6 ms·

Cognitive reasoning has nothing to do with addiction. Addicts invent the most convoluted complex reasoning to not quit that are also contrary to facts they are

Cognitive reasoning has nothing to do with addiction. Addicts invent the most convoluted complex reasoning to not quit that are also contrary to facts they are keenly aware of. Mental gymnastics.

bee_rider 4y ago
You have to smoke the first couple cigarettes to get addicted, though…
- ineedasername 4y ago
  Socioeconomic factors and other random circumstances are going to impact exposure & normalization of the behavior. Thought experiment: Take 1000 13 year olds of equal cognitive capacity and place half in peer groups where some smoke half in peer groups where none smoke. I’m guessing there would end up being more of the first 500 that decide to take up the habit. There is also a difference between cognitive function and reasoning capacity, the later also strongly influenced by socioeconomic factors.
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    Yes, but that doesn’t contradict anything that was said.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
corobo 4y ago
Can confirm anecdotally on this one. I had accepted the logical reasons to quit a good year or so before I actually got rid of them. When I did manage to kick them it was after I read the Easy way to quit smoking by Allen Carr which helped with the mindset then admittedly I ruined the data by moving house and starting a work from home job, therefore got rid of all of my cigarette initiating habits in one go.
- nohuck13 4y ago
  Are your sure your anecdote confirms this? The higher cognitive function that leads you to read books about quitting could be exactly the mechanism the GP describes. If books can help you quit, less bookish people will quit less, all else equal.
  - williamcotton 4y ago
    From what I remember, Easy Way even tells you to keep smoking when you start the book and to stop reading if you don’t feel ready! FWIW, I also credit that book with me finally quitting the habit.
    - corobo 4y ago
      It does yeah, I think that was what made my mind open up to the book early on. An intriguing enough nonfiction twist, I had to see where it was going with this. I was expecting a mix of "here's why it's bad" and "here's the good stuff, and at which milestone dates you'll notice them" maybe. The stuff I already knew and believed in really strongly.. for 20 minutes until the third 'last' cigarette of the month. If anyone else is stuck in a holding pattern of quitting it's worth giving it a shot. Promise no affiliation haha, go see if your local bookshop or charity shop has a used copy for 20p (the pages will be a deep yellow, of course)
    - skhm 4y ago
      I read a different Easy Way book of Carr’s (I understand they are all similar) but felt like by the end I’d been scammed or something - he repeatedly tells you the Way works, and trust the process, and then the book … finishes? Is it really just that the Easy Way is a self-referential thing and the Way is itself to think about the Way a lot and in doing so convince yourself or your subconscious that you’ve reached some sort of solution despite having not? Or was there some set of concrete messages I might just have missed? Is the act of reading the book the thing itself?
      - williamcotton 4y ago
darkerside 4y ago
Former smoker, and I agree with this. More likely, people who smoke do function better cognitively with a cigarette in their hand. They are nervous and irritable without it. Their brains probably produce insufficient dopamine when they aren't smoking.
- themitigating 4y ago
  People who are addicted to cocaine perform better at their jobs if provided with it versus those who are in withdrawal
- Maursault 4y ago
  Nicotine has a positive effect on memory. But lower blood oxygen levels and 300+ intentionally added carcinogens to make smoking more addictive probably has considerable adverse effect. People that hate smokers refuse to accept that there is a massive difference between tobacco and what is in cigarettes.
  - idonotknowwhy 4y ago
    I've never smoked, but recently in my 30s started using nicotine gum 3-5 times per week. It's amazing for improving focus, I get a lot more work done, remember things very well and am more patient with people. Doesn't seem addictive in this form either, I can go a week without it and no withdrawal. Also no negative impact on sleep (unlike caffeine)
    - tomcam 4y ago
      Does it taste bad?
- corobo 4y ago
  N=+1 for you on that one. I quit smoking about 5 years before I was diagnosed with primarily-inattentive ADHD. Diagnosed with insufficient dopamine (uptake?), haha There was a lot of burnout between the two, incidentally. At one point I'd decided to cut down on the caffeine too, it's almost like I was trying to burn out in hindsight :)
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
Indeed. This is a matter of virtue. Being more "adept" can lead to more elaborate rationalizations and evasions of the truth to justify substance abuse or even deny that any abuse is happening.
bluecalm 4y ago
It's not like inventing most convoluted, complex reasoning to delude yourself on a simple matter is a sign of high cognitive capabilities. Quite the contrary. An intelligent addict will say: I realize it's terrible but I am losing the battle against the urges every day. Anything more than that smells like low cognitive ability to me.
rcme 4y ago
> Cognitive reasoning has nothing to do with addiction. Citation needed. As the GP pointed out, we have a correlation between addiction and lower cognitive function based on this study.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  No, there's no citation needed because there are plenty of genius addicts and this study alone proves nothing. At the absolute bare minimum this would have to replicate.
  - Idk__Throwaway 4y ago
    A genius addict disproves the broader claim no more than does "it was cold today, therefore global warming is a hoax". The rule can be true yet still have notable exceptions throughout history.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      No, you're just intentionally ignoring the word "plenty."
      - Idk__Throwaway 4y ago
        There are "plenty" of cold days as well. Does that disprove global warming? Not only is "plenty" not an objective quantity, but even an objectively large quantity is irrelevant if it's not a large percentage of the whole. 100k geniuses with addiction problems wouldn't disprove the rule if there are 1b people with addiction problems who are of below average intelligence.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        As he should. Plenty is extremely vague. It definitely means more than 1, probably more than 3, but after that.
      - 8note 4y ago
        It's actually "genius" that's the problem. There aren't enough geniuses to affect a trend on their own. You could swap "plenty" to "every" and it would still have the same problem
mistermann 4y ago
Rare is the person who doesn't engage in mental gymnastics, like post-hoc rationalization of sub-perceptual heuristic predictions of what is true, sometimes accompanied by proactive debunking of alternative perspectives.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sneak 4y ago
This is called fundamental attribution error. People do not have some hidden addict/not-addict bit. Smart people become addicted to things at a lower rate than not-smart people, and smart people become un-addicted to things at a higher rate than not-smart people.

Cognitive reasoning has nothing to do with addiction. Addicts invent the most convoluted complex reasoning to not quit that are also contrary to facts they are keenly aware of. Mental gymnastics.

bee_rider 4y ago

You have to smoke the first couple cigarettes to get addicted, though…

ineedasername 4y ago
Socioeconomic factors and other random circumstances are going to impact exposure & normalization of the behavior. Thought experiment: Take 1000 13 year olds of equal cognitive capacity and place half in peer groups where some smoke half in peer groups where none smoke. I’m guessing there would end up being more of the first 500 that decide to take up the habit. There is also a difference between cognitive function and reasoning capacity, the later also strongly influenced by socioeconomic factors.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  Yes, but that doesn’t contradict anything that was said.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

corobo 4y ago

Can confirm anecdotally on this one. I had accepted the logical reasons to quit a good year or so before I actually got rid of them. When I did manage to kick them it was after I read the Easy way to quit smoking by Allen Carr which helped with the mindset then admittedly I ruined the data by moving house and starting a work from home job, therefore got rid of all of my cigarette initiating habits in one go.

nohuck13 4y ago
Are your sure your anecdote confirms this? The higher cognitive function that leads you to read books about quitting could be exactly the mechanism the GP describes. If books can help you quit, less bookish people will quit less, all else equal.
- williamcotton 4y ago
  From what I remember, Easy Way even tells you to keep smoking when you start the book and to stop reading if you don’t feel ready! FWIW, I also credit that book with me finally quitting the habit.
  - corobo 4y ago
    It does yeah, I think that was what made my mind open up to the book early on. An intriguing enough nonfiction twist, I had to see where it was going with this. I was expecting a mix of "here's why it's bad" and "here's the good stuff, and at which milestone dates you'll notice them" maybe. The stuff I already knew and believed in really strongly.. for 20 minutes until the third 'last' cigarette of the month. If anyone else is stuck in a holding pattern of quitting it's worth giving it a shot. Promise no affiliation haha, go see if your local bookshop or charity shop has a used copy for 20p (the pages will be a deep yellow, of course)
  - skhm 4y ago
    I read a different Easy Way book of Carr’s (I understand they are all similar) but felt like by the end I’d been scammed or something - he repeatedly tells you the Way works, and trust the process, and then the book … finishes? Is it really just that the Easy Way is a self-referential thing and the Way is itself to think about the Way a lot and in doing so convince yourself or your subconscious that you’ve reached some sort of solution despite having not? Or was there some set of concrete messages I might just have missed? Is the act of reading the book the thing itself?
    - williamcotton 4y ago

darkerside 4y ago

Former smoker, and I agree with this. More likely, people who smoke do function better cognitively with a cigarette in their hand. They are nervous and irritable without it. Their brains probably produce insufficient dopamine when they aren't smoking.

themitigating 4y ago
People who are addicted to cocaine perform better at their jobs if provided with it versus those who are in withdrawal
Maursault 4y ago
Nicotine has a positive effect on memory. But lower blood oxygen levels and 300+ intentionally added carcinogens to make smoking more addictive probably has considerable adverse effect. People that hate smokers refuse to accept that there is a massive difference between tobacco and what is in cigarettes.
- idonotknowwhy 4y ago
  I've never smoked, but recently in my 30s started using nicotine gum 3-5 times per week. It's amazing for improving focus, I get a lot more work done, remember things very well and am more patient with people. Doesn't seem addictive in this form either, I can go a week without it and no withdrawal. Also no negative impact on sleep (unlike caffeine)
  - tomcam 4y ago
    Does it taste bad?
corobo 4y ago
N=+1 for you on that one. I quit smoking about 5 years before I was diagnosed with primarily-inattentive ADHD. Diagnosed with insufficient dopamine (uptake?), haha There was a lot of burnout between the two, incidentally. At one point I'd decided to cut down on the caffeine too, it's almost like I was trying to burn out in hindsight :)

lo_zamoyski 4y ago

Indeed. This is a matter of virtue. Being more "adept" can lead to more elaborate rationalizations and evasions of the truth to justify substance abuse or even deny that any abuse is happening.

bluecalm 4y ago

It's not like inventing most convoluted, complex reasoning to delude yourself on a simple matter is a sign of high cognitive capabilities. Quite the contrary. An intelligent addict will say: I realize it's terrible but I am losing the battle against the urges every day. Anything more than that smells like low cognitive ability to me.

rcme 4y ago

> Cognitive reasoning has nothing to do with addiction. Citation needed. As the GP pointed out, we have a correlation between addiction and lower cognitive function based on this study.

guerrilla 4y ago
No, there's no citation needed because there are plenty of genius addicts and this study alone proves nothing. At the absolute bare minimum this would have to replicate.
- Idk__Throwaway 4y ago
  A genius addict disproves the broader claim no more than does "it was cold today, therefore global warming is a hoax". The rule can be true yet still have notable exceptions throughout history.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    No, you're just intentionally ignoring the word "plenty."
    - Idk__Throwaway 4y ago
      There are "plenty" of cold days as well. Does that disprove global warming? Not only is "plenty" not an objective quantity, but even an objectively large quantity is irrelevant if it's not a large percentage of the whole. 100k geniuses with addiction problems wouldn't disprove the rule if there are 1b people with addiction problems who are of below average intelligence.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      As he should. Plenty is extremely vague. It definitely means more than 1, probably more than 3, but after that.
    - 8note 4y ago
      It's actually "genius" that's the problem. There aren't enough geniuses to affect a trend on their own. You could swap "plenty" to "every" and it would still have the same problem

mistermann 4y ago

Rare is the person who doesn't engage in mental gymnastics, like post-hoc rationalization of sub-perceptual heuristic predictions of what is true, sometimes accompanied by proactive debunking of alternative perspectives.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

sneak 4y ago

This is called fundamental attribution error. People do not have some hidden addict/not-addict bit. Smart people become addicted to things at a lower rate than not-smart people, and smart people become un-addicted to things at a higher rate than not-smart people.