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Electrify America “fries” EVs at charging stations

102 points by danbr 4y ago

foxyv 4y ago
Looking forward to a teardown of an EA charger by someone familiar with power circuits. I wonder if they are shorting primary to secondary and getting 2400V AC straight into their car battery... Probably welding the plug to the car too.
- adolph 4y ago
  Probably too spendy for BigClive. Munro Live has one about the NACS (N. Am Charging Standard) announcement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmjofPpThWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmjofPpThWU
  - rasz 4y ago
    mikeselectricstuff (guy is a legend) did: Tesla European CCS adapter teardown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-R49NdernY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-R49NdernY Ubitricity EV Smart Charging cable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-seqXymUT-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-seqXymUT-g Hyundai Kona EV High voltage junction box https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpigvK8v8Tg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpigvK8v8Tg Renault Zoe EV Battery Charger Block ( BCB ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=argrHjADn8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=argrHjADn8g Renault Zoe EV inverter ( PEB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drS3sEsxOO8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drS3sEsxOO8 TLDR: CSS is a shitshow
- jeffbee 4y ago
  The charging stations near me are built with the AC-DC converters in one set of cabinets and the dispensers in separate cabinets. The dispensers don't seem to have any AC power available to fault into the car.
  - foxyv 4y ago
    This is purely speculation because we don't have the chargers to tear down. There could be a fault in the transformer, pushing a couple kilovolts AC into the power rectifier and shorting it, then pushing it straight into the dispenser and the car. However, for all we know it's the cars that are shorting themselves and taking 400 volts at full amperage and dying before the dispenser blows a breaker. I wouldn't be surprised if the cause was a battery fault either. This is why I would love to see a tear down. What type of battery fault prevention is in an EA charger? What kind of step down system? Do they use a battery as a buffer? Just plain curious.
    - creaturemachine 4y ago
      No need for speculation, it's all here in the sales brochure. https://new.abb.com/ev-charging/high-power-charging https://new.abb.com/ev-charging/high-power-charging Fun fact, getting 350 kW into your Lucid requires pulling from two rectifier cabinets.
- PM_me_your_math 4y ago
  Spot Welding America
- CaliforniaKarl 4y ago
  What? > CCS vehicle inlets are equipped with an electromechanically controlled locking bolt … designed to withstand high pull-out forces. Source: https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/use-ccs-connectors-to-simplify-the-implementation-of-safe-ev-fast-charging-systems https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/use-ccs-connectors-to-si...
  - foxyv 4y ago
    Yeah, that may be why they couldn't be removed. Although, why the locking bolt didn't retract when power was lost is a bit of a mystery. Usually power is required to keep it in place. The plastic may have melted it into place though.
- DannyBee 4y ago
  The high power ones are putting DC into the car for starters. The two extra prongs are the DC. Conversion would generally prevent the issue you cite. They are converting three phase ac, and usually only 480v. Isolation failure would not fry the car like this because it would fault first. They are separate ac and DC cabinets with proper controls. It may still be overvolting the DC, just not this particular way. It is much more likely the rectifier is fucked or something. Placing 300kw (or even 150kw) of DC at like 4x the right voltage would make more than just a loud bang. It would instantly melt most insulation, for starters. The bang is an mccb or something catching the fucked up rectifier These cars likely got overvolt at light amperage. Otherwise lots of things would have sparked and burst into flame
  - foxyv 4y ago
    Sounds like you know more about these than I do. Part of why I was curious about a tear down. I'm wondering if any corners were cut on these such as improper isolation. Naturally it could also be the car itself has a short that blew itself and the dispenser up. Maybe a rubbing wire on the car with a high resistance short that melted and bridged then tripped the MCCB temporarily disabling the charger. Judging by the quality of automobile maintenance and manufacturing I would bet on the latter now that I think of it.
    - cNuckIGGER 4y ago
      [dead]
kloch 4y ago
This is particularly disturbing because often EA chargers are the only reliable fast chargers around for CCS, so it's not like you can just avoid them for another network on a long trip.
- danbr 4y ago
  I’m somewhat surprised there aren’t more EV (DC) charging companies around. There are dozens of various oil companies who have their own gas stations (subsidized by the oil industry?). Why don’t we see more electric companies building their own charging networks as well?
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Gas stations are usually franchises. Gas is sold on the thinnest of margins; it's the snacks inside the store and other things that actually generate a profit, and none of that but the franchise fee for the name actually goes to the oil company.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      You'd think that a fast charger would be even more valuable. You've got a captive customer for ~20 minutes, should be even easier to sell them stuff. The problem is that it's enough time to walk to the restaurant next door rather than spending money at the gas station store. I'm sure somebody will figure it out. Probably something like the food court model rather than current gas stations which are basically convenience stores.
      - a4isms 4y ago
        Time to rediscover the drive-in restaurant. Only in 2023, it has: 1. Fast charging in every spot; 2. Espresso and high-margin dessert-in-a-cup drinks served right to your vehicle; 3. Free high-speed unlimited WiFi for customers. Why get out of your car to walk to the restaurant next door? Connect to the free WiFi, turn on the charging, and place your order. Then relax in your car and leave a low-effort comment on Hacker News.
moepstar 4y ago
Ok, wow, another day, more bad news regarding EA? https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/10o33jo/electrify_america_chargers_have_been_hacked/ https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/10o33jo/e...
- Underphil 4y ago
  Seems like EA are challenging EA for the worst company award.
russfink 4y ago
Gas pumps get periodic state issued inspections. Why not EV chargers?
- xattt 4y ago
  Because it’s a regulatory Wild West right now. It’s probably assumed that chargers would be certified under electrical regulations.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    Right, and the electrical regulators/inspection agencies probably assume the state DOT is in charge of inspections.
- RicoElectrico 4y ago
  In Poland UDT (which among other things inspects elevators, cranes, boilers etc.) takes care of that. I've seen their test lab car parked nearby my home regularly. https://www.udt.gov.pl/przewodnik-udt-stacje-i-punkty-ladowania-pojazdow-elektrycznych https://www.udt.gov.pl/przewodnik-udt-stacje-i-punkty-ladowa...
- cduzz 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - last_responder 4y ago
    Where would you get enough pickle juice to fill a gas station supply gas tank?
    - cduzz 4y ago
      It doesn't take a lot of "not thing" to make a thing no longer a thing. https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/x1mn7w/septic_pumping_company_delivers_milk_on_sunday/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/x1mn7w/s... And pickle juice is just an example of random impurity.... (I think the most common impurity is grit and / or water; often stirred up after new gas is added to a tank)
t344344 4y ago
Some dirt in charging port may increase resistance between surfaces, create more heat and even arc. Ports probably got welded together.
- NickM 4y ago
  If the explanation were that simple, one would expect to see the same problem at all kinds of EV fast chargers, not just EA ones.
- Kirby64 4y ago
  Every DCFC system has temperature monitoring at the port, as well as voltage monitoring on both sides of the system (port and supply). If that voltage gets too big, it should disconnect/put itself into a fault condition. If the EA chargers are not doing this, this is a huge safety hazard. Given the report is a 'large bang', it doesn't seem to me to be a heat-based melting issue. Seems like a sudden short or surge of power.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    In my experience, both with Tesla and EA failures, that temperature monitoring at the handle may be the most common failure. Usually manifests as a 100A cap on charging speed. My guess for the loud bang, based on when these reports first happened, is that it's the pyrofuse blowing. They're not quiet.
tapoxi 4y ago
I will never buy a Tesla, but the CCS network is pretty garbage in the U.S. right now. EA regularly has outages, their newer models (which I have not used) fry vehicles or fail in cold weather, I've only heard bad things about EVGo but never used them. Fortunately I stick to home (Metro Boston) and haven't had any serious problems with ChargePoint stations heading up to Mount Desert Island in Maine, the farthest trips I've done.
- option 4y ago
  for certain large segments of EV buyers, especially in US, Tesla is objectively the best EV right now.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - helpfulclippy 4y ago
    Agreed. Last year I literally put a spreadsheet together of every single electric car approved for sale in the US, with columns for every specification I cared about. I expected to find Tesla to be overhyped, just based on the fact that it is run by a relentless hypefiend. But for what I wanted (a hatchback with fast acceleration and decent range, and big enough to accommodate a bike without taking the wheel off), the Model Y came out on top. Sometimes specs aren't everything of course. I don't buy Sony. I don't care what the PS5's specs look like -- I'm not buying Sony. I think I might have heard one or two people feel similarly about Elon and/or Tesla. ;)
    - wara23arish 4y ago
      im curious whats your problem with Sony? I’ve generally loved their products ever since using the CD players
      - cduzz 4y ago
        DRM root kits back in the day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk... Not cool owning your customer's boxes...
magwa101 4y ago
[dead]
cptcobalt 4y ago
Electrify America is getting far too much money and is using it to effectively anti-sell EVs with their janky, broken, and insecure infrastructure. Their funding comes from government subsidies and traditional automakers making reparations for emissions scandals (Volkswagen, $2B). This network is basically being built out of malicious compliance, without reasonable desires to make it good and reliable... My mind will only change when I see new generation EA DCFC post & charger that's designed for scale, high stall reliability, and a mean-time between service to rival that of Tesla's supercharger network.
- drewg123 4y ago
  What government subsidies is EA getting? I thought their funding was initially from VW, as reparations for the VW emissions scandal..?
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Local
- dheera 4y ago
  Is this an issue with EA or with Rivian? I've charged a Tesla at EA a few times with a CCS adapter without issues. Also, EVGo never seems to work.
  - danbr 4y ago
    EA. Other EV owners (Bolt) have run into the same issue at EA chargers as mentioned in the article.
- Kirby64 4y ago
  Really seems like perverse incentives to me... EA was created due to the VW scandal, and they were forced to spend this money this way. Except, VW's bread and butter is still gas cars. They're not incentivized to herald EVs at all; if anything, they'd prefer it to go as slowly as possible so they can continue to make money off their gas fleet.
ilyt 4y ago
I'd imagine overvoltage/overcurrent protection should be on car side ? It would be interesting root cause analysis to see what caused that.
- amelius 4y ago
  I dunno but with computer power supplies and the like the protection is always in the PSU.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    It's kinda weird in case of cars. The "PSU" (the device that converts current and voltage and sets the right value for charging) in case of AC charging is in the car, but for DC charging it's pretty much "car asks for that much current, charger provides". So DC charger going haywire could damage the battery, and say DC charger putting high voltage on the control lines could also do some damage. Protecting against both is possible, just adds cost
- maliker 4y ago
  Yes, surely a relay could have prevented this. I did a little googling, and since fast chargers can deliver up to 350kW, it does appear that a breaker rated for that power could be pretty expensive and large (e.g. full panel sized, $1,000). But that’s just a wild guess. Still cheaper than a couple years of insurance payments.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
jhoechtl 4y ago
What is the price per kW at an EV charging station compared to what you pay for power at home? How are home owners subsidizing the EV network?
- yardie 4y ago
  EA is .40/kw or $.31/kw + $4/mo membership. Our electrical utility in the south is $.13-.17/kw So to fill a Tesla battery from near empty to full ~80kwH is around $25.
  - jhoechtl 4y ago
    You get 250 mileage? Seems like a draw with a diesel car
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Commercial fast charging as your only fueling option is definitely not the best way to use an EV. 4 cents per kWh at 10pm is the way. Instead of a device that you monitor the tank fill status on a day to day basis, treat it like a phone that's always full when leave in the morning. The paradigm shift is refreshing in that regard. Yes, a significant minority of people do not yet have good access to home charging yet. Yet. We'll get there.
      - yardie 4y ago
        The great thing about EV charging is you can do it almost anywhere there is electricity available. You can do it at home, a charging station, the supermarket, visiting friends or family, or at the park. I've literally hung out and asked friends to plug in while we're in the back playing cards. And when we're done the battery is topped up and its only cost me ~$2 and case of beer. Refueling becomes less a place you have to go and more a thing you do as part of the vehicle. Like paying for parking. I think a lot of drivers have been so conditioned to needing to go to a gas station they still treat charging as going to a gas station, except to charge.
    - 4y ago
macinjosh 4y ago
One often over looked aspect of EVs are their relative fragility compared to a ICE vehicle. I see it as an analog/digital divide. You can get an ICE to temporarily run with all sorts of deficits, incorrect inputs, or hacks. It will still kinda work. EVs are way more digital. If one thing in the chain breaks the bit flips to false and you're done until the tow truck comes and an expert with special, secret knowledge and tools can disassemble it and flip the bit back to true so to speak.
- helf 4y ago
  As someone who has literally cut and crimped fuel lines to cut off a cylinder, used JBWeld to temp seal heads and blocks, pulled injectors, disconnected spark plugs etc etc to get something to limp back home.. yep. My main beef with EVs (and I own a Chevy Volt PHEV that I /adore/) is the fact they are rolling blackboxes. My Volt is the least shadetree mechanic friendly vehicle I have owned other than maybe my VehiCROSS I had for awhile. I know most people don't care, but it irks me. And I will not own a pure EV anytime soon for a host of reasons and that is a big part of it. This desire manufacturers have of making their vehicles IAP Vehicle-as-a-Service (ICE and EVs) really pisses me off and I plan on driving my Volt (which has the OnStar modules entirely disabled so I have 0 analytics/metrics/tracking happening) forever. I miss my 100% analog 1981 VW Rabbit LS diesel. sniff.
  - thisarticle 4y ago
    You’re complaining about a car that has both ice and EV components. Of course it’s going to be a pain in the ass to work on.
    - helf 4y ago
      No shit? I even specified that? I wasn't complaining specifically about the volt but in general with the direction everyone has/is moving.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Yes and no. An old school ICEV, sure. But having had my pickup up and die going across an intersection due to a failed part of the fuel injection system, I don't think it's safe to say modern ICEVs are more reliable than EVs in that regard. There's lots of things to go wrong which will shut you down just as instantly as a big failure in an EV.
Havoc 4y ago
They wanted to saw off a charging cable??? With potential juice on both sides (grid and car with fried electronics)? You could not pay me enough money to do that even if “switched off”
waffletower 4y ago
Is "Electrify America" partly or fully owned by Big Oil?
- pornel 4y ago
  There's Shell Recharge in Europe and I've literally never seen any of their chargers working properly. Some locations even only support paying with their RFID card that you can only get by mail. Imagine arriving at a station and surprise, you need to wait 5 working days to charge!
  - bartvk 4y ago
    In The Netherlands, I have reasonable (not flawless) experiences with Shell Recharge. In Spain, I found a Shell Recharge station that didn't work with the Shell Recharge app, nor with the Shell Recharge RFID card. It wanted a credit card, which then failed.
phkahler 4y ago
Worked in that industry for 2 years making big chargers. The electronic latch that locks the plug into the vehicle is IMHO the single stupidest (even dangerous) thing. Anything unexpected goes wrong and you can't unplug the cable and you are stranded. I have no idea why any vehicle manufacturer would put this on their car.
- 1970-01-01 4y ago
  >Anything unexpected goes wrong and you can't unplug the cable and you are stranded This isn't necessarily true. The EV manufacturer should have an emergency release cable somewhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fSuYx2TS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fSuYx2TS8
  - phkahler 4y ago
    Like the emergency door unlock on the Corvette where the guy and his dog died in the heat because he didn't know about it?
- denysvitali 4y ago
  > I have no idea why any vehicle manufacturer would put this on their car. I'm not an expert, but I'll assume that the opposite is as dangerous. I think that if you unplug a car that is charging car, by tilting the connector in the wrong way ypu might have a dangerous hazard both for the car and for the person unplugging it. DC chargers can be quite powerful (480V/100A), so I really doubt it's a good idea do mess with them in general.
  - phkahler 4y ago
    The is a signal in the connector that is designed to disconnect first to disable charging before the high current conductors disconnect. It may be a leftover from the AC charge plug though, so not sure if it's sufficient for high power DC. Still a crappy standard.
notacoward 4y ago
My first thought that one side or the other is failing to follow some part of the charging standard and it's hard to tell which. Then I saw that it has happened with Rivian and Ford and Chevy vehicles, so it's pretty clearly on the charger side. Never used EA and now I suspect I never will. They're just evil or incompetent or both. I had initial issues with billing on EVgo but otherwise they've been fine, and I've never had much problem with Chargepoint (except for rarity of compatible L3). That plus L2 at home has been quite sufficient.
gorkish 4y ago
The reports are consistent with the EA cabs doing something that are causing the packs to blow their pyrofuses. The only thing that really makes sense is some kind of transient DC overvoltage. The problem with pyrofuses is that they are slow. They will stop some kind of catastrophic event like a battery fire, but they are too slow to prevent damage. Having seen inside their cabinets, I wouldn't plug into one if you paid me. Building a reliable charging network is apparently only a secondary business goal of Electrify America.
- tkanarsky 4y ago
  Hah, yeah the EA cabinets are a bit messy inside compared to the superchargers [0]. Smells like they were rushing to get an MVP out without spending too much, probably many more COTS components in there and not as much thought put into harness routing and custom assemblies. I know EA sources chargers from multiple manufacturers; maybe some of them are better in this regard. [0]: https://i.redd.it/electrify-america-charger-vs-tesla-supercharger-internals-v0-05nqwovozf9a1.png?s=664c84eb73a8b7aa3d65cfbf331d27c624f73e1e https://i.redd.it/electrify-america-charger-vs-tesla-superch...

102 points by danbr 4y ago

Looking forward to a teardown of an EA charger by someone familiar with power circuits. I wonder if they are shorting primary to secondary and getting 2400V AC straight into their car battery... Probably welding the plug to the car too.

adolph 4y ago
Probably too spendy for BigClive. Munro Live has one about the NACS (N. Am Charging Standard) announcement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmjofPpThWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmjofPpThWU
- rasz 4y ago
  mikeselectricstuff (guy is a legend) did: Tesla European CCS adapter teardown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-R49NdernY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-R49NdernY Ubitricity EV Smart Charging cable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-seqXymUT-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-seqXymUT-g Hyundai Kona EV High voltage junction box https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpigvK8v8Tg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpigvK8v8Tg Renault Zoe EV Battery Charger Block ( BCB ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=argrHjADn8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=argrHjADn8g Renault Zoe EV inverter ( PEB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drS3sEsxOO8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drS3sEsxOO8 TLDR: CSS is a shitshow
jeffbee 4y ago
The charging stations near me are built with the AC-DC converters in one set of cabinets and the dispensers in separate cabinets. The dispensers don't seem to have any AC power available to fault into the car.
- foxyv 4y ago
  This is purely speculation because we don't have the chargers to tear down. There could be a fault in the transformer, pushing a couple kilovolts AC into the power rectifier and shorting it, then pushing it straight into the dispenser and the car. However, for all we know it's the cars that are shorting themselves and taking 400 volts at full amperage and dying before the dispenser blows a breaker. I wouldn't be surprised if the cause was a battery fault either. This is why I would love to see a tear down. What type of battery fault prevention is in an EA charger? What kind of step down system? Do they use a battery as a buffer? Just plain curious.
  - creaturemachine 4y ago
    No need for speculation, it's all here in the sales brochure. https://new.abb.com/ev-charging/high-power-charging https://new.abb.com/ev-charging/high-power-charging Fun fact, getting 350 kW into your Lucid requires pulling from two rectifier cabinets.
PM_me_your_math 4y ago
Spot Welding America
CaliforniaKarl 4y ago
What? > CCS vehicle inlets are equipped with an electromechanically controlled locking bolt … designed to withstand high pull-out forces. Source: https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/use-ccs-connectors-to-simplify-the-implementation-of-safe-ev-fast-charging-systems https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/use-ccs-connectors-to-si...
- foxyv 4y ago
  Yeah, that may be why they couldn't be removed. Although, why the locking bolt didn't retract when power was lost is a bit of a mystery. Usually power is required to keep it in place. The plastic may have melted it into place though.
DannyBee 4y ago
The high power ones are putting DC into the car for starters. The two extra prongs are the DC. Conversion would generally prevent the issue you cite. They are converting three phase ac, and usually only 480v. Isolation failure would not fry the car like this because it would fault first. They are separate ac and DC cabinets with proper controls. It may still be overvolting the DC, just not this particular way. It is much more likely the rectifier is fucked or something. Placing 300kw (or even 150kw) of DC at like 4x the right voltage would make more than just a loud bang. It would instantly melt most insulation, for starters. The bang is an mccb or something catching the fucked up rectifier These cars likely got overvolt at light amperage. Otherwise lots of things would have sparked and burst into flame
- foxyv 4y ago
  Sounds like you know more about these than I do. Part of why I was curious about a tear down. I'm wondering if any corners were cut on these such as improper isolation. Naturally it could also be the car itself has a short that blew itself and the dispenser up. Maybe a rubbing wire on the car with a high resistance short that melted and bridged then tripped the MCCB temporarily disabling the charger. Judging by the quality of automobile maintenance and manufacturing I would bet on the latter now that I think of it.
  - cNuckIGGER 4y ago
    [dead]

kloch 4y ago

This is particularly disturbing because often EA chargers are the only reliable fast chargers around for CCS, so it's not like you can just avoid them for another network on a long trip.

danbr 4y ago
I’m somewhat surprised there aren’t more EV (DC) charging companies around. There are dozens of various oil companies who have their own gas stations (subsidized by the oil industry?). Why don’t we see more electric companies building their own charging networks as well?
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Gas stations are usually franchises. Gas is sold on the thinnest of margins; it's the snacks inside the store and other things that actually generate a profit, and none of that but the franchise fee for the name actually goes to the oil company.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    You'd think that a fast charger would be even more valuable. You've got a captive customer for ~20 minutes, should be even easier to sell them stuff. The problem is that it's enough time to walk to the restaurant next door rather than spending money at the gas station store. I'm sure somebody will figure it out. Probably something like the food court model rather than current gas stations which are basically convenience stores.
    - a4isms 4y ago
      Time to rediscover the drive-in restaurant. Only in 2023, it has: 1. Fast charging in every spot; 2. Espresso and high-margin dessert-in-a-cup drinks served right to your vehicle; 3. Free high-speed unlimited WiFi for customers. Why get out of your car to walk to the restaurant next door? Connect to the free WiFi, turn on the charging, and place your order. Then relax in your car and leave a low-effort comment on Hacker News.

moepstar 4y ago

Ok, wow, another day, more bad news regarding EA? https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/10o33jo/electrify_america_chargers_have_been_hacked/ https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/10o33jo/e...

Underphil 4y ago
Seems like EA are challenging EA for the worst company award.

russfink 4y ago

Gas pumps get periodic state issued inspections. Why not EV chargers?

xattt 4y ago
Because it’s a regulatory Wild West right now. It’s probably assumed that chargers would be certified under electrical regulations.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  Right, and the electrical regulators/inspection agencies probably assume the state DOT is in charge of inspections.
RicoElectrico 4y ago
In Poland UDT (which among other things inspects elevators, cranes, boilers etc.) takes care of that. I've seen their test lab car parked nearby my home regularly. https://www.udt.gov.pl/przewodnik-udt-stacje-i-punkty-ladowania-pojazdow-elektrycznych https://www.udt.gov.pl/przewodnik-udt-stacje-i-punkty-ladowa...
cduzz 4y ago
[flagged]
- last_responder 4y ago
  Where would you get enough pickle juice to fill a gas station supply gas tank?
  - cduzz 4y ago
    It doesn't take a lot of "not thing" to make a thing no longer a thing. https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/x1mn7w/septic_pumping_company_delivers_milk_on_sunday/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/x1mn7w/s... And pickle juice is just an example of random impurity.... (I think the most common impurity is grit and / or water; often stirred up after new gas is added to a tank)

t344344 4y ago

Some dirt in charging port may increase resistance between surfaces, create more heat and even arc. Ports probably got welded together.

NickM 4y ago
If the explanation were that simple, one would expect to see the same problem at all kinds of EV fast chargers, not just EA ones.
Kirby64 4y ago
Every DCFC system has temperature monitoring at the port, as well as voltage monitoring on both sides of the system (port and supply). If that voltage gets too big, it should disconnect/put itself into a fault condition. If the EA chargers are not doing this, this is a huge safety hazard. Given the report is a 'large bang', it doesn't seem to me to be a heat-based melting issue. Seems like a sudden short or surge of power.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  In my experience, both with Tesla and EA failures, that temperature monitoring at the handle may be the most common failure. Usually manifests as a 100A cap on charging speed. My guess for the loud bang, based on when these reports first happened, is that it's the pyrofuse blowing. They're not quiet.

tapoxi 4y ago

I will never buy a Tesla, but the CCS network is pretty garbage in the U.S. right now. EA regularly has outages, their newer models (which I have not used) fry vehicles or fail in cold weather, I've only heard bad things about EVGo but never used them. Fortunately I stick to home (Metro Boston) and haven't had any serious problems with ChargePoint stations heading up to Mount Desert Island in Maine, the farthest trips I've done.

option 4y ago
for certain large segments of EV buyers, especially in US, Tesla is objectively the best EV right now.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- helpfulclippy 4y ago
  Agreed. Last year I literally put a spreadsheet together of every single electric car approved for sale in the US, with columns for every specification I cared about. I expected to find Tesla to be overhyped, just based on the fact that it is run by a relentless hypefiend. But for what I wanted (a hatchback with fast acceleration and decent range, and big enough to accommodate a bike without taking the wheel off), the Model Y came out on top. Sometimes specs aren't everything of course. I don't buy Sony. I don't care what the PS5's specs look like -- I'm not buying Sony. I think I might have heard one or two people feel similarly about Elon and/or Tesla. ;)
  - wara23arish 4y ago
    im curious whats your problem with Sony? I’ve generally loved their products ever since using the CD players
    - cduzz 4y ago
      DRM root kits back in the day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk... Not cool owning your customer's boxes...

magwa101 4y ago

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cptcobalt 4y ago

Electrify America is getting far too much money and is using it to effectively anti-sell EVs with their janky, broken, and insecure infrastructure. Their funding comes from government subsidies and traditional automakers making reparations for emissions scandals (Volkswagen, $2B). This network is basically being built out of malicious compliance, without reasonable desires to make it good and reliable... My mind will only change when I see new generation EA DCFC post & charger that's designed for scale, high stall reliability, and a mean-time between service to rival that of Tesla's supercharger network.

drewg123 4y ago
What government subsidies is EA getting? I thought their funding was initially from VW, as reparations for the VW emissions scandal..?
- aaomidi 4y ago
  Local
dheera 4y ago
Is this an issue with EA or with Rivian? I've charged a Tesla at EA a few times with a CCS adapter without issues. Also, EVGo never seems to work.
- danbr 4y ago
  EA. Other EV owners (Bolt) have run into the same issue at EA chargers as mentioned in the article.
Kirby64 4y ago
Really seems like perverse incentives to me... EA was created due to the VW scandal, and they were forced to spend this money this way. Except, VW's bread and butter is still gas cars. They're not incentivized to herald EVs at all; if anything, they'd prefer it to go as slowly as possible so they can continue to make money off their gas fleet.

ilyt 4y ago

I'd imagine overvoltage/overcurrent protection should be on car side ? It would be interesting root cause analysis to see what caused that.

amelius 4y ago
I dunno but with computer power supplies and the like the protection is always in the PSU.
- ilyt 4y ago
  It's kinda weird in case of cars. The "PSU" (the device that converts current and voltage and sets the right value for charging) in case of AC charging is in the car, but for DC charging it's pretty much "car asks for that much current, charger provides". So DC charger going haywire could damage the battery, and say DC charger putting high voltage on the control lines could also do some damage. Protecting against both is possible, just adds cost
maliker 4y ago
Yes, surely a relay could have prevented this. I did a little googling, and since fast chargers can deliver up to 350kW, it does appear that a breaker rated for that power could be pretty expensive and large (e.g. full panel sized, $1,000). But that’s just a wild guess. Still cheaper than a couple years of insurance payments.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

jhoechtl 4y ago

What is the price per kW at an EV charging station compared to what you pay for power at home? How are home owners subsidizing the EV network?

yardie 4y ago
EA is .40/kw or $.31/kw + $4/mo membership. Our electrical utility in the south is $.13-.17/kw So to fill a Tesla battery from near empty to full ~80kwH is around $25.
- jhoechtl 4y ago
  You get 250 mileage? Seems like a draw with a diesel car
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Commercial fast charging as your only fueling option is definitely not the best way to use an EV. 4 cents per kWh at 10pm is the way. Instead of a device that you monitor the tank fill status on a day to day basis, treat it like a phone that's always full when leave in the morning. The paradigm shift is refreshing in that regard. Yes, a significant minority of people do not yet have good access to home charging yet. Yet. We'll get there.
    - yardie 4y ago
      The great thing about EV charging is you can do it almost anywhere there is electricity available. You can do it at home, a charging station, the supermarket, visiting friends or family, or at the park. I've literally hung out and asked friends to plug in while we're in the back playing cards. And when we're done the battery is topped up and its only cost me ~$2 and case of beer. Refueling becomes less a place you have to go and more a thing you do as part of the vehicle. Like paying for parking. I think a lot of drivers have been so conditioned to needing to go to a gas station they still treat charging as going to a gas station, except to charge.
  - 4y ago

macinjosh 4y ago

One often over looked aspect of EVs are their relative fragility compared to a ICE vehicle. I see it as an analog/digital divide. You can get an ICE to temporarily run with all sorts of deficits, incorrect inputs, or hacks. It will still kinda work. EVs are way more digital. If one thing in the chain breaks the bit flips to false and you're done until the tow truck comes and an expert with special, secret knowledge and tools can disassemble it and flip the bit back to true so to speak.

helf 4y ago
As someone who has literally cut and crimped fuel lines to cut off a cylinder, used JBWeld to temp seal heads and blocks, pulled injectors, disconnected spark plugs etc etc to get something to limp back home.. yep. My main beef with EVs (and I own a Chevy Volt PHEV that I /adore/) is the fact they are rolling blackboxes. My Volt is the least shadetree mechanic friendly vehicle I have owned other than maybe my VehiCROSS I had for awhile. I know most people don't care, but it irks me. And I will not own a pure EV anytime soon for a host of reasons and that is a big part of it. This desire manufacturers have of making their vehicles IAP Vehicle-as-a-Service (ICE and EVs) really pisses me off and I plan on driving my Volt (which has the OnStar modules entirely disabled so I have 0 analytics/metrics/tracking happening) forever. I miss my 100% analog 1981 VW Rabbit LS diesel. sniff.
- thisarticle 4y ago
  You’re complaining about a car that has both ice and EV components. Of course it’s going to be a pain in the ass to work on.
  - helf 4y ago
    No shit? I even specified that? I wasn't complaining specifically about the volt but in general with the direction everyone has/is moving.
rootusrootus 4y ago
Yes and no. An old school ICEV, sure. But having had my pickup up and die going across an intersection due to a failed part of the fuel injection system, I don't think it's safe to say modern ICEVs are more reliable than EVs in that regard. There's lots of things to go wrong which will shut you down just as instantly as a big failure in an EV.

Havoc 4y ago

They wanted to saw off a charging cable??? With potential juice on both sides (grid and car with fried electronics)? You could not pay me enough money to do that even if “switched off”

waffletower 4y ago

Is "Electrify America" partly or fully owned by Big Oil?

pornel 4y ago
There's Shell Recharge in Europe and I've literally never seen any of their chargers working properly. Some locations even only support paying with their RFID card that you can only get by mail. Imagine arriving at a station and surprise, you need to wait 5 working days to charge!
- bartvk 4y ago
  In The Netherlands, I have reasonable (not flawless) experiences with Shell Recharge. In Spain, I found a Shell Recharge station that didn't work with the Shell Recharge app, nor with the Shell Recharge RFID card. It wanted a credit card, which then failed.

phkahler 4y ago

Worked in that industry for 2 years making big chargers. The electronic latch that locks the plug into the vehicle is IMHO the single stupidest (even dangerous) thing. Anything unexpected goes wrong and you can't unplug the cable and you are stranded. I have no idea why any vehicle manufacturer would put this on their car.

1970-01-01 4y ago
>Anything unexpected goes wrong and you can't unplug the cable and you are stranded This isn't necessarily true. The EV manufacturer should have an emergency release cable somewhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fSuYx2TS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fSuYx2TS8
- phkahler 4y ago
  Like the emergency door unlock on the Corvette where the guy and his dog died in the heat because he didn't know about it?
denysvitali 4y ago
> I have no idea why any vehicle manufacturer would put this on their car. I'm not an expert, but I'll assume that the opposite is as dangerous. I think that if you unplug a car that is charging car, by tilting the connector in the wrong way ypu might have a dangerous hazard both for the car and for the person unplugging it. DC chargers can be quite powerful (480V/100A), so I really doubt it's a good idea do mess with them in general.
- phkahler 4y ago
  The is a signal in the connector that is designed to disconnect first to disable charging before the high current conductors disconnect. It may be a leftover from the AC charge plug though, so not sure if it's sufficient for high power DC. Still a crappy standard.

notacoward 4y ago

My first thought that one side or the other is failing to follow some part of the charging standard and it's hard to tell which. Then I saw that it has happened with Rivian and Ford and Chevy vehicles, so it's pretty clearly on the charger side. Never used EA and now I suspect I never will. They're just evil or incompetent or both. I had initial issues with billing on EVgo but otherwise they've been fine, and I've never had much problem with Chargepoint (except for rarity of compatible L3). That plus L2 at home has been quite sufficient.

gorkish 4y ago

The reports are consistent with the EA cabs doing something that are causing the packs to blow their pyrofuses. The only thing that really makes sense is some kind of transient DC overvoltage. The problem with pyrofuses is that they are slow. They will stop some kind of catastrophic event like a battery fire, but they are too slow to prevent damage. Having seen inside their cabinets, I wouldn't plug into one if you paid me. Building a reliable charging network is apparently only a secondary business goal of Electrify America.

tkanarsky 4y ago
Hah, yeah the EA cabinets are a bit messy inside compared to the superchargers [0]. Smells like they were rushing to get an MVP out without spending too much, probably many more COTS components in there and not as much thought put into harness routing and custom assemblies. I know EA sources chargers from multiple manufacturers; maybe some of them are better in this regard. [0]: https://i.redd.it/electrify-america-charger-vs-tesla-supercharger-internals-v0-05nqwovozf9a1.png?s=664c84eb73a8b7aa3d65cfbf331d27c624f73e1e https://i.redd.it/electrify-america-charger-vs-tesla-superch...