5 ms·

This seems like a pretty realistic assessment for large tokamaks. On the other hand, if Helion succeeds with their 2024 attempt at net electricity, they plan t

This seems like a pretty realistic assessment for large tokamaks. On the other hand, if Helion succeeds with their 2024 attempt at net electricity, they plan to build a factory churning out twenty 50MW reactors every day.

ben_w 4y ago
> twenty 50MW reactors every day. 1GW/day seems… surprising. Even if they are justified in the science, that's less than a decade to fully replace all existing electrical supply.
- smaddox 4y ago
  If they succeed to the degree they aim to (and there's reason to believe they will), electricity from their generators will be an order of magnitude cheaper than any existing source.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    That's not the bit which I am reacting to with surprise. This sort of grand vision feels even more ambitious than Musk wanting a thousand Starships in each Mars transfer window. I'm not going to say it can't be done — not my field, how would I know — only that it's surprising.
    - api 4y ago
      It’s more ambitious than Musk’s vision because it involves questions about whether the technology works. We know we could build thousands of spacecraft if someone wants to write that check.
- DennisP 4y ago
  It kinda seems feasible. The reactors aren't all that big, so in terms of hardware mass it's nothing startling. They're starting to manufacture their own capacitors, and don't need anyone to supply them with turbines or advanced lasers or superconductors. The reactors are shippable by rail. Regulators are already signaling a light hand, even in the US for D-T fusion. If Helion achieves their projected cost of one cent/kWh, then it will be cheaper to replace even a brand-new coal or gas plant than to keep paying for fuel. (The big leap of course is getting to a fully-working prototype.)
eppp 4y ago
They should start by making a helion factory factory first.
- ryandvm 4y ago
  I'm here for the Java jokes
  - eppp 4y ago
    I was thinking factorio but java also works
_0w8t 4y ago
Tokamac cost depends on its volume which is like forth power of its magnetic field strength. If some engineering breakthrough allows to go to 40 Tesla in a tokamac compared with 20 of the designs like SPARK, then a tokamak that can be transported by a truck and factory-built is feasible.
- badcppdev 4y ago
  Important to note that the Helion approach doesn't use a Tokamak although it absolutely does benefit from increasing the size of the system.
_0w8t 4y ago
I am very skeptical about Helion, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vUPhsFoniw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vUPhsFoniw
- badcppdev 4y ago
  That's a pretty pathetic summary of the Helion technology. The youtuber seems to have watched the Real Engineering video but not actually done any research on the other information that Helion has published in the last 12 months. A lot of the criticisms are due to Real Engineering video missing details. The youtuber is unprofessionally rude as well.
- DennisP 4y ago
  FRCs have been around a long time but Helion isn't just making an FRC, they're making two, slamming them into each other, and then compressing with a magnetic field. The neutrons from D-D fusion are much lower energy than D-T fusion, and don't cause the same damage to materials. They're similar to fission neutrons, and modern fission reactors last sixty years without refurbishment. According to Helion and other sources I've seen, their hybrid reaction would only release 6% of its energy as neutron radiation, compared to 80% from D-T. They could also build reactors dedicated to D-D and hence He3 production, designing their power plants to mostly burn D-He3. That would reduce power plant neutrons to less than 1% of power output. Regarding net power and scaling, I'm not competent to talk about it but here's the CEO of Helion going into some detail on their view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1vyMcqiVtA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1vyMcqiVtA
  - _0w8t 4y ago
    With Helion pulse design peak neuron flux luminosity will still be much higher than that was observed in nuclear reactors. Compared with tokamaks their magnets will be directly exposed to it. Plus their idea to convert fusion energy directly into electricity depends on many unknowns to assert that it will work with reasonable efficiency. So even if their approach may work to produce positive energy output in few years, a practical device will still be far away. Edit: Helion itself admits that net positive in electricity with D-3He is tricky even with their design at that presentation. So most likely their first prototype will be D+D with all the problems associated with high-energy neutrons.

ben_w 4y ago

> twenty 50MW reactors every day. 1GW/day seems… surprising. Even if they are justified in the science, that's less than a decade to fully replace all existing electrical supply.

smaddox 4y ago
If they succeed to the degree they aim to (and there's reason to believe they will), electricity from their generators will be an order of magnitude cheaper than any existing source.
- ben_w 4y ago
  That's not the bit which I am reacting to with surprise. This sort of grand vision feels even more ambitious than Musk wanting a thousand Starships in each Mars transfer window. I'm not going to say it can't be done — not my field, how would I know — only that it's surprising.
  - api 4y ago
    It’s more ambitious than Musk’s vision because it involves questions about whether the technology works. We know we could build thousands of spacecraft if someone wants to write that check.
DennisP 4y ago
It kinda seems feasible. The reactors aren't all that big, so in terms of hardware mass it's nothing startling. They're starting to manufacture their own capacitors, and don't need anyone to supply them with turbines or advanced lasers or superconductors. The reactors are shippable by rail. Regulators are already signaling a light hand, even in the US for D-T fusion. If Helion achieves their projected cost of one cent/kWh, then it will be cheaper to replace even a brand-new coal or gas plant than to keep paying for fuel. (The big leap of course is getting to a fully-working prototype.)

eppp 4y ago

They should start by making a helion factory factory first.

ryandvm 4y ago
I'm here for the Java jokes
- eppp 4y ago
  I was thinking factorio but java also works

_0w8t 4y ago

Tokamac cost depends on its volume which is like forth power of its magnetic field strength. If some engineering breakthrough allows to go to 40 Tesla in a tokamac compared with 20 of the designs like SPARK, then a tokamak that can be transported by a truck and factory-built is feasible.

badcppdev 4y ago
Important to note that the Helion approach doesn't use a Tokamak although it absolutely does benefit from increasing the size of the system.

_0w8t 4y ago

I am very skeptical about Helion, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vUPhsFoniw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vUPhsFoniw

badcppdev 4y ago
That's a pretty pathetic summary of the Helion technology. The youtuber seems to have watched the Real Engineering video but not actually done any research on the other information that Helion has published in the last 12 months. A lot of the criticisms are due to Real Engineering video missing details. The youtuber is unprofessionally rude as well.
DennisP 4y ago
FRCs have been around a long time but Helion isn't just making an FRC, they're making two, slamming them into each other, and then compressing with a magnetic field. The neutrons from D-D fusion are much lower energy than D-T fusion, and don't cause the same damage to materials. They're similar to fission neutrons, and modern fission reactors last sixty years without refurbishment. According to Helion and other sources I've seen, their hybrid reaction would only release 6% of its energy as neutron radiation, compared to 80% from D-T. They could also build reactors dedicated to D-D and hence He3 production, designing their power plants to mostly burn D-He3. That would reduce power plant neutrons to less than 1% of power output. Regarding net power and scaling, I'm not competent to talk about it but here's the CEO of Helion going into some detail on their view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1vyMcqiVtA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1vyMcqiVtA
- _0w8t 4y ago
  With Helion pulse design peak neuron flux luminosity will still be much higher than that was observed in nuclear reactors. Compared with tokamaks their magnets will be directly exposed to it. Plus their idea to convert fusion energy directly into electricity depends on many unknowns to assert that it will work with reasonable efficiency. So even if their approach may work to produce positive energy output in few years, a practical device will still be far away. Edit: Helion itself admits that net positive in electricity with D-3He is tricky even with their design at that presentation. So most likely their first prototype will be D+D with all the problems associated with high-energy neutrons.