20 ms·

> It probably amounted to a real crime. I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea how criminal law in the USA works, but why would this be a crime? He didn't fake a Dep

by b3orn 4y ago

> It probably amounted to a real crime. I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea how criminal law in the USA works, but why would this be a crime? He didn't fake a Department of Defence ID, he created an ID for a fictional Department of Defiance, it may look similar, it may appear as a "real" ID because it's not just a piece of paper, but it's about as real an ID as a gym membership card.

lqet 4y ago
But you wouldn't board an international flight with your gym membership card.
- ztrww 4y ago
  I would if I could..
- rcstank 4y ago
  In 2023? No. In 198X? You didn’t even need an ID.
  - dghughes 4y ago
    I drove alone to the US from Canada for a trip in 1999 no passport (never had and still don't have one). The US Border Agents used my driver's license as proof of my ID. But they were convinced my goal was to go there to live. they tore my car apart, took everything out of luggage. They let me go but thought I was never coming back. All I was doing was going to a Thanksgiving dinner in Scranton.
    - lancepioch 4y ago
      I think it was about 2008-2009 that Canada started requiring US citizens to have their passport. Before that, they would take most US state ids.
    - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
      How do you know what they thought? And if they truly believed that why would they let you through?
      - dghughes 4y ago
        Because one border guard in particular specifically stated that he didn't believe me but there was nothing he could do to prevent me from entering the USA. But if it were up to him he would not let me enter and would send me back to Canada. He was a dick I remember him even 24 years later. The other guards were much more professional.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  I don't think gyms even do that anymore. It's mostly electronic tags/cards now
Shraal 4y ago
I'm also not a lawyer but AFAIK it often boils down to intent. You could argue that he tried to deceive someone with it.
- VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
  I don't even think it's arguable. He intended to deceive a Secret Service officer with fake federal government credentials, and apparently succeeded in doing so. I believe that is a felony. The judge may reduce the charge or throw it out later though because of the obvious wackiness of it.
  - zinekeller 4y ago
    Yeah, the ID itself might be judged confusing enough to be legally a counterfeit (which is a crime in itself) while the intentional intent to deceive lawful authorities adds another case to the table.
  - bushbaba 4y ago
    He’s Woz. A household name. I suspect the secret service agent also noticed it being a fake ID but didn’t want to deal with the litany of paperwork in arresting woz for the crime. Maybe the agent also got a chuckle out of it as well.
    - ShamelessC 4y ago
      Hate to break it to you, but if "Tim Apple" isn't a household name, Wozniak certainly isn't. Steve Jobs _maybe_ is, but even that is likely overestimating the public's knowledge.
- everforward 4y ago
  Not a lawyer either, but this doesn't appear to statutorily require intent. This is the relevant law[1]. I think the easiest way to prosecute this would be under the "authentication features" section: (1) the term “authentication feature” means any hologram, watermark, certification, symbol, code, image, sequence of numbers or letters, or other feature that either individually or in combination with another feature is used by the issuing authority on an identification document, document-making implement, or means of identification to determine if the document is counterfeit, altered, or otherwise falsified If he had replicated any of those things, he committed a crime just by making the ID. Using the ID likely has additional penalties, but just making it is a felony by itself. It seems likely he did, because I think missing seals and watermarks (if those existed at the time) would stand out as obvious to a secret service agent or the TSA. 1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028
sandworm101 4y ago
Giving a false ID to law enfordement? That is a crime. Giving a forged ID to the secret service, the people in charge of detecting counterfeiting? That's just idiocy. Misspelling department of defense doesnt make the ID ok any more than printing a tiny lol in the corner of your fake dollar bills. (Also, falsely claiming a relationship with the military is downright dishonerable.)
- ztrww 4y ago
  > false ID Showing a counterfeit driver’s license, passport etc. is obviously a crime. What he did was equivalent to showing your company issued ID. Would that be a crime?
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    It had a logo meant to fool a casual observer into reading "department of defense". Inserting a misprint doesn't make something ok if they decide you were intending to create a false impression in a hurried cop.
    - hanselot 4y ago
      Would a secret service officer be considered a casual observer?
- hueyluey 4y ago
  What do you mean by "dishonerable" here? Is this an instance of how Americans love the military so much that it's difficult to understand for people from other countries (where being a military isn't different from being a shop owner, or carpenter or doctor or whatever)?
  - coeneedell 4y ago
    No matter what country you’re in, the military is in a position of authority (except maybe Costa Rica). Generally people consider a lie to be worse if it’s a lie you can use to get power.
golemotron 4y ago
> I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea how criminal law in the USA works, but why would this be a crime? The US has streamlined this relative to other countries. You don't have to commit a crime, you just irritate a LEO and they find the crime for you.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  The US is hardly the country with the most law enforcement corruption. Indeed we are pretty low on the list.
retrac 4y ago
Not a lawyer either, but in Canada the core issue would be intent to decieve or mislead, as with fraud in general. It's not illegal to use a fake name or alias, nor print your own IDs (as long as you're not forging government IDs). But doing either to manipulate through deception, or mislead investigators, is a crime - fraud or public mischief. I believe it's broadly similar in the USA? Now, he may have lacked the intent to actually make it a crime, but I wouldn't want to have to argue that in front of a judge.
njharman 4y ago
It's a Felony to lie to federal agent. Who doesn't know that? Under 18 U.S.C. § 1001, it's a felony crime to: make a “false statement” to an agent of the > federal government related to a federal matter. ... A “false statement” can be: a material omission. a material misrepresentation, or. using a fraudulent document. Proffering a fake id when asked for a real id is clearly using a fraudulent document.
- etothepii 4y ago
  Is it a fake id in this sense if it had his real name on?
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    It wasn't issued by the entity claimed so yes.
    - 0134340 4y ago
      It wasn't issued by the Dept of Defiance? I'd say it defiantly was.
      - brookst 4y ago
        So if I go to a bar with an ID from Missisippi, that’s not fake ID because I just made that state up? Please do not try this kind of thing in real life.
- techdragon 4y ago
  Yes but it wasn “fake”… it was “entirely made up”. There’s a legitimate difference here that I’m sure lawyers would have a field day with. And I’d imagine the agent would have requested additional Id if they actually cared since it’s a simple enough thing to ask again if they took one look at it and weren’t satisfied.
  - brookst 4y ago
P_I_Staker 4y ago
Just lying to a federal agent is a pretty serious crime, I think. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume trying to pass a fake ID could be one, also.
frozenport 4y ago
Additionally impeding an investigation by wasting time is a crime.

by b3orn 4y ago

lqet 4y ago

But you wouldn't board an international flight with your gym membership card.

ztrww 4y ago
I would if I could..
rcstank 4y ago
In 2023? No. In 198X? You didn’t even need an ID.
- dghughes 4y ago
  I drove alone to the US from Canada for a trip in 1999 no passport (never had and still don't have one). The US Border Agents used my driver's license as proof of my ID. But they were convinced my goal was to go there to live. they tore my car apart, took everything out of luggage. They let me go but thought I was never coming back. All I was doing was going to a Thanksgiving dinner in Scranton.
  - lancepioch 4y ago
    I think it was about 2008-2009 that Canada started requiring US citizens to have their passport. Before that, they would take most US state ids.
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    How do you know what they thought? And if they truly believed that why would they let you through?
    - dghughes 4y ago
      Because one border guard in particular specifically stated that he didn't believe me but there was nothing he could do to prevent me from entering the USA. But if it were up to him he would not let me enter and would send me back to Canada. He was a dick I remember him even 24 years later. The other guards were much more professional.
raverbashing 4y ago
I don't think gyms even do that anymore. It's mostly electronic tags/cards now

Shraal 4y ago

I'm also not a lawyer but AFAIK it often boils down to intent. You could argue that he tried to deceive someone with it.

VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
I don't even think it's arguable. He intended to deceive a Secret Service officer with fake federal government credentials, and apparently succeeded in doing so. I believe that is a felony. The judge may reduce the charge or throw it out later though because of the obvious wackiness of it.
- zinekeller 4y ago
  Yeah, the ID itself might be judged confusing enough to be legally a counterfeit (which is a crime in itself) while the intentional intent to deceive lawful authorities adds another case to the table.
- bushbaba 4y ago
  He’s Woz. A household name. I suspect the secret service agent also noticed it being a fake ID but didn’t want to deal with the litany of paperwork in arresting woz for the crime. Maybe the agent also got a chuckle out of it as well.
  - ShamelessC 4y ago
    Hate to break it to you, but if "Tim Apple" isn't a household name, Wozniak certainly isn't. Steve Jobs _maybe_ is, but even that is likely overestimating the public's knowledge.
everforward 4y ago
Not a lawyer either, but this doesn't appear to statutorily require intent. This is the relevant law[1]. I think the easiest way to prosecute this would be under the "authentication features" section: (1) the term “authentication feature” means any hologram, watermark, certification, symbol, code, image, sequence of numbers or letters, or other feature that either individually or in combination with another feature is used by the issuing authority on an identification document, document-making implement, or means of identification to determine if the document is counterfeit, altered, or otherwise falsified If he had replicated any of those things, he committed a crime just by making the ID. Using the ID likely has additional penalties, but just making it is a felony by itself. It seems likely he did, because I think missing seals and watermarks (if those existed at the time) would stand out as obvious to a secret service agent or the TSA. 1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028

sandworm101 4y ago

Giving a false ID to law enfordement? That is a crime. Giving a forged ID to the secret service, the people in charge of detecting counterfeiting? That's just idiocy. Misspelling department of defense doesnt make the ID ok any more than printing a tiny lol in the corner of your fake dollar bills. (Also, falsely claiming a relationship with the military is downright dishonerable.)

ztrww 4y ago
> false ID Showing a counterfeit driver’s license, passport etc. is obviously a crime. What he did was equivalent to showing your company issued ID. Would that be a crime?
- sandworm101 4y ago
  It had a logo meant to fool a casual observer into reading "department of defense". Inserting a misprint doesn't make something ok if they decide you were intending to create a false impression in a hurried cop.
  - hanselot 4y ago
    Would a secret service officer be considered a casual observer?
hueyluey 4y ago
What do you mean by "dishonerable" here? Is this an instance of how Americans love the military so much that it's difficult to understand for people from other countries (where being a military isn't different from being a shop owner, or carpenter or doctor or whatever)?
- coeneedell 4y ago
  No matter what country you’re in, the military is in a position of authority (except maybe Costa Rica). Generally people consider a lie to be worse if it’s a lie you can use to get power.

golemotron 4y ago

> I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea how criminal law in the USA works, but why would this be a crime? The US has streamlined this relative to other countries. You don't have to commit a crime, you just irritate a LEO and they find the crime for you.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
The US is hardly the country with the most law enforcement corruption. Indeed we are pretty low on the list.

retrac 4y ago

Not a lawyer either, but in Canada the core issue would be intent to decieve or mislead, as with fraud in general. It's not illegal to use a fake name or alias, nor print your own IDs (as long as you're not forging government IDs). But doing either to manipulate through deception, or mislead investigators, is a crime - fraud or public mischief. I believe it's broadly similar in the USA? Now, he may have lacked the intent to actually make it a crime, but I wouldn't want to have to argue that in front of a judge.

njharman 4y ago

It's a Felony to lie to federal agent. Who doesn't know that? Under 18 U.S.C. § 1001, it's a felony crime to: make a “false statement” to an agent of the > federal government related to a federal matter. ... A “false statement” can be: a material omission. a material misrepresentation, or. using a fraudulent document. Proffering a fake id when asked for a real id is clearly using a fraudulent document.

etothepii 4y ago
Is it a fake id in this sense if it had his real name on?
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  It wasn't issued by the entity claimed so yes.
  - 0134340 4y ago
    It wasn't issued by the Dept of Defiance? I'd say it defiantly was.
    - brookst 4y ago
      So if I go to a bar with an ID from Missisippi, that’s not fake ID because I just made that state up? Please do not try this kind of thing in real life.
techdragon 4y ago
Yes but it wasn “fake”… it was “entirely made up”. There’s a legitimate difference here that I’m sure lawyers would have a field day with. And I’d imagine the agent would have requested additional Id if they actually cared since it’s a simple enough thing to ask again if they took one look at it and weren’t satisfied.
- brookst 4y ago

P_I_Staker 4y ago

Just lying to a federal agent is a pretty serious crime, I think. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume trying to pass a fake ID could be one, also.

frozenport 4y ago

Additionally impeding an investigation by wasting time is a crime.