9 ms·

To me, from the getting started, it looks like yet another JavaScript framework. Might be good, unfortunately I got framework fatigue. My personal website has

To me, from the getting started, it looks like yet another JavaScript framework. Might be good, unfortunately I got framework fatigue. My personal website has about 30 lines of javascript, no framework and no library.

bdcravens 4y ago
The biggest difference is that it uses tags/components as a means to mix markup and code. (the "old" server-side language ColdFusion does this same thing)
- creshal 4y ago
  Remember when PHP was supposed to be that?
  - noduerme 4y ago
    I still slip <?php> tags straight into inline html a la 2004 from time to time, when it suits the purpose. I even occasionally use href="javascript:" if it saves time. No shame in using what works.
    - mjburgess 4y ago
      It's not clear to me why a subset of PHP with an extremely fast compiler isn't available/common. That's what it's designed for... People plug-in all sorts into python, why not `from microphp import tpl`, `tpl("blah.phtml")` etc. <html..> <? foreach($xs as $y): ?> <? $y; ?> <? endforeach; ?> </html>
      - creshal 4y ago
        PHP is pretty fast already if you use it that way, and don't bury it under 20,000 layers of recursive framework callbacks like wordpress etc. does. But dedicated template languages have superior ergonomics these days, so why bother adapting PHP to it?
        noduerme 4y ago
        templates are always limitations, my friend. albatrosses. You're so right about the awful structure of the big CMSs... I've just used my own RYO CMS for 15+ years for website work... it's gone through lots of updates, but it's super simple. I'd never make it public as a framework because any decent dev should be able to roll their own anyway, and I don't need the aggravation. But it's basically a VERY simplified cross between {{handlebars}} and React, without attempting to bind the whole DOM to data, plus a DSL for specifying all the pages and modules of each website in SQL, and setting up english-language router rules. I'd ditch ergonomics any day for understanding what's going on and being able to pare it down as much as possible. Simple website clients pay so little these days it's basically charity work... you need something you can both do in an hour AND never have to worry about WordPress updating.
      - czx4f4bd 4y ago
        At least in Python, that's kinda what https://www.makotemplates.org https://www.makotemplates.org is. Although if you're just using a subset of PHP suitable for templating, it's not really clear to me what benefit there is to PHP syntax versus, say, Jinja2 syntax.
        noduerme 4y ago
        the whole thing with PHP, originally, was you just wrote HTML pages and slipped in PHP <? echo $hello; ?> code here and there where you wanted the server to fill something in with server-side processing as the page was served. This is how it was used before it became common to generate whole templates or pages out of code. You'd be serving a basically static webpage and have a counter at the bottom showing hits, for example, so you'd take your .html and rename it to .php and the counter would be tagged to be generated by the server but everything else would just be plain HTML. PHP still supports this and the fact that it evolved into a full fledged language where you generate HTML from it (as opposed to embedding its output in static pages) still seems slightly humorous to me.
      - rchaud 4y ago
        This is close to Twig syntax, and Twig is pretty much the defacto standard for writing templated PHP.
      - yamtaddle 4y ago
        PHP with a correctly-configured server is about as fast as web-oriented scripting languages get, in practice. Yes, including Node. To be sure to beat it you'll need to switch to something compiled, and then take great care not to make any mis-steps.
        conductr 4y ago
        The ease of deployment alone keeps me going back to PHP, but the speed is nice too
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      If I'm in a hurry I still just use the fucking <center> tag. It works and I can't be bothered to google what's correct this week, if I'm just dipping into HTML for a minute or two.
- noduerme 4y ago
  ColdFusion is an interesting referent ... even as an Adobe subscriber I was surprised to just find out it still exists.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Not as popular as it used to be, but definitely still around. The open source version (Lucee, formerly Railo) sees a lot of use as well. As for Adobe, I think it's treated as a step-child they acquired along with the rest of the Macromedia IP. I've actually been to trade shows where one part of the company was there and they didn't even know what ColdFusion is.
    - noduerme 4y ago
      I would so love if Adobe would just spin off Macromedia again. I remember working on Flex frontends with CF engineers in the early 2000s and ...I mean, there is no reason that couldn't be updated to be a killer framework now if it worked with modern stacks. Not surprising, but sad that Adobe flacks don't even know what it is. The world would be a lot more interesting if Macromedia was still a going concern, maybe aligned with Unity or some other ecosystem for game production.
      - throwntoday 4y ago
        >maybe aligned with Unity or some other ecosystem for game production I think I recall Flash did try to offer some type of iPhone app development features towards the end of it's useful life but Jobs effectively sentenced Flash to death so most everyone had jumped ship by this point.
        noduerme 4y ago
        We built some games in Flash/Air that compiled to native iOS apps... they basically bundle the whole flash player into the game. It was and still is a working way to make an iOS game, it's just that Adobe no longer supports the plugin version... and you can't really trust them to support anything else going forward, so most devs moved to other languages and stacks like Unity.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
strogonoff 4y ago
Contrarian take: the whole field of front-end frameworks seems to be lacking an all around good isomorphic solution to me. Is there anything that would out of the box: 1) do fully static server-side rendering that outputs zero JS by default, 2) still be capable of rendering client-side interactive components where appropriate (for user agents with JS), 3) have both of the above as equal first-class citizens without contrived workarounds needed to achieve either interactivity or SSR, 4) handle all required bundling/fetching at build stage and load fast at runtime, 5) be isomorphic and leverage TypeScript typings to validate the correctness of the whole thing at build time as much as possible, and ideally 6) allow easy reuse of preexisting React components?
- no_wizard 4y ago
  Take a look at Qwik https://qwik.builder.io/ https://qwik.builder.io/
- tzekid 4y ago
  I'm using Astro + Svelte for a small project right now, and it sounds like that's the combo that you're looking for.
- mdavidn 4y ago
  Another comment already mentioned Svelte. Alternatively, Hotwire Turbo or htmx might be more along the lines of what you want. Choose your own server-side language. I sprinkle in fancier frameworks when individual components need it, but this is more the exception than the rule. https://turbo.hotwired.dev/ https://turbo.hotwired.dev/ https://htmx.org/ https://htmx.org/
- seandoe 4y ago
  Remix.run
- chrisweekly 4y ago
  Remix (https://remix.run https://remix.run) comes awfully close
  - 4y ago
pier25 4y ago
> My personal website has about 30 lines of javascript, no framework and no library. "my use case doesn't need a JS framework so we don't need JS frameworks"
- classified 4y ago
  That's not what they said.
  - rudiksz 4y ago
    That's pretty much what they said. Most programmers don't work on "personal websites" at their workplace, as strange as that might sound.

bdcravens 4y ago

The biggest difference is that it uses tags/components as a means to mix markup and code. (the "old" server-side language ColdFusion does this same thing)

creshal 4y ago
Remember when PHP was supposed to be that?
- noduerme 4y ago
  I still slip <?php> tags straight into inline html a la 2004 from time to time, when it suits the purpose. I even occasionally use href="javascript:" if it saves time. No shame in using what works.
  - mjburgess 4y ago
    It's not clear to me why a subset of PHP with an extremely fast compiler isn't available/common. That's what it's designed for... People plug-in all sorts into python, why not `from microphp import tpl`, `tpl("blah.phtml")` etc. <html..> <? foreach($xs as $y): ?> <? $y; ?> <? endforeach; ?> </html>
    - creshal 4y ago
      PHP is pretty fast already if you use it that way, and don't bury it under 20,000 layers of recursive framework callbacks like wordpress etc. does. But dedicated template languages have superior ergonomics these days, so why bother adapting PHP to it?
      - noduerme 4y ago
        templates are always limitations, my friend. albatrosses. You're so right about the awful structure of the big CMSs... I've just used my own RYO CMS for 15+ years for website work... it's gone through lots of updates, but it's super simple. I'd never make it public as a framework because any decent dev should be able to roll their own anyway, and I don't need the aggravation. But it's basically a VERY simplified cross between {{handlebars}} and React, without attempting to bind the whole DOM to data, plus a DSL for specifying all the pages and modules of each website in SQL, and setting up english-language router rules. I'd ditch ergonomics any day for understanding what's going on and being able to pare it down as much as possible. Simple website clients pay so little these days it's basically charity work... you need something you can both do in an hour AND never have to worry about WordPress updating.
    - czx4f4bd 4y ago
      At least in Python, that's kinda what https://www.makotemplates.org https://www.makotemplates.org is. Although if you're just using a subset of PHP suitable for templating, it's not really clear to me what benefit there is to PHP syntax versus, say, Jinja2 syntax.
      - noduerme 4y ago
        the whole thing with PHP, originally, was you just wrote HTML pages and slipped in PHP <? echo $hello; ?> code here and there where you wanted the server to fill something in with server-side processing as the page was served. This is how it was used before it became common to generate whole templates or pages out of code. You'd be serving a basically static webpage and have a counter at the bottom showing hits, for example, so you'd take your .html and rename it to .php and the counter would be tagged to be generated by the server but everything else would just be plain HTML. PHP still supports this and the fact that it evolved into a full fledged language where you generate HTML from it (as opposed to embedding its output in static pages) still seems slightly humorous to me.
    - rchaud 4y ago
      This is close to Twig syntax, and Twig is pretty much the defacto standard for writing templated PHP.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      PHP with a correctly-configured server is about as fast as web-oriented scripting languages get, in practice. Yes, including Node. To be sure to beat it you'll need to switch to something compiled, and then take great care not to make any mis-steps.
      - conductr 4y ago
        The ease of deployment alone keeps me going back to PHP, but the speed is nice too
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    If I'm in a hurry I still just use the fucking <center> tag. It works and I can't be bothered to google what's correct this week, if I'm just dipping into HTML for a minute or two.
noduerme 4y ago
ColdFusion is an interesting referent ... even as an Adobe subscriber I was surprised to just find out it still exists.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Not as popular as it used to be, but definitely still around. The open source version (Lucee, formerly Railo) sees a lot of use as well. As for Adobe, I think it's treated as a step-child they acquired along with the rest of the Macromedia IP. I've actually been to trade shows where one part of the company was there and they didn't even know what ColdFusion is.
  - noduerme 4y ago
    I would so love if Adobe would just spin off Macromedia again. I remember working on Flex frontends with CF engineers in the early 2000s and ...I mean, there is no reason that couldn't be updated to be a killer framework now if it worked with modern stacks. Not surprising, but sad that Adobe flacks don't even know what it is. The world would be a lot more interesting if Macromedia was still a going concern, maybe aligned with Unity or some other ecosystem for game production.
    - throwntoday 4y ago
      >maybe aligned with Unity or some other ecosystem for game production I think I recall Flash did try to offer some type of iPhone app development features towards the end of it's useful life but Jobs effectively sentenced Flash to death so most everyone had jumped ship by this point.
      - noduerme 4y ago
        We built some games in Flash/Air that compiled to native iOS apps... they basically bundle the whole flash player into the game. It was and still is a working way to make an iOS game, it's just that Adobe no longer supports the plugin version... and you can't really trust them to support anything else going forward, so most devs moved to other languages and stacks like Unity.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

strogonoff 4y ago

Contrarian take: the whole field of front-end frameworks seems to be lacking an all around good isomorphic solution to me. Is there anything that would out of the box: 1) do fully static server-side rendering that outputs zero JS by default, 2) still be capable of rendering client-side interactive components where appropriate (for user agents with JS), 3) have both of the above as equal first-class citizens without contrived workarounds needed to achieve either interactivity or SSR, 4) handle all required bundling/fetching at build stage and load fast at runtime, 5) be isomorphic and leverage TypeScript typings to validate the correctness of the whole thing at build time as much as possible, and ideally 6) allow easy reuse of preexisting React components?

no_wizard 4y ago
Take a look at Qwik https://qwik.builder.io/ https://qwik.builder.io/
tzekid 4y ago
I'm using Astro + Svelte for a small project right now, and it sounds like that's the combo that you're looking for.
mdavidn 4y ago
Another comment already mentioned Svelte. Alternatively, Hotwire Turbo or htmx might be more along the lines of what you want. Choose your own server-side language. I sprinkle in fancier frameworks when individual components need it, but this is more the exception than the rule. https://turbo.hotwired.dev/ https://turbo.hotwired.dev/ https://htmx.org/ https://htmx.org/
seandoe 4y ago
Remix.run
chrisweekly 4y ago
Remix (https://remix.run https://remix.run) comes awfully close
- 4y ago

pier25 4y ago

> My personal website has about 30 lines of javascript, no framework and no library. "my use case doesn't need a JS framework so we don't need JS frameworks"

classified 4y ago
That's not what they said.
- rudiksz 4y ago
  That's pretty much what they said. Most programmers don't work on "personal websites" at their workplace, as strange as that might sound.