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I don't care what it does to the economy. The only people against remote work are middle managers fearing for their future and building owners afraid of losing

I don't care what it does to the economy. The only people against remote work are middle managers fearing for their future and building owners afraid of losing out on rent money. I have been working remotely for 5 years and I will retire and live in a cardboard box before I commute and work in an office again.

ab8 4y ago
Middle managers will be needed more, not less.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  This is absolutely true. Their job is harder too. It’s senior managers who take pleasure in people being around them having making back room discussions that can’t imagine a different way of working that are driving this. They are about to become structurally unemployable.
sshine 4y ago
> middle managers fearing for their future and building owners afraid of losing out on rent money You forget the business owners who fear they'll lose direction of the work. It's not so much whether you put in the hours at home, but whether your work is directed towards a common goal. Remote work requires a higher degree of communication, and some business owners don't possess the skill or interest to maintain out-of-office communication.
- tempestn 4y ago
  I'm glad you included that last line. I agree with you that managing a remote team or running a remote business has challenges that an in-person one doesn't. (I've been running AutoTempest with an all-remote team for almost 14 years now.) Managers who rely on the 'butts in seats' heuristic will struggle a lot with managing remote employees. However, the opportunities are also massive. For one thing, the owners/managers get to work from home too, which I certainly wouldn't give up! You can also hire from anywhere, which is huge in terms of finding talented people. Most importantly though, I think, all the things you need to do to manage a remote team effectively are things you really should be doing anyway. Yes, maybe some of the communication would be face to face instead of Slack or whatever, but for the most part if you're managing well, it's not going to be too hard to translate that to a remote environment. It's about actually knowing what people are working on, not just making sure they're putting in the hours. Knowing the goals of the team, and the individual goals of the team members. Fostering communication and collaboration (whatever the medium). And then continuously reviewing and refining the processes by which you do all those things.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    >You can also hire from anywhere, which is huge in terms of finding talented people. This is a negative for many businesses: their employees can get poached by competitors far away that offer better pay or benefits or working conditions.
    - tempestn 4y ago
      True, but it's still a net benefit for good companies. And it's not like it means you're competing with FAANG on every hire. There are far more developers out there (including very good ones) than those companies can employ. Especially now when most are looking to downsize instead!
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        >True, but it's still a net benefit for good companies. Yes, but what about the crappy companies? It's a big net negative for them, so they're going to oppose it. They don't want to compete with companies around the nation; they want to be the only employer in town so their employees feel locked in and unable to change jobs without selling their home and moving.
  - matwood 4y ago
    You're spot on. One big ones you missed is the cost savings of not needing an office. Years before covid, I pushed my company out of an office to full remote for many of the reasons you listed. It allowed us to keep a few great employees who wanted to live elsewhere, and save substantial money on office space (which matters a lot for a small company). At the time Slack had just become big and we embraced the async, transparent communication style fully. Early on one of the other owners asked me, 'if no one is in the office how do we know they are working?', and I responded 'how do we know they are working now?' That's when he 'got' it. We had never relied butts in seats, but it can still be a little scary going into an unknown. Remote/in-person both have unique challenges, they are just different. After years of remote, I think the advantages outweigh the challenges vs in-person.
britzkopf 4y ago
If you can retire as a rash reaction to being asked to be physically present for work, cardboard box threat notwithstanding, then you are way overpaid (assuming you are under 60).
- friedman23 4y ago
  Your statement is a non-sequitur.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jacobsenscott 4y ago
This just isn't true. I've been working from home close to a decade and it has been fantastic for me. There are clearly workers who do better, and prefer an office environment. We are social creatures after all. There are plenty of people who are miserable at home - they don't have the space for a proper office, they can't "turn off" at the end of the day, they are lonely, face to face interactions boost their creativity, etc.

ab8 4y ago

Middle managers will be needed more, not less.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
This is absolutely true. Their job is harder too. It’s senior managers who take pleasure in people being around them having making back room discussions that can’t imagine a different way of working that are driving this. They are about to become structurally unemployable.

sshine 4y ago

> middle managers fearing for their future and building owners afraid of losing out on rent money You forget the business owners who fear they'll lose direction of the work. It's not so much whether you put in the hours at home, but whether your work is directed towards a common goal. Remote work requires a higher degree of communication, and some business owners don't possess the skill or interest to maintain out-of-office communication.

tempestn 4y ago
I'm glad you included that last line. I agree with you that managing a remote team or running a remote business has challenges that an in-person one doesn't. (I've been running AutoTempest with an all-remote team for almost 14 years now.) Managers who rely on the 'butts in seats' heuristic will struggle a lot with managing remote employees. However, the opportunities are also massive. For one thing, the owners/managers get to work from home too, which I certainly wouldn't give up! You can also hire from anywhere, which is huge in terms of finding talented people. Most importantly though, I think, all the things you need to do to manage a remote team effectively are things you really should be doing anyway. Yes, maybe some of the communication would be face to face instead of Slack or whatever, but for the most part if you're managing well, it's not going to be too hard to translate that to a remote environment. It's about actually knowing what people are working on, not just making sure they're putting in the hours. Knowing the goals of the team, and the individual goals of the team members. Fostering communication and collaboration (whatever the medium). And then continuously reviewing and refining the processes by which you do all those things.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >You can also hire from anywhere, which is huge in terms of finding talented people. This is a negative for many businesses: their employees can get poached by competitors far away that offer better pay or benefits or working conditions.
  - tempestn 4y ago
    True, but it's still a net benefit for good companies. And it's not like it means you're competing with FAANG on every hire. There are far more developers out there (including very good ones) than those companies can employ. Especially now when most are looking to downsize instead!
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      >True, but it's still a net benefit for good companies. Yes, but what about the crappy companies? It's a big net negative for them, so they're going to oppose it. They don't want to compete with companies around the nation; they want to be the only employer in town so their employees feel locked in and unable to change jobs without selling their home and moving.
- matwood 4y ago
  You're spot on. One big ones you missed is the cost savings of not needing an office. Years before covid, I pushed my company out of an office to full remote for many of the reasons you listed. It allowed us to keep a few great employees who wanted to live elsewhere, and save substantial money on office space (which matters a lot for a small company). At the time Slack had just become big and we embraced the async, transparent communication style fully. Early on one of the other owners asked me, 'if no one is in the office how do we know they are working?', and I responded 'how do we know they are working now?' That's when he 'got' it. We had never relied butts in seats, but it can still be a little scary going into an unknown. Remote/in-person both have unique challenges, they are just different. After years of remote, I think the advantages outweigh the challenges vs in-person.

britzkopf 4y ago

If you can retire as a rash reaction to being asked to be physically present for work, cardboard box threat notwithstanding, then you are way overpaid (assuming you are under 60).

friedman23 4y ago
Your statement is a non-sequitur.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jacobsenscott 4y ago

This just isn't true. I've been working from home close to a decade and it has been fantastic for me. There are clearly workers who do better, and prefer an office environment. We are social creatures after all. There are plenty of people who are miserable at home - they don't have the space for a proper office, they can't "turn off" at the end of the day, they are lonely, face to face interactions boost their creativity, etc.