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> Remote work is great for: - People who want more quality time with family I'd argue it's great for people. In general. I don't have family, I can spend more

by atraac 4y ago

> Remote work is great for: - People who want more quality time with family I'd argue it's great for people. In general. I don't have family, I can spend more time with my dog, I can make morning or afternoon walk longer, I can get better at cooking cause I have more time, I have more time for hobbies, to deal with personal stuff, I can go to public institution or a doctor if I have to, without taking a day off since I can start 30min early, go after work and still get there before closing. The only downside to remote work IMO is lack of human contact and that it requires much more effort to actually be included.

doublerabbit 4y ago
I'll argue it's not and that the better alternative would be to have your own chosen days off. I've just started a new job for an enterprise company. It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. Myself having to introduce myself every-time. Trying to find someone to give me basic mentoring, even trying to understand the hierarchy. Not only does communications break down over email, messenger, people get the wrong intention of the email, if I wish to add input I have to encounter where it doesn't feel like I'm the bulldozer. Many skills are lost WFH. Code reviews suck over webcam, sharing knowledge is insanely hard and I'm not lucky to have a house with a spare room where I can dedicate to work. My own personal space is not an office nor I do I want it to be. The trip to and from work allows me to break work mode and have my own freedom without having a work laptop stashed underneath the desk. It may cost me £ to get in the office each day but heck do I prefer it. I'm 33. WFH is not for me, I find it hell.
- atraac 4y ago
  > better alternative would be to have your own chosen days off. Sure, I'll just let my dog sit for 10 hours straight on those other days. It might be a better alternative for YOU, but I doubt it's true for most peole who want fully remote work. > It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. (...) Trying to find someone to give me basic mentoring, even trying to understand the hierarchy. Sounds like a company issue, not a problem with WFH in particular. I work remotely while my whole team is hybrid in another country, we're doing perfectly fine, hell they even praise me for actually getting in touch all the time. You need a certain type of personality to be able to thrive in remote work. You need to be able to get people to talk and point you in the right direction, get the information you need yourself. Most people are not like that, most people need someone standing over their head to show them the way. > Not only does communications break down over email, messenger, people get the wrong intention of the email, if I wish to add input I have to encounter where it doesn't feel like I'm the bulldozer. Many skills are lost WFH. Sounds like a YOU issue. Emails are meant to be purely async. Messaging like Teams/Slack are meant to be more of an actual conversation. If people get wrong intentions from your emails or messages then you should work on your writing, not sure what does this have to do with WFH. They'll have the same bad impression from your emails even if you write them while sitting at the office. > Code reviews suck over webcam Who on earth does code review while calling with webcams? The whole idea of code review is for it to be asynchronous so you don't bother other people with context switching. If you meant pair coding, then yes, it's a bit more of a hassle. Still never an issue for me, we either whip out vscode/Rider, or simply share screen. Worked ok so far, but sure, sitting next to each other is always going to be better. > sharing knowledge is insanely hard Again, organizational issue, remote work encourages actually documenting stuff, not just saying openly in a meeting room "I will X because of Y" and proceeding to write meaningless code because "well... everyone noded in the room". I almost forced people at my new company to write comments both in code and Jira tasks, describe what was talked through during meetings or one on one calls. Everyone loves it after a while, refining tasks is much easier, finding a reason for why certain decisions were made is also suddenly much easier. > The trip to and from work allows me to break work mode and have my own freedom without having a work laptop stashed underneath the desk. Great for you, but I don't have to stash anything. If you work fully remotely you learn to divide business and pleasure. I do work and play from the same desk, my work laptop is gone after the day. Organizing your workplace is another issue that is more of a 'you' rather than WFH-bad. Again, remote work is not suited for everyone, but your arguments don't really explain why WFH would be bad. They just explain why you or your org is not suited for remote work. I started full remote fairly recently, I get paid much more because I can pick from many more offers(central EU), I have much more time for myself, my SO and my dog, I do many more things during the day that I otherwise wouldn't. It's amazing and at this point I will rather switch careers than go back to the office, especially since at current rate I will be mortgage free by the time I'm 35.
  - doublerabbit 4y ago
    And there the typical 35 year aggressive attitude I have to deal with daily. Your joking right in thinking that no communication is loss via email? Team, zoom meetings take away facial expressions and as someone with social blindness it makes my job harder to engage. Why so hostile? As from what I see the culture here, the prosperity that they give has been one of the I best fitted environments I've worked in. Very surprised especially for the industry. So no its not companies issue, its not a "ME" problem. Its a person issue, professional behaviour slips, people get sloppy. I don't want to divide work with pleasure. Why should I, so you can stay home with your dog? I want to come home and know for certain there is no essence of work present. Sometimes I need that complete downtime just to recover. Let my guard down without having to create some divide. At this point its moot. You have your view and I have mine. You won't consider from my perspective and I understand yours and the WFH perspective. Its always "WFH is amazing" when no one takes in to account that it doesn't work for others. Its a change that needs to happen, it does give benefits and it sounds like it does for you. Good. But my benefits are working in the office. Why is that hard to comprehend. I'm a SysAdmin and like being on premises of the hardware then a software developer like yourself (according to your profile).
    - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
      Forgive my confusion, but why do you specify needing space away from work now when the vast majority of your concerns prior was struggling with textual mediums? I could suggest if you want to be on prem, you can be. But none of that will address that not only do you want to be on prem you have frustration that other people are not. Couldn’t difficulty with communication be resolved via personal occupational therapy or coaching?
      - doublerabbit 4y ago
        But how do you identify if the issue is with you or them? If its you, sure you could. But if it's them, how so you convince that they have a problem? Why would it be my problem, when I get on with other folk? I find that talking in person, allows me to express what I'm wanting to express clearly. Its hard, but easier. Why can't a compromise be made where you have three days off and then the two you come in? Why does it have to be All X, none Y or vice versa. WFH shouldn't be having weeks off from the office. It should be a tool not a privilege.
- bregma 4y ago
  > I've just started a new job for an enterprise company. It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. Myself having to introduce myself every-time. Trying to find someone to give me basic mentoring, even trying to understand the hierarchy. It's interesting. I started a new job in a cube farm a few years ago after a decade of WFH and that describes my exact experience with that transition. I suspect it's all about corporate and workplace culture, not physical working arrangements.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  >It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. Can you call them on the phone?
  - doublerabbit 4y ago
    Sure, when they're not in some meeting, or marked online and not actually there. To ask questions is a pain having to ring them constantly after ending the previous call. Sure. one could argue that this would happen in the office too but at least you can grab their attention easier.
    - carlosjobim 4y ago
      One thing that works well is to keep the call going while the issue is being handled. So for example you ask for a solution and they tell you what to do, then you two can bullshit about other stuff while you're implementing the solution live and get back to the questions when you need help, in the same call.

by atraac 4y ago

doublerabbit 4y ago

I'll argue it's not and that the better alternative would be to have your own chosen days off. I've just started a new job for an enterprise company. It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. Myself having to introduce myself every-time. Trying to find someone to give me basic mentoring, even trying to understand the hierarchy. Not only does communications break down over email, messenger, people get the wrong intention of the email, if I wish to add input I have to encounter where it doesn't feel like I'm the bulldozer. Many skills are lost WFH. Code reviews suck over webcam, sharing knowledge is insanely hard and I'm not lucky to have a house with a spare room where I can dedicate to work. My own personal space is not an office nor I do I want it to be. The trip to and from work allows me to break work mode and have my own freedom without having a work laptop stashed underneath the desk. It may cost me £ to get in the office each day but heck do I prefer it. I'm 33. WFH is not for me, I find it hell.

atraac 4y ago
> better alternative would be to have your own chosen days off. Sure, I'll just let my dog sit for 10 hours straight on those other days. It might be a better alternative for YOU, but I doubt it's true for most peole who want fully remote work. > It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. (...) Trying to find someone to give me basic mentoring, even trying to understand the hierarchy. Sounds like a company issue, not a problem with WFH in particular. I work remotely while my whole team is hybrid in another country, we're doing perfectly fine, hell they even praise me for actually getting in touch all the time. You need a certain type of personality to be able to thrive in remote work. You need to be able to get people to talk and point you in the right direction, get the information you need yourself. Most people are not like that, most people need someone standing over their head to show them the way. > Not only does communications break down over email, messenger, people get the wrong intention of the email, if I wish to add input I have to encounter where it doesn't feel like I'm the bulldozer. Many skills are lost WFH. Sounds like a YOU issue. Emails are meant to be purely async. Messaging like Teams/Slack are meant to be more of an actual conversation. If people get wrong intentions from your emails or messages then you should work on your writing, not sure what does this have to do with WFH. They'll have the same bad impression from your emails even if you write them while sitting at the office. > Code reviews suck over webcam Who on earth does code review while calling with webcams? The whole idea of code review is for it to be asynchronous so you don't bother other people with context switching. If you meant pair coding, then yes, it's a bit more of a hassle. Still never an issue for me, we either whip out vscode/Rider, or simply share screen. Worked ok so far, but sure, sitting next to each other is always going to be better. > sharing knowledge is insanely hard Again, organizational issue, remote work encourages actually documenting stuff, not just saying openly in a meeting room "I will X because of Y" and proceeding to write meaningless code because "well... everyone noded in the room". I almost forced people at my new company to write comments both in code and Jira tasks, describe what was talked through during meetings or one on one calls. Everyone loves it after a while, refining tasks is much easier, finding a reason for why certain decisions were made is also suddenly much easier. > The trip to and from work allows me to break work mode and have my own freedom without having a work laptop stashed underneath the desk. Great for you, but I don't have to stash anything. If you work fully remotely you learn to divide business and pleasure. I do work and play from the same desk, my work laptop is gone after the day. Organizing your workplace is another issue that is more of a 'you' rather than WFH-bad. Again, remote work is not suited for everyone, but your arguments don't really explain why WFH would be bad. They just explain why you or your org is not suited for remote work. I started full remote fairly recently, I get paid much more because I can pick from many more offers(central EU), I have much more time for myself, my SO and my dog, I do many more things during the day that I otherwise wouldn't. It's amazing and at this point I will rather switch careers than go back to the office, especially since at current rate I will be mortgage free by the time I'm 35.
- doublerabbit 4y ago
  And there the typical 35 year aggressive attitude I have to deal with daily. Your joking right in thinking that no communication is loss via email? Team, zoom meetings take away facial expressions and as someone with social blindness it makes my job harder to engage. Why so hostile? As from what I see the culture here, the prosperity that they give has been one of the I best fitted environments I've worked in. Very surprised especially for the industry. So no its not companies issue, its not a "ME" problem. Its a person issue, professional behaviour slips, people get sloppy. I don't want to divide work with pleasure. Why should I, so you can stay home with your dog? I want to come home and know for certain there is no essence of work present. Sometimes I need that complete downtime just to recover. Let my guard down without having to create some divide. At this point its moot. You have your view and I have mine. You won't consider from my perspective and I understand yours and the WFH perspective. Its always "WFH is amazing" when no one takes in to account that it doesn't work for others. Its a change that needs to happen, it does give benefits and it sounds like it does for you. Good. But my benefits are working in the office. Why is that hard to comprehend. I'm a SysAdmin and like being on premises of the hardware then a software developer like yourself (according to your profile).
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    Forgive my confusion, but why do you specify needing space away from work now when the vast majority of your concerns prior was struggling with textual mediums? I could suggest if you want to be on prem, you can be. But none of that will address that not only do you want to be on prem you have frustration that other people are not. Couldn’t difficulty with communication be resolved via personal occupational therapy or coaching?
    - doublerabbit 4y ago
      But how do you identify if the issue is with you or them? If its you, sure you could. But if it's them, how so you convince that they have a problem? Why would it be my problem, when I get on with other folk? I find that talking in person, allows me to express what I'm wanting to express clearly. Its hard, but easier. Why can't a compromise be made where you have three days off and then the two you come in? Why does it have to be All X, none Y or vice versa. WFH shouldn't be having weeks off from the office. It should be a tool not a privilege.
bregma 4y ago
> I've just started a new job for an enterprise company. It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. Myself having to introduce myself every-time. Trying to find someone to give me basic mentoring, even trying to understand the hierarchy. It's interesting. I started a new job in a cube farm a few years ago after a decade of WFH and that describes my exact experience with that transition. I suspect it's all about corporate and workplace culture, not physical working arrangements.
carlosjobim 4y ago
>It is proving insanely hard getting in contact with folk. Can you call them on the phone?
- doublerabbit 4y ago
  Sure, when they're not in some meeting, or marked online and not actually there. To ask questions is a pain having to ring them constantly after ending the previous call. Sure. one could argue that this would happen in the office too but at least you can grab their attention easier.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    One thing that works well is to keep the call going while the issue is being handled. So for example you ask for a solution and they tell you what to do, then you two can bullshit about other stuff while you're implementing the solution live and get back to the questions when you need help, in the same call.