11 ms·

We've Lost the Plot

47 points by rblion 4y ago

rblion 4y ago
Our constant need for entertainment has blurred the line between fiction and reality—on television, in American politics, and in our everyday lives.
- bedobi 4y ago
  > Watching that video, I did what I often do when taking in the news these days: I stared in disbelief, briefly wondered about the difference between the dystopian and the merely weird, and went about my business. But I kept thinking about those clips like yes sometimes The Atlantic comes off as pretentious but that paragraph really speaks to me :O
- sixothree 4y ago
  I worry about this when it combines with the inevitable dissolution of trust in truth due to ai generated stuff.
ynab4 4y ago
The tech industry hasn't produced one net positive benefit for humanity in the past 20 years.
- klyrs 4y ago
  I was gonna say "what about arxiv or Wikipedia" but I'm unsure that nonprofits should count as "industry"
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  The iPhone, messaging apps, online tax preparation (I do my taxes on my _phone_), Spotify, Dropbox, drones, 3d printing, etc provide no value?
  - arp242 4y ago
    "No value" is of course not the same as "net positive benefit". Takes drones for example. I've been woken by them at 7am on campsites. I've been quietly reading a book at the beach only to be disrupted by some instagram addict with a drone. Peaceful walks in the mountains have been disrupted. As far as I'm concerned, they're a net-negative. They're excessively loud, annoying, and as far as I'm concerned they're net-negative. You're other examples are more complex, but my point is mainly: "provides value" is not identical to "net positive benefit".
  - ynab4 4y ago
    "The iPhone" Well meme'd, good sir
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Online tax prep isn't a net positive at all. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't need to exist. In normal countries, the government already knows your income and other such info, and fills out your taxes for you; you just have to verify and sign, unless there's a problem. Messaging apps are a bit similar: SMS is so horrible that proprietary apps were made as a better alternative, but it's all Balkanized and incompatible. Still, they fill a need, since communication is important and something people should do (tax prep is not: most people shouldn't be doing it at all).
  - everdrive 4y ago
    I agree that the parent is being overly pessimistic, but on balance I’m not sure that your list represents a net positive. The iPhone especially has been negative, as it nearly single-handedly ushered in the era of ubiquitous smartphones, vendor lock-in, and app stores.
  - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 4y ago
    The smartphone is the worst invention in the history of the world. Worse than nuclear weapons, worse than corona virus, worse than leaded gasoline. It is an enslavement device, a tracking device, a spying device. [EDIT] Messaging "apps" used to be neutral but now are trending negative due to being controlled by spy companies. Taxation is theft so making it easier doesn't sound like a good thing. Spotify is a service designed to remove your property rights under guise of giving you access to a large catalogue. Dropbox is a government surveillance service. Upload your files so the government can scan them. Drones are govt surveillance devices. 3d printing is neutral.
- richardatlarge 4y ago
  Another way to phrase this point: if I had to choose between all of it, so far, or none of it — I’d choose the latter. And as I type here now, I say I would. Pull the plug
- rkho 4y ago
  How do you quantify each of: - The tech industry - Net positive benefit - Humanity ?
- gsatic 4y ago
  Agree. Calling what they do as tech is the biggest joke. Whenever I read Big Tech my brain changes it to Big Shit.
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    I’d say it is Big Ad for the most part. “Tech” was needed to achieve the requisite scale but the business is ads for the most part.
- chrisbolt 4y ago
  - Sent from my iPhone
- euroderf 4y ago
  I could agree with this if one carves out an exception for accessibility tech. It's wonderful when someone disabled can communicate more easily.
superkuh 4y ago
There's a lot of cool scifi mentioned at the start of this but it's missing Karl Schroeder's "Lady of Mazes" (2005) which takes on this concept directly. In it the perceptual layers people computationally put in front of their senses have lead to complete severing of filter bubbles from each other into discrete political entities that perceive and live in entirely different "worlds". I don't want to spoil it with more since it's well worth a read.
mitchbob 4y ago
https://archive.ph/LVgBe https://archive.ph/LVgBe
jsz0 4y ago
I've been feeling this for a while. There's a performative sort of aspect to people's personalities now as though they are mimicking a character playing out scenes. There's always been jokers or people who quote lines from movies but what I'm seeing is way more pathological than that. I don't know if they are doing it on purpose or oblivious to it. If it were children doing this I wouldn't be too concerned but it's 30 year adults mimicking stuff like anime / video game style expressions and movements. I worry that something has gone collectively very wrong in all of our brains from over stimulation.
- arp242 4y ago
  I'm not sure if "classic" entertainment (films, games, etc.) is really the issue here. These kind of things have been around for ages, ranging from Star Trek conventions to "Dalekmania". For many decades feminists have been telling us that entertainment and media have been setting unrealistic beauty standards for women (young women/girls in particular) and that this is unhealthy. By and large, I think the basic premise of this is generally accepted (albeit with disagreement on some specifics). Social media seems to have done the same, setting unrealistic standards on how your life should be, how you should behave and react, what your personality should be. Social media is not reality, just as pornography isn't reality. That doesn't mean that either pornography or social media is bad in and of itself – HN is a social media of sorts – but I do think people's relationship with it can be unhealthy, or that some implementations of it can be.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    > Social media is not reality, just as pornography isn't reality I think my personal bugbear was "reality TV", in that it deliberately lies about which side of the "fiction"/"nonfiction" barrier it's on and thereby erodes it. But we're a long way past that now into the user-created video hole. > unrealistic beauty standards for women AI is going to be setting even more unrealistic beauty standards for women. Only 5 fingers? Boring. Another thing that should be emphasised is how bad news-as-entertainment is. I remember when Alex Jones was sued for libel his defence was effectively that no sensible person should believe what he said and his show was "for entertainment purposes only" - which stands in contrast to the impact it actually had.
thethought 4y ago
Wasted minutes reading this shit. tldr; an addicts trip report.
- williamcotton 4y ago
  You get a downvote and an explanation! In order for a negative review to contribute to a conversation you should really make it more than a poorly written 10 word sentence. If you don’t, well, there is nothing at all convincing about why the article is bad. Not everyone will share your opinion that it is bad so if you don’t make a supporting argument then what’s the point of saying anything at all? Also, I really wish people would leave an explanation about why they are downvoting more often.
  - williamcotton 4y ago
    LOL My only hope is that you at least were smiling about the irony when you clicked the little down arrow... because it is actually really funny! :D
techno_tsar 4y ago
Reminds me of Debord’s idea of the spectacle and Baudrillard’s simulation. The vicious cycle of art imitating life and life imitating art is ever accelerating with technology that gets better at beaming content into our brains to the point that we might not even have meaningful content with reality behind mass media.
- ladyattis 4y ago
  Honestly, I think this is true. I've noticed ever since I've stopped watching TV since 2007 and avoided most TV dramas (I've been mostly watching youtube videos on various topics like radio electronics, cooking, and the like since with maybe the occasion let's play of Dwarf Fortress or a group of people playing a tabletop campaign) that I've kind of fell out of the loop of the mainstream culture. So many things from pop music to references to TV shows have kind of left me just puzzled. Mind you, I'm in my 40s so I'm kind of "boomer" at this point.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  I think about Simulation & Simulacra a lot. Esp. when religious relatives talk about Jesus, and how GOP-Jesus is built on a lot of other interpretations -- themselves dubioubly built on other interpretations -- and wonder how much is actually even vaguely related to what the man might have said or done. But conceptually I see capitalism embracing it, as each simulation is a way to sell something new, e.g. "social media bubbles", which in turn allow for clickbating, selling of specific merch to specific demos, complete detachment and assimilation into basically different realities, etc. They have every reason to, cuz everything is based on adds and clicks and building consensus via social media likes; those things now drive sales, and that drives stock prices. Alex Jones comes to mind, with his brand of hyperreality and absurd statements -- lots of clicks, aka lots of money -- as well as his ability to target and shill his MAN-PILLS, FOR REAL MEN. Little wonder why there is a lot of overlap with Q-Anon there...
RGamma 4y ago
Increasingly we've seen that technology controls and uses us, not the way we imagined it would go, and that especially the ad/media industries have grown way beyond what can be considered healthy. It is infinitely grating to be forced to stand at the side lines and watch all of this happen. After a ~decade of getting angry or desparate I have nothing left but apathy for this shit show.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
joenot443 4y ago
I’d recommend skipping the read. A woman describing her tv habits and making non-sequitur Trump digs isn’t interesting writing in 2023, I don’t think there’s much of value being said here and I’m surprised the OP felt it was worth submitting. > here my tv-loving self interrupts, indignantly and a little defensively: It’s just TV. It’s all in good fun. And that’s true. I enjoyed Gaslit. This is how I remember my older sister writing when we were in high school. Maybe I’m getting old, I just find the tone so infantilizing and tacky.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

47 points by rblion 4y ago

Our constant need for entertainment has blurred the line between fiction and reality—on television, in American politics, and in our everyday lives.

bedobi 4y ago
> Watching that video, I did what I often do when taking in the news these days: I stared in disbelief, briefly wondered about the difference between the dystopian and the merely weird, and went about my business. But I kept thinking about those clips like yes sometimes The Atlantic comes off as pretentious but that paragraph really speaks to me :O
sixothree 4y ago
I worry about this when it combines with the inevitable dissolution of trust in truth due to ai generated stuff.

ynab4 4y ago

The tech industry hasn't produced one net positive benefit for humanity in the past 20 years.

klyrs 4y ago
I was gonna say "what about arxiv or Wikipedia" but I'm unsure that nonprofits should count as "industry"
throwaway5959 4y ago
The iPhone, messaging apps, online tax preparation (I do my taxes on my _phone_), Spotify, Dropbox, drones, 3d printing, etc provide no value?
- arp242 4y ago
  "No value" is of course not the same as "net positive benefit". Takes drones for example. I've been woken by them at 7am on campsites. I've been quietly reading a book at the beach only to be disrupted by some instagram addict with a drone. Peaceful walks in the mountains have been disrupted. As far as I'm concerned, they're a net-negative. They're excessively loud, annoying, and as far as I'm concerned they're net-negative. You're other examples are more complex, but my point is mainly: "provides value" is not identical to "net positive benefit".
- ynab4 4y ago
  "The iPhone" Well meme'd, good sir
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Online tax prep isn't a net positive at all. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't need to exist. In normal countries, the government already knows your income and other such info, and fills out your taxes for you; you just have to verify and sign, unless there's a problem. Messaging apps are a bit similar: SMS is so horrible that proprietary apps were made as a better alternative, but it's all Balkanized and incompatible. Still, they fill a need, since communication is important and something people should do (tax prep is not: most people shouldn't be doing it at all).
- everdrive 4y ago
  I agree that the parent is being overly pessimistic, but on balance I’m not sure that your list represents a net positive. The iPhone especially has been negative, as it nearly single-handedly ushered in the era of ubiquitous smartphones, vendor lock-in, and app stores.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 4y ago
  The smartphone is the worst invention in the history of the world. Worse than nuclear weapons, worse than corona virus, worse than leaded gasoline. It is an enslavement device, a tracking device, a spying device. [EDIT] Messaging "apps" used to be neutral but now are trending negative due to being controlled by spy companies. Taxation is theft so making it easier doesn't sound like a good thing. Spotify is a service designed to remove your property rights under guise of giving you access to a large catalogue. Dropbox is a government surveillance service. Upload your files so the government can scan them. Drones are govt surveillance devices. 3d printing is neutral.
richardatlarge 4y ago
Another way to phrase this point: if I had to choose between all of it, so far, or none of it — I’d choose the latter. And as I type here now, I say I would. Pull the plug
rkho 4y ago
How do you quantify each of: - The tech industry - Net positive benefit - Humanity ?
gsatic 4y ago
Agree. Calling what they do as tech is the biggest joke. Whenever I read Big Tech my brain changes it to Big Shit.
- osigurdson 4y ago
  I’d say it is Big Ad for the most part. “Tech” was needed to achieve the requisite scale but the business is ads for the most part.
chrisbolt 4y ago
- Sent from my iPhone
euroderf 4y ago
I could agree with this if one carves out an exception for accessibility tech. It's wonderful when someone disabled can communicate more easily.

superkuh 4y ago

There's a lot of cool scifi mentioned at the start of this but it's missing Karl Schroeder's "Lady of Mazes" (2005) which takes on this concept directly. In it the perceptual layers people computationally put in front of their senses have lead to complete severing of filter bubbles from each other into discrete political entities that perceive and live in entirely different "worlds". I don't want to spoil it with more since it's well worth a read.

mitchbob 4y ago

https://archive.ph/LVgBe https://archive.ph/LVgBe

jsz0 4y ago

I've been feeling this for a while. There's a performative sort of aspect to people's personalities now as though they are mimicking a character playing out scenes. There's always been jokers or people who quote lines from movies but what I'm seeing is way more pathological than that. I don't know if they are doing it on purpose or oblivious to it. If it were children doing this I wouldn't be too concerned but it's 30 year adults mimicking stuff like anime / video game style expressions and movements. I worry that something has gone collectively very wrong in all of our brains from over stimulation.

arp242 4y ago
I'm not sure if "classic" entertainment (films, games, etc.) is really the issue here. These kind of things have been around for ages, ranging from Star Trek conventions to "Dalekmania". For many decades feminists have been telling us that entertainment and media have been setting unrealistic beauty standards for women (young women/girls in particular) and that this is unhealthy. By and large, I think the basic premise of this is generally accepted (albeit with disagreement on some specifics). Social media seems to have done the same, setting unrealistic standards on how your life should be, how you should behave and react, what your personality should be. Social media is not reality, just as pornography isn't reality. That doesn't mean that either pornography or social media is bad in and of itself – HN is a social media of sorts – but I do think people's relationship with it can be unhealthy, or that some implementations of it can be.
- pjc50 4y ago
  > Social media is not reality, just as pornography isn't reality I think my personal bugbear was "reality TV", in that it deliberately lies about which side of the "fiction"/"nonfiction" barrier it's on and thereby erodes it. But we're a long way past that now into the user-created video hole. > unrealistic beauty standards for women AI is going to be setting even more unrealistic beauty standards for women. Only 5 fingers? Boring. Another thing that should be emphasised is how bad news-as-entertainment is. I remember when Alex Jones was sued for libel his defence was effectively that no sensible person should believe what he said and his show was "for entertainment purposes only" - which stands in contrast to the impact it actually had.

thethought 4y ago

Wasted minutes reading this shit. tldr; an addicts trip report.

williamcotton 4y ago
You get a downvote and an explanation! In order for a negative review to contribute to a conversation you should really make it more than a poorly written 10 word sentence. If you don’t, well, there is nothing at all convincing about why the article is bad. Not everyone will share your opinion that it is bad so if you don’t make a supporting argument then what’s the point of saying anything at all? Also, I really wish people would leave an explanation about why they are downvoting more often.
- williamcotton 4y ago
  LOL My only hope is that you at least were smiling about the irony when you clicked the little down arrow... because it is actually really funny! :D

techno_tsar 4y ago

Reminds me of Debord’s idea of the spectacle and Baudrillard’s simulation. The vicious cycle of art imitating life and life imitating art is ever accelerating with technology that gets better at beaming content into our brains to the point that we might not even have meaningful content with reality behind mass media.

ladyattis 4y ago
Honestly, I think this is true. I've noticed ever since I've stopped watching TV since 2007 and avoided most TV dramas (I've been mostly watching youtube videos on various topics like radio electronics, cooking, and the like since with maybe the occasion let's play of Dwarf Fortress or a group of people playing a tabletop campaign) that I've kind of fell out of the loop of the mainstream culture. So many things from pop music to references to TV shows have kind of left me just puzzled. Mind you, I'm in my 40s so I'm kind of "boomer" at this point.
red-iron-pine 4y ago
I think about Simulation & Simulacra a lot. Esp. when religious relatives talk about Jesus, and how GOP-Jesus is built on a lot of other interpretations -- themselves dubioubly built on other interpretations -- and wonder how much is actually even vaguely related to what the man might have said or done. But conceptually I see capitalism embracing it, as each simulation is a way to sell something new, e.g. "social media bubbles", which in turn allow for clickbating, selling of specific merch to specific demos, complete detachment and assimilation into basically different realities, etc. They have every reason to, cuz everything is based on adds and clicks and building consensus via social media likes; those things now drive sales, and that drives stock prices. Alex Jones comes to mind, with his brand of hyperreality and absurd statements -- lots of clicks, aka lots of money -- as well as his ability to target and shill his MAN-PILLS, FOR REAL MEN. Little wonder why there is a lot of overlap with Q-Anon there...

RGamma 4y ago

Increasingly we've seen that technology controls and uses us, not the way we imagined it would go, and that especially the ad/media industries have grown way beyond what can be considered healthy. It is infinitely grating to be forced to stand at the side lines and watch all of this happen. After a ~decade of getting angry or desparate I have nothing left but apathy for this shit show.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

joenot443 4y ago

I’d recommend skipping the read. A woman describing her tv habits and making non-sequitur Trump digs isn’t interesting writing in 2023, I don’t think there’s much of value being said here and I’m surprised the OP felt it was worth submitting. > here my tv-loving self interrupts, indignantly and a little defensively: It’s just TV. It’s all in good fun. And that’s true. I enjoyed Gaslit. This is how I remember my older sister writing when we were in high school. Maybe I’m getting old, I just find the tone so infantilizing and tacky.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]