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To be fair to LinkedIn they do list a specific and limited set of problems in their letter. They're not asking you to stop building BrowserFlow, but to stop adv

To be fair to LinkedIn they do list a specific and limited set of problems in their letter. They're not asking you to stop building BrowserFlow, but to stop advertising it as a LinkedIn scraping tool, and using their logo to do that. It sounds to me (not a lawyer) that removing all the LinkedIn examples from your website and stopping using their logo would be enough to satisfy their request...

samwillis 4y ago
IANAL, but I think this is right. My understanding of the LinkedIn v HiQ case is that it's legal to scrape public pages no matter what is in the website terms. Scraping "privet" pages can be illegal as you have had to explicitly agree to the terms. Your users would be breaking those terms, not you, as they do it on their own machine. As the parent said, just remove all reference to LinkedIn and you can move on.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- zulln 4y ago
  > Your users would be breaking those terms, not you, as they do it on their own machine. As the parent said, just remove all reference to LinkedIn and you can move on. There is some kind of cloud stuff here though.
- KieranMac 4y ago
  I am an attorney whose primary focus is in this area of law. And this interpretation of the LinkedIn v. hiQ case is categorically wrong. https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/as-everyone-expected-years-ago-hiqs-cfaa-wins-dont-mean-it-can-freely-scrape-hiq-v-linkedin-guest-blog-post-part-1-of-2.htm https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/as-everyone-ex... https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-web-scraping-laws-guest-blog-post-part-2-of-2.htm https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/hello-youve-be...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - MatthiasPortzel 4y ago
    To summarize, hiQ was not found criminally liable under CFAA. However, they were civilly liable for breaking LinkedIn’s terms of service. Furthermore, do not assume that a ruling pertaining to hiQ is relevant to you without doing further research. (This comment is targeted at people browsing HN for entertainment. I am not a lawyer and I don’t know what I’m talking about.)
    - KieranMac 4y ago
      A better summary: Summary judgment was granted on behalf of LinkedIn against hiQ Labs for breach of contract. Summary Judgment was denied against hiQ Labs on its CFAA claims. So the court ruled that hiQ breached LinkedIn's contract. The parties settled their dispute with hiQ Labs agreeing to court-imposed injunction to never again scrape LinkedIn and by paying LinkedIn $500k. Despite the headlines, the final resolution of these disputes was a win for LinkedIn, not hiQ. For the longer version, read the posts above.
      - cvalka 4y ago
        We definitely need scrapping neutrality. If you allow any third party(including Google) to scrape your public data, you cannot prohibit anyone else doing the same.
        sangnoir 4y ago
        Outside of protected classes, I see that argument flying as well as "house party neutrality" for individuals.
  - cocoa19 4y ago
    Do you take new clients? I'm interested in consultation in a related area. How can I contact you?
truetraveller 4y ago
It's up to the user to use to use it on public pages vs private pages. I believe the most OP should do is be explicit: "This tool is only meant to scrape public pages". Just like a knife can be used to kill, does not mean Walmart should cease selling knives.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  >Just like a knife can be used to kill, does not mean Walmart should cease selling knives. They could put warnings on them, though - much as they do with plastic bags. I'd sure feel safer.
eschneider 4y ago
The about certainly sounds right, but do yourself a favor and check with an IP lawyer. A quick consult won't be too expensive and will probably save you down the line.
pbhjpbhj 4y ago
It's not trade mark infringement to use a logo to refer to a business entity, fwiw. There was a recent piece of caselaw relating to scraping, in USA, IIRC. I seem to remember it was allowed for user accessible areas. I'm not sure LinkedIn have a legal basis for their complaint, but of course that won't stop them. This is not legal advice and does not relate to my employment.
- samstave 4y ago
  This reminds me of a time where I was in SF taking pics of "the pigeon whisperer" lady (A lady who would feed the pigeons, and thus had a ton of them around her): She was in an alley near Financial District, and I was taking pics of her and all the pigeons. Some thug came out of some building telling me I was not allowed to take any pictures. I told him to get lost. and he said "Policy is that you cannot take pictures" I said "I am standing on public property. If I can see it with my eyes from where I am standing in public, then I can take pics of it. Get lost." Same goes for scraping a site: If I can see it in open public from any browser anywhere on the globe: that is open data. I dont give a shit what lawyers or companies think in this regard. The term "walled garden" exists - if you want your shit hidden... then dont make it available to the open web.

samwillis 4y ago

IANAL, but I think this is right. My understanding of the LinkedIn v HiQ case is that it's legal to scrape public pages no matter what is in the website terms. Scraping "privet" pages can be illegal as you have had to explicitly agree to the terms. Your users would be breaking those terms, not you, as they do it on their own machine. As the parent said, just remove all reference to LinkedIn and you can move on.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zulln 4y ago
> Your users would be breaking those terms, not you, as they do it on their own machine. As the parent said, just remove all reference to LinkedIn and you can move on. There is some kind of cloud stuff here though.
KieranMac 4y ago
I am an attorney whose primary focus is in this area of law. And this interpretation of the LinkedIn v. hiQ case is categorically wrong. https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/as-everyone-expected-years-ago-hiqs-cfaa-wins-dont-mean-it-can-freely-scrape-hiq-v-linkedin-guest-blog-post-part-1-of-2.htm https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/as-everyone-ex... https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-web-scraping-laws-guest-blog-post-part-2-of-2.htm https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/hello-youve-be...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- MatthiasPortzel 4y ago
  To summarize, hiQ was not found criminally liable under CFAA. However, they were civilly liable for breaking LinkedIn’s terms of service. Furthermore, do not assume that a ruling pertaining to hiQ is relevant to you without doing further research. (This comment is targeted at people browsing HN for entertainment. I am not a lawyer and I don’t know what I’m talking about.)
  - KieranMac 4y ago
    A better summary: Summary judgment was granted on behalf of LinkedIn against hiQ Labs for breach of contract. Summary Judgment was denied against hiQ Labs on its CFAA claims. So the court ruled that hiQ breached LinkedIn's contract. The parties settled their dispute with hiQ Labs agreeing to court-imposed injunction to never again scrape LinkedIn and by paying LinkedIn $500k. Despite the headlines, the final resolution of these disputes was a win for LinkedIn, not hiQ. For the longer version, read the posts above.
    - cvalka 4y ago
      We definitely need scrapping neutrality. If you allow any third party(including Google) to scrape your public data, you cannot prohibit anyone else doing the same.
      - sangnoir 4y ago
        Outside of protected classes, I see that argument flying as well as "house party neutrality" for individuals.
- cocoa19 4y ago
  Do you take new clients? I'm interested in consultation in a related area. How can I contact you?

truetraveller 4y ago

It's up to the user to use to use it on public pages vs private pages. I believe the most OP should do is be explicit: "This tool is only meant to scrape public pages". Just like a knife can be used to kill, does not mean Walmart should cease selling knives.

InCityDreams 4y ago
>Just like a knife can be used to kill, does not mean Walmart should cease selling knives. They could put warnings on them, though - much as they do with plastic bags. I'd sure feel safer.

eschneider 4y ago

The about certainly sounds right, but do yourself a favor and check with an IP lawyer. A quick consult won't be too expensive and will probably save you down the line.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago

It's not trade mark infringement to use a logo to refer to a business entity, fwiw. There was a recent piece of caselaw relating to scraping, in USA, IIRC. I seem to remember it was allowed for user accessible areas. I'm not sure LinkedIn have a legal basis for their complaint, but of course that won't stop them. This is not legal advice and does not relate to my employment.

samstave 4y ago
This reminds me of a time where I was in SF taking pics of "the pigeon whisperer" lady (A lady who would feed the pigeons, and thus had a ton of them around her): She was in an alley near Financial District, and I was taking pics of her and all the pigeons. Some thug came out of some building telling me I was not allowed to take any pictures. I told him to get lost. and he said "Policy is that you cannot take pictures" I said "I am standing on public property. If I can see it with my eyes from where I am standing in public, then I can take pics of it. Get lost." Same goes for scraping a site: If I can see it in open public from any browser anywhere on the globe: that is open data. I dont give a shit what lawyers or companies think in this regard. The term "walled garden" exists - if you want your shit hidden... then dont make it available to the open web.