been commonly used. How does one signal to others their social media rejectionism in the age of social media communication ubiquity?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  Socialize in person. I don’t even remember the last time I went somewhere with the intention of socializing but without any knowledge or plan about who would be there (e.g. in my small town, there was a specific place teenagers used to just go to hang out without specific plans to do so, meeting with whoever happened to also show up).
- runarberg 4y ago
  A dumb phone, an old walkman, etc. but also some of the following: second hand clothes, a second hand bicycle, a car from the 90s, a cheap second hand watch etc. The gathering spaces include your local library, your small local music venue/record store, and your local print shops and book cafés.
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    “ local library, your small local music venue/record store, and your local print shops and book cafés” With the except of publicly funded libraries, it might be notable to suggest that, in many/most communities, everything else on this list is struggling to exist.
    - runarberg 4y ago
      I guess that is a point in favor of this being a counter culture. It is my perception of history that venues that cater to counter culture tend to struggle financially, at least since the Reaganonics of the 1980s.
standardUser 4y ago
But "being online" is where millions of people find and engage in countercultures. You may be underestimating the vastness of online spaces and the communities that exist in those spaces (many of which you can't find by Googling).
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
I mostly agree although just because something uses the pipes doesn't mean they are subject to that. Federation, onion sites, unindexed sites, something new entirely that runs on TCP/IP
TbobbyZ 4y ago
I agree. It’s a privilege to be able to make a living without the internet.
- eastof 4y ago
  I know what you are getting at, but just want to point out there are still plenty of offline jobs out there which are very much not privileged. For example, the independent recycler rummaging through your bin at night is likely all offline but they're not "privileged" by any means. From their perspective, those making money online are very privleged.
  - ttyprintk 4y ago
    Different topic. It is a privilege to make a living without using asynchronous communication. The class you describe is just as attuned to texting and collaborating with others using smartphones.
bena 4y ago
Which I think signals a complete 180 from my lifetime. Because, there was a time when being online was the counterculture. If you habituated newsgroups, IRC, BBSes, etc, you were on the fringe. Now, all of that is commonplace in some fashion. Newsgroups are basically places like this, reddit, even Facebook to some extent. IRC has its analogs in Discord, Slack, etc. BBSes are any online game community.
dTal 4y ago
Or as a great person once said, "The Revolution will not be televised."
- derrida 4y ago
  gil scott heron (such a good song) 𝄞 "you will not be able to stay home, brother... you will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out" as u/neonnoodle said " At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. " I've been lucky enough to spend long periods in such hehe (forest monasteries)
godshatter 4y ago
I was going to remark that people like myself that avoid (most) social media and avoid tracking via vpns and so forth are counter cultural right now. I'm still having to explain to people why I'm not on Facebook all the time.
- uoaei 4y ago
  I routinely get eyerolls for asking people to ask me first before putting pictures of me up on the internet.
  - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
    I have cut contact with, and purposely avoid extended family functions for this reason alone. It is beyond me why people can't seem to respect you and your privacy.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    I just had that conversation yesterday. The only pictures of me that exist are in relation to my current employer, and only because they post headshots of all new execs in the local paper (small towns are weird like that). Otherwise, I flat do not exist online. People are ASTOUNDED when I ask them to crop me out, or to ask my permission before posting with me in it. I'm always polite, but people act like I asked them to lick the bottom of my foot. It's very strange.
    - snozolli 4y ago
      People are ASTOUNDED when I ask them to crop me out, or to ask my permission before posting with me in it. I'm always polite, but people act like I asked them to lick the bottom of my foot. Most people are happy to have photos with themselves in it. Like it or not, you're the strange one in this situation.
      - uoaei 4y ago
        Most people are happy when their friends value their preferences and choices about when consent is given.
uoaei 4y ago
Absolutely. It is important to remember that consensus opinions on narrow internet forums like HN or even Twitter do not generally represent the default positions that people take on most issues. Often, they are not even in the same wheelhouse. This extends readily also to the media spheres in which people immerse themselves. The consensus on cable news, for instance, hardly represents a good-faith analysis.
undersuit 4y ago
You dredged up an old memory of a past HN article. Paul Lutus is this counterculture and his story is 40+ years old. https://www.atariarchives.org/deli/cottage_computer_programming.php https://www.atariarchives.org/deli/cottage_computer_programm...
JALTU 4y ago
Yes, this - and especially as a parent. No judgement here, just observing that most parents around me don't think about what a phone/mobile device does to their kids and what it teaches them about what "normal" is. My 14 year old does not have a phone of his own, he uses one occasionally at home only, loosely supervised. He sees the difference, and he knows how to blend in. When he's on his own, he is on his own. I can only hope he won't be owned.
NovaPenguin 4y ago
Bingo. I am not saying "Hey look at me, I am counter culture!" I am just being me. But usually, I am online only about once or twice a week nowadays and even then it is only for about 10-20 minutes at a time. I suspect like folks going back to dumb phones, magazine subscriptions - the embrace of the analog world again to some degree. This is where the rejection of the mainstream will probably hit the road.

yadoomerta 4y ago

perfect comment <3

shanebellone 4y ago

"medium is the message" That brought back grad school memories. The Internet is an excellent example of this. We're watching -- in real-time -- the medium challenge society (at all levels and across boundaries). The Internet is still an infant; yet look at its impact.

seydor 4y ago
Really? The internet looks old. A teenager in the 90s, aged fast in the 2000s, got a family in 2010s and now is seeking to police everyone through its retirement.
- shanebellone 4y ago
  The medium hasn't changed. We're still on "Version 1".
  - seydor 4y ago
    We see versions but maybe there's a lifecycle to every medium. I m sure when TV was invented people made blue-sky predictions about how it would change the world for the better and not become the means that rich people use to rule over democratic audiences. The internet we know was the medium of one-to-all communication but it seems we -very soon- stumbled on the limits of such communication with all the censorship & tracking . Maybe the next medium will use some other mode, where one-to-all does not matter anymore And while the internet changed societies, it did not "change societies", as in the western world democracies function pretty much as they did in the 80s, but with digital tools instead of analog. We did not see huge changes like when printing was invented: The world map is still the same
- Mezzie 4y ago
  In terms of information history, we're still in the newborn stage. We don't even have a single generation that has been born and died with access to instant worldwide communication - that will happen when I and my cohort die. I was one of the first kids to be able to independently access information without my local community adults gatekeeping it. It's one of those little things that becomes a big thing in hindsight, like being able to read the Bible in the vernacular. Gen Z (and maaaybe some Millennials like myself but that's questionable) are the first generation to grow up with geographically-independent hobbies and subcultures. Even the old stodgy or corporatized Internet has this property.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  It is starting to even have a shape. People just stopped giving up on service formats (how are you supposed to read instant messages again?) all the time because they like some other one better. Society has mostly just discovered it exists.

nemo44x 4y ago

People should read “Gravity's Rainbow” - or at least an analysis of it. A major point/theme is that no matter what you do, if it’s useful/profitable/empowering/etc then it will be co-opted by “the man” or whatever. There’s a never ending graveyard of counter culture artifacts that existed to spit on the mainstream that were nearly merged in, packaged, and sold back to the hordes of consumers that think they’re outside of it all. It’s hard to listen to Rage Against the Machine without laughing. In essence, the message in the book is the only way to win is to not play. To live as far under the radar as possible. To just not participate. That you won’t change it because it will just co-opt you making it bigger and a more dangerous war machine where you’re a complicit participant.

pram 4y ago
This process has been called "recuperation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)
- ttyprintk 4y ago
  Or maybe a little earlier, “ the producer of mass culture has no use for experience, his own or another’s, which cannot be immediately shared. What is endured by one human being alone seems to him unreal, or even an effect of madness.” Harold Rosenberg, 1948 https://www.commentary.org/articles/harold-rosenberg-2/the-herd-of-independent-mindshas-the-avant-garde-its-own-mass-culture/ https://www.commentary.org/articles/harold-rosenberg-2/the-h...
yamazakiwi 4y ago
I've read Gravity's Rainbow and it's very melodramatic but a good read. What is "winning" in this case? A feeling of liberation through avoiding the main path can be useful for some, even if life is deterministic. >It’s hard to listen to Rage Against the Machine without laughing. People like music for all kinds of reasons...and I see what you're getting at, but this example is a little cheesy. "I think you're all sheep for thinking your not sheep and it makes me laugh." is essentially what I'm reading. While counter culture does get co-opted, it's not like RATM was gonna actually do anything to help us socially since music had already been commodified for a long time. Counter Culture can even START co-opted e.g. Label Music/Industry Plants. Where this book misses is the failure to ask the question: What is the purpose of viewing yourself or acting in favor of counter culture. To look cool? To feel powerful? If those things work in your life model who cares if it's not the most "punk" thing ever. Some people live their whole lives happy being "posers" and I would consider that successful for them.

cheschire 4y ago

Another commenter mentioned off grid living. It reminded me of the bohemian communes of the 60's and I wondered if technology is destroying this concept as well by making it so easy for suburban chads to feel "off grid" with solar power and three-fuel generators and even cars now that don't require regular visits to a gas station. Easy to overlook how they're still using city water, sewage, trash collection, and shop for even basic things at stores though. I think you may be right. Counter culture today may simply be being offline.

anon223345 4y ago

Excellent point, and Medium is the Message is an excellent book

erybodyknows 4y ago

On this topic: part of counterculture used to be the ability to *signal* your identification with the group to other group members. Styles of dress, certain symbols or artifacts have all been commonly used. How does one signal to others their social media rejectionism in the age of social media communication ubiquity?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
germinalphrase 4y ago
Socialize in person. I don’t even remember the last time I went somewhere with the intention of socializing but without any knowledge or plan about who would be there (e.g. in my small town, there was a specific place teenagers used to just go to hang out without specific plans to do so, meeting with whoever happened to also show up).
runarberg 4y ago
A dumb phone, an old walkman, etc. but also some of the following: second hand clothes, a second hand bicycle, a car from the 90s, a cheap second hand watch etc. The gathering spaces include your local library, your small local music venue/record store, and your local print shops and book cafés.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  “ local library, your small local music venue/record store, and your local print shops and book cafés” With the except of publicly funded libraries, it might be notable to suggest that, in many/most communities, everything else on this list is struggling to exist.
  - runarberg 4y ago
    I guess that is a point in favor of this being a counter culture. It is my perception of history that venues that cater to counter culture tend to struggle financially, at least since the Reaganonics of the 1980s.

standardUser 4y ago

But "being online" is where millions of people find and engage in countercultures. You may be underestimating the vastness of online spaces and the communities that exist in those spaces (many of which you can't find by Googling).

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

I mostly agree although just because something uses the pipes doesn't mean they are subject to that. Federation, onion sites, unindexed sites, something new entirely that runs on TCP/IP

TbobbyZ 4y ago

I agree. It’s a privilege to be able to make a living without the internet.

eastof 4y ago
I know what you are getting at, but just want to point out there are still plenty of offline jobs out there which are very much not privileged. For example, the independent recycler rummaging through your bin at night is likely all offline but they're not "privileged" by any means. From their perspective, those making money online are very privleged.
- ttyprintk 4y ago
  Different topic. It is a privilege to make a living without using asynchronous communication. The class you describe is just as attuned to texting and collaborating with others using smartphones.

bena 4y ago

Which I think signals a complete 180 from my lifetime. Because, there was a time when being online was the counterculture. If you habituated newsgroups, IRC, BBSes, etc, you were on the fringe. Now, all of that is commonplace in some fashion. Newsgroups are basically places like this, reddit, even Facebook to some extent. IRC has its analogs in Discord, Slack, etc. BBSes are any online game community.

dTal 4y ago

Or as a great person once said, "The Revolution will not be televised."

derrida 4y ago
gil scott heron (such a good song) 𝄞 "you will not be able to stay home, brother... you will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out" as u/neonnoodle said " At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. " I've been lucky enough to spend long periods in such hehe (forest monasteries)

godshatter 4y ago

I was going to remark that people like myself that avoid (most) social media and avoid tracking via vpns and so forth are counter cultural right now. I'm still having to explain to people why I'm not on Facebook all the time.

uoaei 4y ago
I routinely get eyerolls for asking people to ask me first before putting pictures of me up on the internet.
- PartiallyTyped 4y ago
  I have cut contact with, and purposely avoid extended family functions for this reason alone. It is beyond me why people can't seem to respect you and your privacy.
- Loughla 4y ago
  I just had that conversation yesterday. The only pictures of me that exist are in relation to my current employer, and only because they post headshots of all new execs in the local paper (small towns are weird like that). Otherwise, I flat do not exist online. People are ASTOUNDED when I ask them to crop me out, or to ask my permission before posting with me in it. I'm always polite, but people act like I asked them to lick the bottom of my foot. It's very strange.
  - snozolli 4y ago
    People are ASTOUNDED when I ask them to crop me out, or to ask my permission before posting with me in it. I'm always polite, but people act like I asked them to lick the bottom of my foot. Most people are happy to have photos with themselves in it. Like it or not, you're the strange one in this situation.
    - uoaei 4y ago
      Most people are happy when their friends value their preferences and choices about when consent is given.

uoaei 4y ago

Absolutely. It is important to remember that consensus opinions on narrow internet forums like HN or even Twitter do not generally represent the default positions that people take on most issues. Often, they are not even in the same wheelhouse. This extends readily also to the media spheres in which people immerse themselves. The consensus on cable news, for instance, hardly represents a good-faith analysis.

undersuit 4y ago

You dredged up an old memory of a past HN article. Paul Lutus is this counterculture and his story is 40+ years old. https://www.atariarchives.org/deli/cottage_computer_programming.php https://www.atariarchives.org/deli/cottage_computer_programm...

JALTU 4y ago

Yes, this - and especially as a parent. No judgement here, just observing that most parents around me don't think about what a phone/mobile device does to their kids and what it teaches them about what "normal" is. My 14 year old does not have a phone of his own, he uses one occasionally at home only, loosely supervised. He sees the difference, and he knows how to blend in. When he's on his own, he is on his own. I can only hope he won't be owned.

NovaPenguin 4y ago

Bingo. I am not saying "Hey look at me, I am counter culture!" I am just being me. But usually, I am online only about once or twice a week nowadays and even then it is only for about 10-20 minutes at a time. I suspect like folks going back to dumb phones, magazine subscriptions - the embrace of the analog world again to some degree. This is where the rejection of the mainstream will probably hit the road.