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I blame the fetish that the UK has for Oxbridge graduates. The evidence shows they are not very good, perhaps even worse than the Russell Group average. We need

I blame the fetish that the UK has for Oxbridge graduates. The evidence shows they are not very good, perhaps even worse than the Russell Group average. We need to find better indicators of ability; this cannot go on.

samwillis 4y ago
Oxford and Cambridge are undeniably very good universities, I think "fetish" for their grads is going too far. I think it's that there is an expectation in some sectors that an Oxbridge grad is capable of working in wider areas than they are necessarily qualified. To much weight is place on the oxbridge "brand". The unfortunate thing is that we have been governed by a party which takes that unhealthy attitude towards senior party members, they have always been more about who you know than what you know. You don't see the same proportion of Oxbridge grads in the current opposition. Slightly anecdotal, my first job after graduating (from former polytechnic Loughborough) was in Cambridge for a company formed by a couple of Cambridge grads. There was a higher proportion of non Oxbridge grads at the company, I think we tended to have more practical experience.
- newsclues 4y ago
  Universities aren't just places of learning, but designed to select leaders through the state. How does it select leaders? By finding the most talented, or by finding those who are controllable? Seems like the institutions are dual use.
  - pharmakom 4y ago
    Oxbridge selects for upper / upper-middle class polish and above average - but probably not exceptional and definitely not neurodivergent - intelligence.
    - biofox 4y ago
      Having been to both institutions, I can assure you that the comp sci and STEM programmes are dominated by neurodivergent types. Those aren't the people going into politics though.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  The British political system isn't hiring Scientists, Engineers or MBA graduates out of Cambridge. It's also about Eton. Look at the last 3 that won elections: David Cameron - Eton, Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Oxford, went straight into politics. Theresa May studied Geography at Oxford, worked at Bank of England and a few other institutions for a while. Boris Johnson - Eton, study of the Classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy. Worked as a journalist, was fired for lying, then became a politician.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    Eton is more important. Children go to Eton. They dont chose to go. Their wealthy parents send them. Eton is where elite families form the bonds that are the backbone of the UK elite. Oxbridge is just the finishing school. How many politicians are hired or promoted by prime ministers not because of quality or background but social debts between families? Nobody really tracks those relationships.
    - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
      No, it isn't. People outside the UK have this fascination with Eton. And don't seem to realise that there are hundreds of other independent schools, grammar schools (which are often as good or better than many independent schools), and (if we are talking about history) grant-maintained schools. Eton isn't regarded as a particularly good school. It is relatively expensive, and preferred by people outside the UK. Their academic results aren't that strong. And social connections are an aspect of almost every political party. Blair hired almost everyone in Derry Irvine's chambers. Most of the SNP are not only friends, they are actually related to each other. The Tories are possibly the least incestuous because Cameron made a concerted effort to widen the reach of the party in the mid-2000s (this is why the current Cabinet is so diverse). The reason why there is a concentration of Oxbridge is because, when most of these people went to uni, they were far and away the best. In Scotland, you see the exact same thing with Edinburgh (and strangely, no-one talks about the fact that almost of Sturgeon's clique went to Glasgow...which is, generally, an inferior university). And what you are actually seeing now is that more and more politicians are going to other universities reflecting the fact that non-Oxbridge unis caught up in the 90/00s (and recently, they have dropped off far more...Imperial is ahead in sciences, Oxford PPE is still very good though).
- heilei 4y ago
  > Oxford and Cambridge are undeniably very good universities Looking at Instagram there are undeniably many physically fit Americans. In reality their physical fitness is notable because it is relatively rare. Elite universities are sustainable in an industrial society where scarcity of resources means there are only so many high positions. In a post-industrial society knowledge is the resource. Elite universities then instead mean you have a lack of resources.
  - defrost 4y ago
    > In a post-industrial society knowledge is the resource. Err, no. Don't get me wrong, the Oxbridge system accepts, fosters and matriculates some very bright, very smart people. But that is not at all what the core of the "Elite University" system is about, it's about connections and maintaining a single degree of freedom between the families that collectively hold > 90% of the wealth, resources, and influence within UK society.
    - lozenge 4y ago
      It makes more sense to call it the Eton system. Oxbridge is accessible for many smart young people, but in itself that does not invite you to the political elite. It's Eton and a couple of other schools. Pretty much any male politician whose official actions could be described as inhuman or sociopathic has been through boarding school trauma.
    - heilei 4y ago
      I think we are mostly on the same page. Elite universities are fine in an industrial society because you are more limited by physical resources. South Korea does relatively well being run by relatively few rich families. Because it only takes so many executive, managers or engineers to run factories refining natural resource. An elite university can produce the people necessary to fill those slots. In a post-industrial society, or beyond that, you aren't tied to physical resource in the same way. Instead you are limited by the amount of people with relevant knowledge. The existence of elite universities in such a society is really more saying that you can't produce enough people and opportunities. Arriving at a village finding there is only one person with a car you don't say "wow, this guy is successful" you say "ouch, this is a poor village" even if that is the most successful person in the village. Because these days we expect cars and if everyone had cars he wouldn't stand out as successful.
charlieyu1 4y ago
I blame the recruiters.
pricechild 4y ago
> We need to find ... Who is "We" here? I think it would be reasonable to claim the two main parties come from very similar backgrounds. Both seem to be happy continuing with maintaining their status quo. Without their consent, is it likely or possible to see a third option rise?
- pjc50 4y ago
  It's remarkable how the SNP have taken over and dominated Scottish politics by having exactly one radical policy and otherwise being a sort of Merkelist centre-right government. But that's undoubtedly linked to the use of AMS at the Scottish Parliament.
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    Merkel presided over economic growth. The Torry government saw the UK economy barely move.
traceroute66 4y ago
> I blame the fetish that the UK has for Oxbridge graduates. Yup. As the old joke goes ... How do you know someone went to Oxford ? Don't worry, they'll tell you.
pjc50 4y ago
The hiring is not being driven by ability, it's being driven by connections. Oxford PPE graduates are being hired .. by other Oxford PPE graduates. And then promoted in the newspapers by the same.
morbia 4y ago
Some anecdotal evidence ahead. I've been interviewing graduates in the UK for many years now from a very broad range of universities, all focused on CS or stem degrees. In my experience, I've yet to interview an oxbridge graduate who wasn't at least great academically, and this is speaking as someone who went to a lesser university. Clearly whatever standards they have for teaching and entry selection criteria really work. That said, graduates from other universities are easily on par with oxbridge, just that there were some total morons amongst their peers as well. In my opinion, the problem is not that the UK fetishes oxbridge candidates, the problem is politics is dominated by arts and ppe graduates which does not offer the problem solving skills stem degrees do. I genuinely think we'd be in a much better place if our leaders weren't trained just in communication, but instead on actually logically thinking through problems and resolving them.
- traceroute66 4y ago
  > I genuinely think we'd be in a much better place if our leaders weren't trained just in communication, but instead on actually logically thinking through problems and resolving them. The other half of the problem is that the archaic UK parliament needs to change, its not fit for the 21st century. For example ... MP's perks and expenses - why do MPs get HEAVILY subsidised food and drink ? why do they get such generous expenses ? why do they get Friday's off ? why do they get so many recess holidays ? why does the whole place shut down for party conference silly season ? Prime Minister's Questions - Its a disgrace. The clue is in the word "Questions". Instead it's a farcical theatrical display where someone asks a question and then the Prime Minister doesn't answer it and/or the Prime Minister's backbenches ensure the answer gets drowned out in noise. Planted Questons - All the planted questions from the Prime Minister's back benches. What's all that about ? Do they really think people are that stupid ? Too many "gentleman's agreements" - For example, what's with the whole "you can 'unknowingly' lie, but you can't accuse others of lying" thing ? Lack of independent scrutiny - Enquiries and investigations are all based on the "gentleman's agreement" that the Prime Minister can be trusted to be a "good man" and will therefore, of course, launch any necessary investigations into alleged acts of wrong doing. However as we saw with Johnson, well .... Ministerial Code - The ultimate joke. A code with no teeth. Again, Johnson demonstrated how circles could be run round it. Archaic "parliamentary protocol" - So many examples here, perhaps one of the most infamous is Christopher Chope MP shouting "object" and blocking progress of the Up-skirting bill. The perogueing of parliament by the Johnson government in relation to Brexit is another.

samwillis 4y ago

Oxford and Cambridge are undeniably very good universities, I think "fetish" for their grads is going too far. I think it's that there is an expectation in some sectors that an Oxbridge grad is capable of working in wider areas than they are necessarily qualified. To much weight is place on the oxbridge "brand". The unfortunate thing is that we have been governed by a party which takes that unhealthy attitude towards senior party members, they have always been more about who you know than what you know. You don't see the same proportion of Oxbridge grads in the current opposition. Slightly anecdotal, my first job after graduating (from former polytechnic Loughborough) was in Cambridge for a company formed by a couple of Cambridge grads. There was a higher proportion of non Oxbridge grads at the company, I think we tended to have more practical experience.

newsclues 4y ago
Universities aren't just places of learning, but designed to select leaders through the state. How does it select leaders? By finding the most talented, or by finding those who are controllable? Seems like the institutions are dual use.
- pharmakom 4y ago
  Oxbridge selects for upper / upper-middle class polish and above average - but probably not exceptional and definitely not neurodivergent - intelligence.
  - biofox 4y ago
    Having been to both institutions, I can assure you that the comp sci and STEM programmes are dominated by neurodivergent types. Those aren't the people going into politics though.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
The British political system isn't hiring Scientists, Engineers or MBA graduates out of Cambridge. It's also about Eton. Look at the last 3 that won elections: David Cameron - Eton, Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Oxford, went straight into politics. Theresa May studied Geography at Oxford, worked at Bank of England and a few other institutions for a while. Boris Johnson - Eton, study of the Classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy. Worked as a journalist, was fired for lying, then became a politician.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Eton is more important. Children go to Eton. They dont chose to go. Their wealthy parents send them. Eton is where elite families form the bonds that are the backbone of the UK elite. Oxbridge is just the finishing school. How many politicians are hired or promoted by prime ministers not because of quality or background but social debts between families? Nobody really tracks those relationships.
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    No, it isn't. People outside the UK have this fascination with Eton. And don't seem to realise that there are hundreds of other independent schools, grammar schools (which are often as good or better than many independent schools), and (if we are talking about history) grant-maintained schools. Eton isn't regarded as a particularly good school. It is relatively expensive, and preferred by people outside the UK. Their academic results aren't that strong. And social connections are an aspect of almost every political party. Blair hired almost everyone in Derry Irvine's chambers. Most of the SNP are not only friends, they are actually related to each other. The Tories are possibly the least incestuous because Cameron made a concerted effort to widen the reach of the party in the mid-2000s (this is why the current Cabinet is so diverse). The reason why there is a concentration of Oxbridge is because, when most of these people went to uni, they were far and away the best. In Scotland, you see the exact same thing with Edinburgh (and strangely, no-one talks about the fact that almost of Sturgeon's clique went to Glasgow...which is, generally, an inferior university). And what you are actually seeing now is that more and more politicians are going to other universities reflecting the fact that non-Oxbridge unis caught up in the 90/00s (and recently, they have dropped off far more...Imperial is ahead in sciences, Oxford PPE is still very good though).
heilei 4y ago
> Oxford and Cambridge are undeniably very good universities Looking at Instagram there are undeniably many physically fit Americans. In reality their physical fitness is notable because it is relatively rare. Elite universities are sustainable in an industrial society where scarcity of resources means there are only so many high positions. In a post-industrial society knowledge is the resource. Elite universities then instead mean you have a lack of resources.
- defrost 4y ago
  > In a post-industrial society knowledge is the resource. Err, no. Don't get me wrong, the Oxbridge system accepts, fosters and matriculates some very bright, very smart people. But that is not at all what the core of the "Elite University" system is about, it's about connections and maintaining a single degree of freedom between the families that collectively hold > 90% of the wealth, resources, and influence within UK society.
  - lozenge 4y ago
    It makes more sense to call it the Eton system. Oxbridge is accessible for many smart young people, but in itself that does not invite you to the political elite. It's Eton and a couple of other schools. Pretty much any male politician whose official actions could be described as inhuman or sociopathic has been through boarding school trauma.
  - heilei 4y ago
    I think we are mostly on the same page. Elite universities are fine in an industrial society because you are more limited by physical resources. South Korea does relatively well being run by relatively few rich families. Because it only takes so many executive, managers or engineers to run factories refining natural resource. An elite university can produce the people necessary to fill those slots. In a post-industrial society, or beyond that, you aren't tied to physical resource in the same way. Instead you are limited by the amount of people with relevant knowledge. The existence of elite universities in such a society is really more saying that you can't produce enough people and opportunities. Arriving at a village finding there is only one person with a car you don't say "wow, this guy is successful" you say "ouch, this is a poor village" even if that is the most successful person in the village. Because these days we expect cars and if everyone had cars he wouldn't stand out as successful.

charlieyu1 4y ago

I blame the recruiters.

pricechild 4y ago

> We need to find ... Who is "We" here? I think it would be reasonable to claim the two main parties come from very similar backgrounds. Both seem to be happy continuing with maintaining their status quo. Without their consent, is it likely or possible to see a third option rise?

pjc50 4y ago
It's remarkable how the SNP have taken over and dominated Scottish politics by having exactly one radical policy and otherwise being a sort of Merkelist centre-right government. But that's undoubtedly linked to the use of AMS at the Scottish Parliament.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  Merkel presided over economic growth. The Torry government saw the UK economy barely move.

traceroute66 4y ago

> I blame the fetish that the UK has for Oxbridge graduates. Yup. As the old joke goes ... How do you know someone went to Oxford ? Don't worry, they'll tell you.

pjc50 4y ago

The hiring is not being driven by ability, it's being driven by connections. Oxford PPE graduates are being hired .. by other Oxford PPE graduates. And then promoted in the newspapers by the same.

morbia 4y ago

Some anecdotal evidence ahead. I've been interviewing graduates in the UK for many years now from a very broad range of universities, all focused on CS or stem degrees. In my experience, I've yet to interview an oxbridge graduate who wasn't at least great academically, and this is speaking as someone who went to a lesser university. Clearly whatever standards they have for teaching and entry selection criteria really work. That said, graduates from other universities are easily on par with oxbridge, just that there were some total morons amongst their peers as well. In my opinion, the problem is not that the UK fetishes oxbridge candidates, the problem is politics is dominated by arts and ppe graduates which does not offer the problem solving skills stem degrees do. I genuinely think we'd be in a much better place if our leaders weren't trained just in communication, but instead on actually logically thinking through problems and resolving them.

traceroute66 4y ago
> I genuinely think we'd be in a much better place if our leaders weren't trained just in communication, but instead on actually logically thinking through problems and resolving them. The other half of the problem is that the archaic UK parliament needs to change, its not fit for the 21st century. For example ... MP's perks and expenses - why do MPs get HEAVILY subsidised food and drink ? why do they get such generous expenses ? why do they get Friday's off ? why do they get so many recess holidays ? why does the whole place shut down for party conference silly season ? Prime Minister's Questions - Its a disgrace. The clue is in the word "Questions". Instead it's a farcical theatrical display where someone asks a question and then the Prime Minister doesn't answer it and/or the Prime Minister's backbenches ensure the answer gets drowned out in noise. Planted Questons - All the planted questions from the Prime Minister's back benches. What's all that about ? Do they really think people are that stupid ? Too many "gentleman's agreements" - For example, what's with the whole "you can 'unknowingly' lie, but you can't accuse others of lying" thing ? Lack of independent scrutiny - Enquiries and investigations are all based on the "gentleman's agreement" that the Prime Minister can be trusted to be a "good man" and will therefore, of course, launch any necessary investigations into alleged acts of wrong doing. However as we saw with Johnson, well .... Ministerial Code - The ultimate joke. A code with no teeth. Again, Johnson demonstrated how circles could be run round it. Archaic "parliamentary protocol" - So many examples here, perhaps one of the most infamous is Christopher Chope MP shouting "object" and blocking progress of the Up-skirting bill. The perogueing of parliament by the Johnson government in relation to Brexit is another.