13 ms·

Guess tech workers should have unionized when they had the chance. As if capital was going to let the most powerful group of workers that's ever existed continu

• Apocryphon 4y ago
  If this thread had been made a year ago, even six months ago, it would’ve truly been a grasshopper and the ants situation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34199176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34199176
• AnEro 4y ago
  Doubt that will happen, we still go to this VC's website for content aggregation. Most are caught in hustle culter and want to be, and others are doing it for independance and power and won't want a union. Ultimately I don't think our type of nerds will get together on this style of politics
  • toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Important to keep in mind this forum’s audience is a minority in everything except said forum’s viewership. If you’re taking anything from it besides ideas, entertainment, and a dopamine hit, you’re doing it wrong.
    • AnEro 4y ago
      Personally I subscribe to the 'you are what you eat' view of social media, we are social creatures, and we will always adjust ourselves to fit what we feel is THE group. Any media then makes subconscious biases whether we like it or not. I don't think YCombinator is doing brainwashing us or some crazy conspiracy, more we will conform to this audience's thinking which ultimately is about start-ups and tech company's and unions don't fit that narrative. > Important to keep in mind this forum’s audience is a minority in everything except said forum’s viewership. True but acting like Hacker news articles over years isn't one of the best social media based predictor of tech trends is a little silly
      • Phlarp 4y ago
        >I don't think YCombinator is doing brainwashing us or some crazy conspiracy Try posting any kind of substantial critique of a YC company and see what happens to the submission. This site is rather open and shameless about it's manipulation. YC companies get to post job ads that are instantly boosted to the front page and nobody can comment on. They have an official "second chance" queue to force boost posts that didn't receive the "correct" amount of organic attention. If an individual is posting too many independent ideas they get re-educated by Dang or shadowbanned
        • deleted 4y ago
          [deleted]
        • AnEro 4y ago
          Very interesting I didn't know. But still I don't think they are intentionally flagging things that encourage unionization. However, I do think if it is related to their companies the will now that you say that lol
        • xboxnolifes 4y ago
          > Try posting any kind of substantial critique of a YC company and see what happens to the submission. I would assume it would do poorly, and then the submitter would realize the site isn't for them and then leave. Reinforcing the fact that the people who stay already had a certain bias.
• kilgnad 4y ago
  In the last decade or so, there were several times I brought this up on HN (anonymously), and each time my opinion was attacked as not making any sense. Times change.
  • s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I'm not sure that they have changed. People brought it up before and people are bringing it up now and they'll continue bringing it up. I think the tech workers are generally still opposed to the idea
    • kilgnad 4y ago
      No the thing that has changed is the attacks. The upvotes I'm getting on that post indicates support. Maybe two or three years ago I'd have negative karma.
    • dismantlethesun 4y ago
      It doesn’t make sense to unionize when you are powerful and you can use “merit” to raise your power and compensation. As the economy downturns, more and more software devs on the low end will be pushed to the point where unionization makes sense. They were never really powerful or well paid, but had hope of rising to a higher class. It’s that aspiration that lead to people discounting the ida of unionization.
      • plorkyeran 4y ago
        It makes sense to unionize when you're powerful because that's when you actually have the leverage to put things in place in preparation for the inevitable downturn. Waiting until you need the union is too late.
        • Apocryphon 4y ago
          Grasshopper and the ants!
      • 4y ago
• giantg2 4y ago
  What would the union solve in this specific instance? Tech has had high pay gor a long time, mostly due to cheap money. If the cheap money goes away, how do they pay these inflated salaries? Overall, I think unions can be good because you have clear terms defined in a contract. That provides a more fair environment when it comes to worker treatment, calibration, etc. But I don't see it helping with pay in most cases, certainly not in terms of preventing these layoffs either.
  • arcticbull 4y ago
    Nothing to do with cheap money, tech companies are some of the most profitable and revenue efficient companies in history.
    • s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I don't think unions bring anything to the table for Tech workers that can't be done without one. Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union.
      • arcticbull 4y ago
        > Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union. No need for sick time, huh. Mat leave, pat leave. Generally US worker protections are some of the weakest in the developed world. So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. A lot of those protections you allude to were actually obtained because of unions. The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are all thanks to organized labor. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...
        • s1artibartfast 4y ago
          We are specifically talking about tech workers here. They generally do have extensive sick time and leave policies. >So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. Maybe I'm missing something, but almost all big tech companies have these and never had a union. >The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are all thanks to organized labor. When was the last time US programmers were locked in an office? I have never heard of this as a big issue.
• cjbgkagh 4y ago
  I think there has been a cynical push for unions to adopt DEI policies in order to make them less palatable. This seems to have been effective.
• tukantje 4y ago
  I have been screaming this for a while but average tech worker is a "future billionaire" so... It might be the greatest lie we are made to believe. edit: most of us have zero to no protection, our jobs are not protected also from titles perspective. the only reason the power asymmetry is palatable was due to supply/demand for engineers. take that away, what do you have left?
• kilgnad 4y ago
  On a side note I feel we can take Unionization into the tech world as a start up or an App. Imagine a blind-esque App that just allows everyone participating to vote anonymously for a union. Then AFTER a union is official then leaders and instigators could reveal themselves or maybe there were no leaders or instigators the whole thing was p2p. I feel something as easy and convenient as blind can allow "unions in limbo" to form at basically every company. Basically the votes for a union are in, the requirements are met but nobody is really running the show. When times change and companies pull this mass layoff BS... then people can immediately elect a rep to take the reigns as a point of negotiation...? Is an organization that constantly takes something similar to an HOA fee really required all the time? We just really need to have organized negotiations and communications with management WHEN needed. Like the immune system.. activation only during emergencies. For example Amazon is conducting multiple rounds of layoffs. If this app existed... No process is needed for workers to form a central point of negotiation as the union is already there in limbo. Software engineers seeing the mass layoffs in the industry All immediately nominate and vote for union reps in the app. The rep has the position for 1 year (as dictated by the app), and will be paid his current salary to do union stuff. He becomes the admin for the blind-esque forum for the company and runs polls and things like that to help the software engineers do coordinated negotiation with management. Here's the other part of it. If this app existed. Amazon would be aware. They wouldn't perform a random lay off UNLESS it was absolutely required because it would reactivate the union in limbo. So this would prevent even the first round of lay offs presuming that the layoffs have to do with what the article is implying here. After a year there will be another election for another rep. If things have calmed and nobody really cares any more the rep will be unelected by vote or lack of participation and the union will go back into limbo. If things are still bad everyone will vote for the rep (or a new rep) to stay in place for one more year... Every company will have the same basic templated bylaws made by the app with additional stuff amended by the union rep. The idea is only emergency activation when needed only. Good idea? Yay or nay. Not saying I'm going to do this, but contact me at the email in my profile if you'd be potentially interested working on something like this. (just fyi the email in my account is not my main email and the name is not my real name and the phone number used to register it is a burner, you should do the same if contacting me, this IS a touchy subject)
  • 4y ago
• sassyonsunday 4y ago
  Nobody saw an end to the good times in sight. I've hopped jobs about 5 times in my career and saw a 20-30% pay raise each time. What incentive existed to unionize in that environment? Unionization only makes sense if you think the good times won't last.
  • Supermancho 4y ago
    > I've hopped jobs about 5 times in my career and saw a 20-30% pay raise each time > What incentive existed to unionize in that environment? These situations are not incompatible. > Unionization only makes sense if you think the good times won't last. "Good times" is a soft term that translates to "when the employer's short term goals line up with your specific employee goals"...ostensibly to keep getting paid those big numbers.
    • sassyonsunday 4y ago
      Sure. I was just sharing my POV as someone who never cared about unionization and works in the industry. I associated unions with manufacturing and filmmaking. It didn't occur to me that they would be a good thing for software engineers since we seemed to be treated extremely well already. I also never trusted people who spoke about unions because I figured they may have ulterior motives, like placing themselves in a position of power by acting as a middleman between myself and the companies that pay me so that they could take a cut. I'm not saying what I felt was true. It was just my instinct and because I was already richer than my wildest dreams (I come from a lower middle class background) so I didn't care to overthink it. An "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks this way and since unions require popular support it's a data point toward understanding why software engineering unions aren't widespread.
• charcircuit 4y ago
  Even if I was in a union I would still vote to have a layoff. Most of my compensation is in stock so I want what is best for the stock price.
• HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  The remaining ones have the chance right now. Do you see tech unions starting up?
• zackmorris 4y ago
  I'm all for unions, as they are perhaps a first step away from the rat race towards progressive change. But if there's going to be a sea change, here are some other dichotomies to consider: Individual brands <-> Right to anonymity 40 hour workweek <-> Seasonal work Manual labor <-> Automation Rent seeking <-> Commons Service economy <-> Information economy Wealth inequality <-> Middle class Welfare <-> UBI Raising retirement age <-> Lowering retirement age Minimum wage <-> Living wage Intellectual property <-> Public domain Tax reduction <-> Progressive taxation Usury <-> Access to capital Monopoly <-> Consumer protections For-profit insurance <-> Single-payer healthcare Corruption <-> Transparency Mass incarceration <-> Equal justice under the law Externalities like climate change <-> Stewardship Big brother <-> Reproductive privacy War <-> Diplomacy Human trafficking <-> Human rights Liberty <-> Justice Department of Defense <-> Department of Peace Discrimination <-> Diversity The idea is to restore a healthy work/life balance for all and rebuild the American Dream. My lived experience has been that the USA has moved in what might be candidly called a regressive direction the last 20 years, and especially since 1980 as the rights of capital have eclipsed the rights of labor. We've embraced the objective for so long out of necessity that we've neglected the subjective as a basis for quality of life. In other words: in the face of global threats like climate change, young people can no longer assume that business-as-usual will save them. Things must change, for our very survival. Our ancestors faced similar challenges over a century ago during the progressive era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era https://progressives.house.gov/the-progressive-promise https://progressives.house.gov/the-progressive-promise