4 ms·

Sounds like a wonderful niche for a startup to innovate in and ensure up-to-date communication. Though I'm surprised such a service isn't already offered by Zen

Sounds like a wonderful niche for a startup to innovate in and ensure up-to-date communication. Though I'm surprised such a service isn't already offered by Zendesk et al.

weego 4y ago
You can't add more stuff into a situation where the major blocker is human apathy.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  Well 'human apathy' can be logged at the least so that finger pointing games don't happen.
  - kjs3 4y ago
    Let me guess...you've never worked at a large, bureaucratic organization.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      I have. What makes you think otherwise?
      - fragmede 4y ago
        Then you're extremely lucky to have worked in a huge org where logging of apathy managed to actually avoid finger pointing games.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        It seems like there may be some differences in how we understand the meaning of 'logging', 'apathy', and 'finger pointing games'. I am making some assumptions when discussing this topic, namely: 1. The CEO and executive leadership are actually competent, have at least average middle aged adult levels of patience, and don't have their daggers out for each other. 2. There exist more than one method of communication between each layer in the hierarchy. 3. The organization is engaged in normal business, not in the middle of an M&A deal, outside investigation, or bankruptcy proceedings.
        kjs3 4y ago
        Those are "assume a spherical cow" levels of bad assumptions. That's why we all assume you've never been there before.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        It's considered rude when someone attempts to speak for the entire reader-base on HN for a topic that obviously attracts a wide range of views. In reality, most large organizations do have at least a semi-competent leadership team most of the time. Unlike what is commonly supposed by junior level staff expressing their frustrations.
        kjs3 4y ago
        2 people constitutes "we", and there's at least one person other than me that has commented on you lack of awareness. So perhaps quit lecturing others on what is 'rude' when in reality you just don't like people telling you you aren't as insightful as your smug attitude conveys. A state which is regrettably common for junior level staff.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        I don't usually try to be nice with semi-trolling replies but since this doesn't seem like a troll account I will put in an effort. Everyone on HN can read the comment chain and see where you joined in, and who said what... so the claims are difficult to take seriously. Even if you focused on my alleged lack of qualifications to comment it would have not been as self-discrediting. Though I don't get riled up by oblique insults, that might not be the case for others, especially for a topic that might be linked to negative emotions in the reader-base. My sentence on 'junior level staff' wasn't directed towards you, it was a reflection on why it can be difficult to see the grand scheme of things when the environment might restrict that.
kneebonian 4y ago
There are actually several startups that are tackling the problem of organizational change management and communication. You may have heard of some of them, ServiceNow is one, SAP is another, some small companies like that. It turns out there is not a technological solution to a management problem.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  Are you sure there isn't even a partial solution? I can imagine the brute-force approach: Log every intra-company communication, and if some communication was meant to go to department X, Y, Z, and it only went to X, Y, then a flag would be immediately raised to department Z's attention and whoever sent it. Of course the personnel in department Z might review it but ignore it anyways, but at least now there's a paper trail of who's at fault. An Exchange system already gets you 80% of the way there if you force all on-the-record communications via email.
  - kneebonian 4y ago
    > Of course the personnel in department Z might review it but ignore it That's the problem right there. One of my clients had a large IT organization of over 1000+ employees, with strict change control rules, and procedures that were tracked in SN. Every time there was a change management meeting everyone who could possibly be effected would get an email from Service Now notifying them of the upcoming changes. Pretty much engineer ignored those emails, because there was so much going on in the org you'd get dozens of emails in a week and most of them you'd only be tangentially effected by, meanwhile you had your work to do. So the problem isn't getting the notifications out it's getting people to pay attention to them.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      I don't see how that's a problem for the organization. Individual preferences do vary, one ignores 90%, another 95%, another 100%. And the one who's ignoring 100% of them will likely eventually make a mistake that otherwise wouldn't have happened. But it will be fairly straightforward to resolve, after all there's an extensive paper trail as the chain of custody seems clear. Assuming the "change management meeting" emails were the approved means of communication.

Sounds like a wonderful niche for a startup to innovate in and ensure up-to-date communication. Though I'm surprised such a service isn't already offered by Zendesk et al.

weego 4y ago

You can't add more stuff into a situation where the major blocker is human apathy.

MichaelZuo 4y ago
Well 'human apathy' can be logged at the least so that finger pointing games don't happen.
- kjs3 4y ago
  Let me guess...you've never worked at a large, bureaucratic organization.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    I have. What makes you think otherwise?
    - fragmede 4y ago
      Then you're extremely lucky to have worked in a huge org where logging of apathy managed to actually avoid finger pointing games.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        It seems like there may be some differences in how we understand the meaning of 'logging', 'apathy', and 'finger pointing games'. I am making some assumptions when discussing this topic, namely: 1. The CEO and executive leadership are actually competent, have at least average middle aged adult levels of patience, and don't have their daggers out for each other. 2. There exist more than one method of communication between each layer in the hierarchy. 3. The organization is engaged in normal business, not in the middle of an M&A deal, outside investigation, or bankruptcy proceedings.
        kjs3 4y ago
        Those are "assume a spherical cow" levels of bad assumptions. That's why we all assume you've never been there before.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        It's considered rude when someone attempts to speak for the entire reader-base on HN for a topic that obviously attracts a wide range of views. In reality, most large organizations do have at least a semi-competent leadership team most of the time. Unlike what is commonly supposed by junior level staff expressing their frustrations.
        kjs3 4y ago
        2 people constitutes "we", and there's at least one person other than me that has commented on you lack of awareness. So perhaps quit lecturing others on what is 'rude' when in reality you just don't like people telling you you aren't as insightful as your smug attitude conveys. A state which is regrettably common for junior level staff.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        I don't usually try to be nice with semi-trolling replies but since this doesn't seem like a troll account I will put in an effort. Everyone on HN can read the comment chain and see where you joined in, and who said what... so the claims are difficult to take seriously. Even if you focused on my alleged lack of qualifications to comment it would have not been as self-discrediting. Though I don't get riled up by oblique insults, that might not be the case for others, especially for a topic that might be linked to negative emotions in the reader-base. My sentence on 'junior level staff' wasn't directed towards you, it was a reflection on why it can be difficult to see the grand scheme of things when the environment might restrict that.

kneebonian 4y ago

There are actually several startups that are tackling the problem of organizational change management and communication. You may have heard of some of them, ServiceNow is one, SAP is another, some small companies like that. It turns out there is not a technological solution to a management problem.

MichaelZuo 4y ago
Are you sure there isn't even a partial solution? I can imagine the brute-force approach: Log every intra-company communication, and if some communication was meant to go to department X, Y, Z, and it only went to X, Y, then a flag would be immediately raised to department Z's attention and whoever sent it. Of course the personnel in department Z might review it but ignore it anyways, but at least now there's a paper trail of who's at fault. An Exchange system already gets you 80% of the way there if you force all on-the-record communications via email.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  > Of course the personnel in department Z might review it but ignore it That's the problem right there. One of my clients had a large IT organization of over 1000+ employees, with strict change control rules, and procedures that were tracked in SN. Every time there was a change management meeting everyone who could possibly be effected would get an email from Service Now notifying them of the upcoming changes. Pretty much engineer ignored those emails, because there was so much going on in the org you'd get dozens of emails in a week and most of them you'd only be tangentially effected by, meanwhile you had your work to do. So the problem isn't getting the notifications out it's getting people to pay attention to them.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    I don't see how that's a problem for the organization. Individual preferences do vary, one ignores 90%, another 95%, another 100%. And the one who's ignoring 100% of them will likely eventually make a mistake that otherwise wouldn't have happened. But it will be fairly straightforward to resolve, after all there's an extensive paper trail as the chain of custody seems clear. Assuming the "change management meeting" emails were the approved means of communication.