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At risk of triggering an uncomfortable discussion, why does it seem that European intellectuals in general appear more extreme than any of their American counte

At risk of triggering an uncomfortable discussion, why does it seem that European intellectuals in general appear more extreme than any of their American counterparts; and Eastern European Intellectuals take that extremeness even further, ultimately creating Communism. Is it "American Pragmatism" that prevents the extreme intellectual from forming in the United States? Is it a cultural respect for complete commitment to one's ideals in Europe that creates these widely accepted extreme intellectual personalities? I am seriously curious.

csdvrx 4y ago
I also wonder why. It seems to be that Europe doesn't like comfort or pleasure. I like the simple pleasure of drinking very cold water, so I keep water bottles in my fridge, and add icecubes from my fridge ice dispenser. Even separately, these things were almost impossible to get when I travelled to Europe: most bars and restaurants said they didn't have ice. And the cold water was maybe less warm than the ambient air, but not really cold. I believe we in the US are more focus on pleasure - and I'd roll pragmatism into pleasure.
- danny_codes 4y ago
  > It seems to be that Europe doesn't like comfort or pleasure. Ah yes, Amsterdam, the city known for its seriousness and lack of fun.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    Or Berlin. Or Rome, Paris, London, Barcelona… These famous cities where people hate enjoying themselves and never party ever. That said, I have to admit, I dislike ice-cold water.
- bsenftner 4y ago
  I'd say comfort and pleasure are not elevated with respect as they are in the 'States. Perhaps due to puritanical Christianity and the "Protestant ethic", comfort and pleasure tend to be viewed as luxuries and therefore desirable, therefore within the realm of corrupted desires, and therefore worthy of a form of reserved/frightened respect. I do not see the same value transference in conversations with Europeans.
- low_tech_love 4y ago
  They sure as *%#$ like comfort and they do enjoy pleasure, but it’s just a very different perspective to the American one. In Europe they see comfort in just fitting in with the standard things from the status quo; questioning too much and adding too many individual, custom things is seen negatively. In other words, ”we don’t need ice here, stop being such a snowflake.” In America having that individual touch is a more widespread thing, it has more value.
- tstrimple 4y ago
  Americans traded universal healthcare, free college education, maternity and paternity leave, vacation time, and the right to not be murdered by a cop “fearing for his life” for ice cold water. A very pragmatic trade it is said.
- cntainer 4y ago
  What a funny perspective, thanks for the laugh. I'm sure there isn't anyone in Europe who enjoys cold water, most of them lost their lives or got deported to the US during the last Tepid Water war /jk. The fact that you like very cold water and equate that to pleasure doesn't mean that everyone does the same. I don't enjoy cold water with ice in it but I do enjoy very cold beer. Does that mean I don't like comfort or pleasure? Seems to me that pleasure is linked to personal preferences and also follows cultural lines (regional, national, ethnic, etc). Funny story, somewhat similar to your ice-water tale. Went to Greece (Crete) on holiday and I couldn't get my hands on a fresh lemonade no matter what. Lemons were literally falling off trees on the side of the road but serving lemonade was just not part of the local culture. Their view was, why would I want to drink water mixed with lemon juice when I could have better things like fresh orange juice. Does this mean that Cretans don't like pleasure? No, it just means that they find pleasure in different things.
morelisp 4y ago
Garshin's life very nearly bookends the US Civil War, the deadliest war in American history fought over the right to literally own another person. In what real sense is America less extreme?
- bsenftner 4y ago
  The US civil war has no pro-slavery philosophers or intellectuals that have any respect, short of those that desire a return to such a barbaric society. While Eastern European philosophy and literature has a wealth of respect from many perspectives to this day.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    > no pro-slavery philosophers or intellectuals that have any respect Thomas Jefferson still seems to be quite popular to quote, even here on HN.
    - bsenftner 4y ago
      He's not pro slavery; in fact: Throughout his entire life, Thomas Jefferson was publicly a consistent opponent of slavery. Calling it a “moral depravity” and a “hideous blot,” he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation. Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty." https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/jefferson-s-attitudes-toward-slavery/ https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slaver...
      - AnonMessiah 4y ago
        >"...enslaved more than six-hundred people over the course of his life" Seems to me that if you do own 600 people over the course of your life you, at least implicitly, condone slavery.
        4y ago

csdvrx 4y ago

I also wonder why. It seems to be that Europe doesn't like comfort or pleasure. I like the simple pleasure of drinking very cold water, so I keep water bottles in my fridge, and add icecubes from my fridge ice dispenser. Even separately, these things were almost impossible to get when I travelled to Europe: most bars and restaurants said they didn't have ice. And the cold water was maybe less warm than the ambient air, but not really cold. I believe we in the US are more focus on pleasure - and I'd roll pragmatism into pleasure.

danny_codes 4y ago
> It seems to be that Europe doesn't like comfort or pleasure. Ah yes, Amsterdam, the city known for its seriousness and lack of fun.
- kergonath 4y ago
  Or Berlin. Or Rome, Paris, London, Barcelona… These famous cities where people hate enjoying themselves and never party ever. That said, I have to admit, I dislike ice-cold water.
bsenftner 4y ago
I'd say comfort and pleasure are not elevated with respect as they are in the 'States. Perhaps due to puritanical Christianity and the "Protestant ethic", comfort and pleasure tend to be viewed as luxuries and therefore desirable, therefore within the realm of corrupted desires, and therefore worthy of a form of reserved/frightened respect. I do not see the same value transference in conversations with Europeans.
low_tech_love 4y ago
They sure as *%#$ like comfort and they do enjoy pleasure, but it’s just a very different perspective to the American one. In Europe they see comfort in just fitting in with the standard things from the status quo; questioning too much and adding too many individual, custom things is seen negatively. In other words, ”we don’t need ice here, stop being such a snowflake.” In America having that individual touch is a more widespread thing, it has more value.
tstrimple 4y ago
Americans traded universal healthcare, free college education, maternity and paternity leave, vacation time, and the right to not be murdered by a cop “fearing for his life” for ice cold water. A very pragmatic trade it is said.
cntainer 4y ago
What a funny perspective, thanks for the laugh. I'm sure there isn't anyone in Europe who enjoys cold water, most of them lost their lives or got deported to the US during the last Tepid Water war /jk. The fact that you like very cold water and equate that to pleasure doesn't mean that everyone does the same. I don't enjoy cold water with ice in it but I do enjoy very cold beer. Does that mean I don't like comfort or pleasure? Seems to me that pleasure is linked to personal preferences and also follows cultural lines (regional, national, ethnic, etc). Funny story, somewhat similar to your ice-water tale. Went to Greece (Crete) on holiday and I couldn't get my hands on a fresh lemonade no matter what. Lemons were literally falling off trees on the side of the road but serving lemonade was just not part of the local culture. Their view was, why would I want to drink water mixed with lemon juice when I could have better things like fresh orange juice. Does this mean that Cretans don't like pleasure? No, it just means that they find pleasure in different things.

morelisp 4y ago

Garshin's life very nearly bookends the US Civil War, the deadliest war in American history fought over the right to literally own another person. In what real sense is America less extreme?

bsenftner 4y ago
The US civil war has no pro-slavery philosophers or intellectuals that have any respect, short of those that desire a return to such a barbaric society. While Eastern European philosophy and literature has a wealth of respect from many perspectives to this day.
- morelisp 4y ago
  > no pro-slavery philosophers or intellectuals that have any respect Thomas Jefferson still seems to be quite popular to quote, even here on HN.
  - bsenftner 4y ago
    He's not pro slavery; in fact: Throughout his entire life, Thomas Jefferson was publicly a consistent opponent of slavery. Calling it a “moral depravity” and a “hideous blot,” he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation. Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty." https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/jefferson-s-attitudes-toward-slavery/ https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slaver...
    - AnonMessiah 4y ago
      >"...enslaved more than six-hundred people over the course of his life" Seems to me that if you do own 600 people over the course of your life you, at least implicitly, condone slavery.
      - 4y ago