11 ms·

How does the no-fly list work in practice? Are they just told 'no, go away' when they try to board a plane, or are they arrested?

carrja99 4y ago
I have always imagine walking through airport security like a normal person, then out of the blue you are tackled, arrested and charged with “illegal attempt to board a plane” and sentenced to twenty years in a federal prison. An over-reaction to be sure… I expect no less from modern US laws enforcement.
- PM_me_your_math 4y ago
  That's quite the imagination. You get denied a boarding pass if you are on a no fly list, asked to leave the airport, and told to contact DHS. If you are on the terror watch list, or have active arrest warrants from a court, you will be arrested. If you attempt to evade and resist arrest, then yes, you will probably get tackled and tuned up. People usually confuse the terrorist watch list with the no-fly list. The former being a list of persons known to having some involvement in terror activities in groups designated as terrorist groups by the US State Department. The No-Fly list is generally full of criminals, unruly passengers, and people who have gotten violent on flights with crew or other passengers. It is also imperfect, with false positives occurring with people who have the same name as another listee. It should be noted that the US government may not use the No Fly List to prevent U.S. citizens or permanent residents from returning home to U.S. territory, since doing so is a violation of the 14th amendment.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    What's the basis for arresting someone for just being on a watch list? That sounds unconstitutional. I was added to a watch list long ago that results in me being tossed in a cell and "detained" for up to 24 hours every time I go through customs but they always make it exceedingly clear I'm not under arrest (granted while sitting in immigration holding cell it doesn't feel much different). It really gets annoying just being told by CBP "you know what's next" while never being able to find out what list you've been put on. I hope more of these lists become public.
    - from 4y ago
      I assume the #1 indicator is frequent travel to Syria Iraq Iran Lebanon. Have you ever gone to those places?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - photonbucket 4y ago
      What's your guess for why they're treating you like this?
  - ianhawes 4y ago
    Your comment is mostly wrong. The terrorist "watch-list" is a database of people that the US government considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism. Whether you believe that is another story. The no-fly list is a subset of the terrorism watch list. Criminals, unruly passengers, and violent offenders are specifically NOT on the no-fly list unless they're also on the terrorism watch list[0]. Unruly passengers are sometimes added to a no-fly list for a specific airline, but there is no national no-fly list that private companies are eligible to add to[1], and despite being charged federally with a crime in the air, you are not eligible to be added to the no-fly list for that reason. [0] https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/tsc https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/tsc [1] https://news.delta.com/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-why-we-need-national-no-fly-list https://news.delta.com/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-why-we-need-nati...
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      The no-fly list is reported to have 1.5 million names on it. (the public didn't know how many names were on it until it was leaked). If this is a subset of the "terrorist watch-list", then that terrorist watch list must have even more names on it? I think you're implying many more? 5 million? 10 million? People that the US government "considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism," really? There are, what, a couple dozen acts of terrorism a year? (I don't know whether we're talking about in the US or globally or what). But millions of people the US government "reasonably" considers at risk to commit them? This seems... odd, no?
      - simple-thoughts 4y ago
        Why would that be odd? It is perfectly consistent with the history of state actors generally and USG specifically.
        jrochkind1 4y ago
        So at the link that ianhawes helpfully provided, the US government describes the terrorist watch list as "[having] information on people reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism (or related activities)." I don't think we knew how many people were on it before. But if it's a strict superset of the no-fly list, then we now know it's at least 1.5 million people. I guess the only odd thing is that a lot of people seem to believe the USA government's line that more than 1.5 million people are "reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism or related activities", when there are maybe a few dozen terrorist attacks a year. ("reasonably"! "related activities" huh?).
westmeal 4y ago
I think you get detained and sent to the shadow realm. OK the shadow realm part I made up but I'm sure there aren't good things that can happen to you once the government detains you.
- jrockway 4y ago
  > good things that can happen to you once the government detains you I think they have to charge you with a crime within 24 hours. All of the corner cases that you read about in the media are things like "but what if they're fighting in Afghanistan and they magically end up in Cuba on a military base, do we still have to arraign them?" That's apparently a tougher question (even though the answer is obviously yes), but if you end up in central booking in some random US city, some judge will have to spend 10 seconds looking at your case and decide whether or not you can get bail. So you're not going to get disappeared to a shadow realm if you buy a plane ticket and you're on this list. You might still have an extremely shitty day, though. The criminal justice system is not fun.
notch898a 4y ago
It's a civil limitation AFAIK. Those on the no-fly can still buy a gun lol. Probably can charter your own flight as well or fly your own private plane.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  It depends on your name. These lists are literally a name match. If you're "John Smith", it's likely you're on multiple lists and will get separately hassled by multiple entities. A guy I grew up with had an FFL and would get flagged for followup when buying guns at retail because of his common name.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    FFL?
    - tyler_sf 4y ago
      Federal Firearms License
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > Probably can charter your own flight as well or fly your own private plane. If I’m that rich, I’m sure I could rub elbows and get my name removed.
rwmj 4y ago
For those not in the US you wouldn't get as far as the plane because your ESTA would be denied first. Then your visa would be stuck in "Administrative Processing" forever.
- notch898a 4y ago
  Don't need ESTA for guam / saipan. Wonder what happens if they board foreign carrier. Probably just get booted when they reach customs. Also as fucked up as it is US citizens end up on the TSC and no-fly as well. No ESTA needed for them.
yabones 4y ago
The airline probably lets you buy a ticket but "technical errors" prevent them from printing a boarding pass when you go to check in. Then a circus of head scratching ensues while the desk staff stall for time until your flight leaves without you. Then, weeks later when your refund case is handled they tell you in cryptic terms that they are unable to process your reimbursement transaction but not why.
alistairSH 4y ago
On the US side, you get "turned away" (or at least taken for additional questions) at security screening. It happened to Ted Kennedy years ago (apparently, some criminal/terrorist once used "T Kennedy" as an alias, so Sen Kennedy, along with ~7000 other Americans, would have been flagged). On the international side, I assume you get stopped somewhere between check-in and boarding (but not sure if it's up to local security or the airline agents). If not that, you'd be stopped at immigration once on US soil.
- samstave 4y ago
  If you are on a no-fly, one should be notified that at the time they attempt to purchase a ticket, and before payment is taken for said ticket. No exceptions.
  - ianhawes 4y ago
    You can obtain a Redress Control Number[0] from the DHS which acts as an identifier if your name matches that of someone on the no fly list. Most airline reservation systems support this as it has been around for ~10 years. [0] https://www.dhs.gov/redress-control-numbers https://www.dhs.gov/redress-control-numbers
    - alexose 4y ago
      Thanks, I always wondered what this was for. Guess I should have expected it was a kludge!
    - samstave 4y ago
      >>can obtain a Redress Control Number[0] from the DHS which acts as an identifier PRE-SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!!!!
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    This would allow enumeration of the no fly list, or at least still benefit criminals who can pre-check before taking a risk.
- 4y ago
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
Are they even able to book a ticket online or in person if they give their first + last name?

carrja99 4y ago

I have always imagine walking through airport security like a normal person, then out of the blue you are tackled, arrested and charged with “illegal attempt to board a plane” and sentenced to twenty years in a federal prison. An over-reaction to be sure… I expect no less from modern US laws enforcement.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago
That's quite the imagination. You get denied a boarding pass if you are on a no fly list, asked to leave the airport, and told to contact DHS. If you are on the terror watch list, or have active arrest warrants from a court, you will be arrested. If you attempt to evade and resist arrest, then yes, you will probably get tackled and tuned up. People usually confuse the terrorist watch list with the no-fly list. The former being a list of persons known to having some involvement in terror activities in groups designated as terrorist groups by the US State Department. The No-Fly list is generally full of criminals, unruly passengers, and people who have gotten violent on flights with crew or other passengers. It is also imperfect, with false positives occurring with people who have the same name as another listee. It should be noted that the US government may not use the No Fly List to prevent U.S. citizens or permanent residents from returning home to U.S. territory, since doing so is a violation of the 14th amendment.
- notch898a 4y ago
  What's the basis for arresting someone for just being on a watch list? That sounds unconstitutional. I was added to a watch list long ago that results in me being tossed in a cell and "detained" for up to 24 hours every time I go through customs but they always make it exceedingly clear I'm not under arrest (granted while sitting in immigration holding cell it doesn't feel much different). It really gets annoying just being told by CBP "you know what's next" while never being able to find out what list you've been put on. I hope more of these lists become public.
  - from 4y ago
    I assume the #1 indicator is frequent travel to Syria Iraq Iran Lebanon. Have you ever gone to those places?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - photonbucket 4y ago
    What's your guess for why they're treating you like this?
- ianhawes 4y ago
  Your comment is mostly wrong. The terrorist "watch-list" is a database of people that the US government considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism. Whether you believe that is another story. The no-fly list is a subset of the terrorism watch list. Criminals, unruly passengers, and violent offenders are specifically NOT on the no-fly list unless they're also on the terrorism watch list[0]. Unruly passengers are sometimes added to a no-fly list for a specific airline, but there is no national no-fly list that private companies are eligible to add to[1], and despite being charged federally with a crime in the air, you are not eligible to be added to the no-fly list for that reason. [0] https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/tsc https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/tsc [1] https://news.delta.com/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-why-we-need-national-no-fly-list https://news.delta.com/delta-ceo-ed-bastian-why-we-need-nati...
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    The no-fly list is reported to have 1.5 million names on it. (the public didn't know how many names were on it until it was leaked). If this is a subset of the "terrorist watch-list", then that terrorist watch list must have even more names on it? I think you're implying many more? 5 million? 10 million? People that the US government "considers at-risk of committing acts of terrorism," really? There are, what, a couple dozen acts of terrorism a year? (I don't know whether we're talking about in the US or globally or what). But millions of people the US government "reasonably" considers at risk to commit them? This seems... odd, no?
    - simple-thoughts 4y ago
      Why would that be odd? It is perfectly consistent with the history of state actors generally and USG specifically.
      - jrochkind1 4y ago
        So at the link that ianhawes helpfully provided, the US government describes the terrorist watch list as "[having] information on people reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism (or related activities)." I don't think we knew how many people were on it before. But if it's a strict superset of the no-fly list, then we now know it's at least 1.5 million people. I guess the only odd thing is that a lot of people seem to believe the USA government's line that more than 1.5 million people are "reasonably suspected to be involved in terrorism or related activities", when there are maybe a few dozen terrorist attacks a year. ("reasonably"! "related activities" huh?).

westmeal 4y ago

I think you get detained and sent to the shadow realm. OK the shadow realm part I made up but I'm sure there aren't good things that can happen to you once the government detains you.

jrockway 4y ago
> good things that can happen to you once the government detains you I think they have to charge you with a crime within 24 hours. All of the corner cases that you read about in the media are things like "but what if they're fighting in Afghanistan and they magically end up in Cuba on a military base, do we still have to arraign them?" That's apparently a tougher question (even though the answer is obviously yes), but if you end up in central booking in some random US city, some judge will have to spend 10 seconds looking at your case and decide whether or not you can get bail. So you're not going to get disappeared to a shadow realm if you buy a plane ticket and you're on this list. You might still have an extremely shitty day, though. The criminal justice system is not fun.

notch898a 4y ago

It's a civil limitation AFAIK. Those on the no-fly can still buy a gun lol. Probably can charter your own flight as well or fly your own private plane.

Spooky23 4y ago
It depends on your name. These lists are literally a name match. If you're "John Smith", it's likely you're on multiple lists and will get separately hassled by multiple entities. A guy I grew up with had an FFL and would get flagged for followup when buying guns at retail because of his common name.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  FFL?
  - tyler_sf 4y ago
    Federal Firearms License
the_only_law 4y ago
> Probably can charter your own flight as well or fly your own private plane. If I’m that rich, I’m sure I could rub elbows and get my name removed.

rwmj 4y ago

For those not in the US you wouldn't get as far as the plane because your ESTA would be denied first. Then your visa would be stuck in "Administrative Processing" forever.

notch898a 4y ago
Don't need ESTA for guam / saipan. Wonder what happens if they board foreign carrier. Probably just get booted when they reach customs. Also as fucked up as it is US citizens end up on the TSC and no-fly as well. No ESTA needed for them.

yabones 4y ago

The airline probably lets you buy a ticket but "technical errors" prevent them from printing a boarding pass when you go to check in. Then a circus of head scratching ensues while the desk staff stall for time until your flight leaves without you. Then, weeks later when your refund case is handled they tell you in cryptic terms that they are unable to process your reimbursement transaction but not why.

alistairSH 4y ago

On the US side, you get "turned away" (or at least taken for additional questions) at security screening. It happened to Ted Kennedy years ago (apparently, some criminal/terrorist once used "T Kennedy" as an alias, so Sen Kennedy, along with ~7000 other Americans, would have been flagged). On the international side, I assume you get stopped somewhere between check-in and boarding (but not sure if it's up to local security or the airline agents). If not that, you'd be stopped at immigration once on US soil.

samstave 4y ago
If you are on a no-fly, one should be notified that at the time they attempt to purchase a ticket, and before payment is taken for said ticket. No exceptions.
- ianhawes 4y ago
  You can obtain a Redress Control Number[0] from the DHS which acts as an identifier if your name matches that of someone on the no fly list. Most airline reservation systems support this as it has been around for ~10 years. [0] https://www.dhs.gov/redress-control-numbers https://www.dhs.gov/redress-control-numbers
  - alexose 4y ago
    Thanks, I always wondered what this was for. Guess I should have expected it was a kludge!
  - samstave 4y ago
    >>can obtain a Redress Control Number[0] from the DHS which acts as an identifier PRE-SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!!!!
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  This would allow enumeration of the no fly list, or at least still benefit criminals who can pre-check before taking a risk.
4y ago

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

Are they even able to book a ticket online or in person if they give their first + last name?