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Apple sued for promising privacy, failing at it
- sneak 4y agoApple is still doing this to date. Lots of connections to xp.apple.com even with analytics turned off.
- imoverclocked 4y agoWhat is the traffic to xp.Apple.com? How much of that traffic is sensitive information? What breaks when you block the domain? According to [1] the domain supports proxies so it might be somewhat trivial to answer rather than just blanketing with, “my data is being sent to Apple.” Let’s get really specific and figure out what is being sent despite settings that explicitly apply to those values. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-hk/HT210060 https://support.apple.com/en-hk/HT210060
- tick_tock_tick 4y ago> Let’s get really specific and figure out what is being sent despite settings that explicitly apply to those values. The opening of the connection itself leaks too much information so it's not even relevant what's being sent just that it was opened in the first place.
- Gigachad 4y agoIf you are concerned about any connection at all being made, you shouldn’t be using a consumer OS. You should install something like qubes OS and heavily lock down everything. It’s unreasonable to expect consumer products to function for highly specialised requirements that are counter to good experience for their intended markets.
- sneak 4y agoNot wanting your computer to spy on you is not a highly specialized requirement. Apple even uses privacy as a marketing differentiator.
- Gigachad 4y agoFetching a list of revoked certificates for example is not spying. If the simple request for this kind of data is a concern, you have very unusual requirements.
- boudin 4y agowhy the f*ck is there any netwrork traffic in the first place ?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Gigachad 4y agoPlenty of reasons. Fetching the updated list of malware domains is one, fetching the list of revoked certificates, checking for available updates. Checking the list of toggled feature flags, some features roll out in an OS update before being turned on. The addition of AirTags worked like this so it just worked day one when the product was available to buy. This is all stuff the average user wants and benefits from.
- _chu1 4y agoNo way to turn it off either. Nobody who sells me a product needs to tell me whats good for me
- Gigachad 4y ago>Nobody who sells me a product needs to tell me whats good for me That's exactly what buying a product is. You are letting the seller make the decisions for you, the alternative is building it yourself where you have the full freedom to do anything. Your job as a consumer is to decide what sellers you think are aligned with your needs or when to build yourself.
- pr0zac 4y agoGlad to see another informed consumer who buys eggs and only uses them for recipes provided by the grocery store! What I can’t figure out is why computers include input devices when you aren’t supposed to be making any decisions about how they’re used.
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- stuckkeys 4y agoYou can install proxyman on your device and observe for yourself how much apps and phone track info and talk back to their servers.
- amelius 4y ago> What's allowed for Cupertino is verboten for everyone else So they are not just failing at privacy, but actively infringing it? And they also broke Hanlon's razor.
- sigmonsays 4y agoLittle snitch ftw
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- imoverclocked 4y agoI wish the stories that appeared on HN about this kind of thing leaned toward the outcomes of the trial rather than the fact that a trial is starting. It feels like clickbait and fuel for conjecture otherwise.
- Dotnaught 4y agoIf news reports only covered trials, you'd rarely hear about disputes. Civil and criminal cases rarely reach trial. An estimated 2% of federal criminal defendants get tried [https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/11/only-2-of-federal-criminal-defendants-go-to-trial-and-most-who-do-are-found-guilty/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/11/only-2-of-f...] The figure appear to be similar for civil cases [https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/going-going-but-not-quite-gone-trials-continue-to-decline-in-federal-and-state-courts-does-it-matter/#easy-footnote-23-2373 https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/going-going-but-not-qui...]
- thfuran 4y agoI think you're missing the point. Whether or not it proceeds to trial, a suit has an outcome.
- whynotkeithberg 4y agoIt has an outcome AFTER its over. his point was... if you didn't report on it till the outcome you'd never hear about it. They're reporting on the allegations and that's a normal part of reporting. you can't only report on the trial outcomes or else it would never be talked about ahead of time. You can't wait until the outcome is decided to report on something because then you wouldn't report on it until the trial was over and no one would hear about it for years.
- nitwit005 4y agoThis is a general problem with the news. The resolution of events is less likely to get coverage. People take advantage of this all the time by just stalling investigations or trials to avoid press coverage. The press forgets about it.
- tick_tock_tick 4y agoGood I hope they get racked over for this nearly every one of there "privacy" features has a massive, often undisclosed, caveat or is sidestepped by there own software.
- bilbo0s 4y agoWe have to be a bit careful here. I can hear it now: "We're not being anti-competitive. Our users, and US courts are demanding we lock down our users' privacy. We have no choice but to comply. Maybe Google and Facebook can work out some other way to make money?" "Oh, yeah, I guess you're right? They are pretty big competitors. Pity that. Oh well, what's to be done? We're all obligated to operate within the confines of the current legal environment after all.'
- polyomino 4y agoApple's competitors are capable of competing with them, so long as Apple doesn't preference itself unfairly
- dev_tty01 4y agoApple entered the smartphone market in 2007. At that time Apple had no way to preference itself unfairly. They went from zero to capturing 75% of smartphone profits in 2021 and dramatically increased the size of the overall market. I think Apple is quite capable of competing without preference. Are they more successful now due to eco-system lock-in? Sure, but to conclude that that is the only reason they have are competitive is just not considering all of the facts. [0] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-handset-market-operating-profit-q2-2021/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-handset-market-o...
- Nevermark 4y agoApple lock-in may not be the only reason Apple remains so wildly successful. But, Apple lock-in, and other self-serving restrictions, may be the reason we don’t hear about many potential products that never make it. Anti-competitiveness protects margins in the long term by avoiding pesky upstarts and challengers that might change the playing field. (Not critiquing any privacy issue with this comment. Just competitive issues from Apples view, and the view of all the non-Apples, in the abstract and the real.)
- nostromo 4y ago> The researchers claim Apple engages in invasive data practices similar to those it forbids among third-parties Is Facebook funding this lawsuit? I’m all for extending privacy, but there’s a difference between a company I’m a customer of using my data to provide me with services and every random third-party app or website selling my data to who knows who for a buck.
- JaceLightning 4y agoApple was caught recording analytical data about how you use your phone with a static identifier. Basically what Google analytics and Facebook analytics do
- judge2020 4y agoThe difference with the case you're referencing (here's the link[0], since you didn't include it yourself) is that analytics data inside apps like the App Store is different from the prompt about system-level data collection. If you decline the data collection during setup, other apps might still collect it, since that data collection is defined on your account in App Store -> Account Settings -> Personalized Recommendations. Given you can set up the phone without an Apple ID, declining OS-level analytics doesn't automatically disable the tracking for your Apple ID once you sign in. 0: https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/19/class-action-privacy-lawsuit/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/19/class-action-privacy-lawsuit/
- muro 4y agoSounds a bit similar to what Google got in trouble for on Android - saying disabling OS level tracking does not mean web apps (IIRC) can not track either. Aka, saying search history is different enough that the control does not affect it
- slowmovintarget 4y agoFirst few lines of the article: "I said don't share, but you still wrote it down." Wouldn't she have to prove they sold her information, not just captured it? I suppose the expectation is an unfortunate personification of the device. "Keep the secret, device." The trouble is, "the device" is Apple.
- _23sd 4y agoFrom my comment in a previous thread on the same topic [1]: "This is about a request used to report a click in the app store, which is technically specified in the privacy policy [2] and you can get a CSV of it from Apple in data requests." The previous thread was more about whether these logs should exist at all, but as far as the lawsuit goes I (not a lawyer) expect it will go nowhere. I'm kind of sympathetic to the idea that companies shouldn't get to advertise their "commitment to privacy" while having terrible privacy practices, but the legal standard for deceptive advertising seems to be higher and that's probably for good reason. Specific regulation of how online privacy tools can be marketed would be another, more interesting conversation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33695937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33695937 [2] https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/, "We use information about your browsing, purchases, searches, and downloads. These records are stored with IP address, a random unique identifier (where that arises), and Apple ID"
- huslage 4y agoApple has never said that using their App Store doesn’t cause data collection from the user. It’s part of the ToS and they tell you they will do it when you sign up. They have said they don’t sell it, which is a whole different type of complaint. This is a frivolous lawsuit with no teeth in US law.
- grapesurgeon 4y ago[dead]
- kornhole 4y agoThese privacy settings are like the steering wheel on a kid's stroller.
- m463 4y agoGoogle's privacy settings are almost literally just that -- with the cheerful bright colors.