7 ms·

US police use digital data to prosecute abortions

19 points by arkadiyt 4y ago

josephcsible 4y ago
If you're upset by this, would you also be upset by them using the same digital data to prosecute murders of adults?
- sverona 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    Every non-plant has a parasitic relationship to other organisms.
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - partiallypro 4y ago
    I am pro-choice but your language is not helpful. I don't even know why/how people can say this. Abortion is often an incredibly difficult decision, it's not a game or some sort of joke. People aren't losing a parasite when they have a miscarriage, have a stillborn, or lose a baby during birth for other reasons.
- justahuman74 4y ago
  Why are adult humans relevant, we're talking about not-quite-humans-yet
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  adults are citzens and pay taxes
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    What about illegal immigrants who get paid cash under the table? They're not citizens and don't pay taxes.
    - justahuman74 4y ago
      Everyone pays sales tax though
- krapp 4y ago
  No, because murder is murder, but abortion is not.
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    Thus, it's about abortion and not police using digital records
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I think it’s rude to ask rhetorical questions like this. Regardless of whether you agree, you definitely know that plenty of people don’t consider abortion murder (or anything close to murder).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    Let's see: - There is an organism that is alive. - The organism belongs to the human species (as per DNA). - The organism is separate from the parents (different DNA). - It's an intervention that results in loss of life. - It's premeditated (regardless of justification). Those are all irrefutable facts. The gestation phase doesn't change the facts above. What do we call a premeditated intervention that results in the loss of life by forced means of an alive member of the human species? Use any word you want. These semantics will remain the same regardless of which word you use. (edit) I also do not care about what specific word you use, I care about the implications above.
    - lupire 4y ago
      You don't appear to know what a womb is.
      - 29athrowaway 4y ago
        1) Take a DNA sample from a human in gestation, regardless of gestation phase. Compare it with the parents DNA. The DNA will belong to the human species, and will be different to that of the parents. 2) Measure the vital signs of the organism. You will confirm that it is alive. 3) Try the same with other mammals. Please go ahead and try to falsify this. Have fun.
        timbit42 4y ago
        I get a kick out of Evangelicals trying to determine when life begins. The entire process is life. If any part of procreation wasn't life, then it would fail. For an atheist, it's all life so ending the process at any point is technically death. Every sperm is sacred, so to speak. For a Jew or Christian though, the Bible doesn't consider the unborn to be human until they are birthed. Instead they are considered potentially human. Since it is not human, killing it isn't considered murder. Evangelicals wrongly believe their Bible considers the unborn to be human, thus their anti-abortion stance. If you look back to the 1960's, Evangelicals were not anti-abortion. That changed in the 1970's and here we are today.
- saenns 4y ago
  would you download a car?
  - saenns 4y ago
    but yes, i would rather they not use the data to prosecute murder
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jupp0r 4y ago
  Would you be upset to get charged with a crime for getting appendix surgery?
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    This proves his point though. It's not about police using digital records. It's about abortion.
- xiphias2 4y ago
  I'm much more upset that this has to happen for Facebook to finally get to E2E encryption. It shouldn't be a political decision. The police has to try everything legally possible to investigate a crime. The only new thing here is that right now the law is on the more conservative side.
password11 4y ago
> Police had made the discovery after obtaining a warrant that required Meta to hand over their conversations on Facebook Messenger. The messages, which were not encrypted, showed the two had discussed obtaining and using abortion pills. I read the headline thinking they were using digital medical data, i.e., what insurance companies do. That would be legitimately frightening. Nope, police are just exploiting bad opsec. Don't bring your phone to your robbery, don't talk about your alleged crimes on Facebook Messenger. Lots of people don't know that these channels are not secure. (Edit: Abortion is currently illegal in some U.S. jurisdictions. There is debate about whether it should or shouldn't be.)
- jupp0r 4y ago
  You shouldn't have to do opsec to get medical care.
  - syzarian 4y ago
    In the U.S. people often times are viewed as getting what they deserve for decisions made during periods of non-hyper vigilance. In our quest for an Ayn Randian paradise we believe it is a person’s fault if they aren’t hyper vigilant at all times.
    - password11 4y ago
      I don't think it's what they deserved. There are many things that are illegal but probably shouldn't be: weed for example. What I'm saying is, the article was actually about the fact that police are exploiting known insecure channels, not new ones. But the article title was suggesting the police were using new channels to surveil people. And I'm just surprised that many people don't know that phone calls, SMS, Google Searches, and Facebook Messenger can be obtained via subpoena.
      - syzarian 4y ago
        I wasn’t referring to you. I know that it probably looked like it. I was trying to explain to jupp0r how some Americans view punishment in the U.S. As a whole this country is quite vengeful and we sometimes take personal responsibility to an unrealistic extreme. I should have clarified that I did not think you were engaging in type of rationalization.
pstuart 4y ago
Courtesy of the same people who cry out for small government. Disgusting.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Something can be smaller overall without being smaller in every regard.
  - pstuart 4y ago
    Seriously, it's not your business. Once the child is born, then it becomes a member of society and is a social concern. Until then, it's a personal medical issue and sanctimonious citizens have no right to impose their inconsistent religious beliefs upon others. It's bad policy in bad faith.
nonethewiser 4y ago
She aborted a 23 week old. They found the remains in a trash bag in their backyard. I am happy the police investigated this. Can we step back from the knee jerk partisanship for one second and consider that this is not OK. https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/06/jennie-linn-mccormack-case-court-strikes-down-idahos-abortion-laws.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/06/jennie-linn-mccorma...
- defrost 4y ago
  Between 19 and 23 weeks old according to the article. ie. Perfectly legal in Australia and well within the range that Saint Hildegard of Bingen prepared and administered abortifacients [1]. [1] https://daily.jstor.org/abortion-remedies-medieval-catholic-nun/ https://daily.jstor.org/abortion-remedies-medieval-catholic-...
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    From the article you cited: > an infant which is a danger to her body > The loss of the fetus was seen as an acceptable price to pay for saving the life of the pregnant woman. Was Jennie Linn McCormack's life in danger? Or did she just not want another kid?
    - defrost 4y ago
      The article I cited doesn't say.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- josephcsible 4y ago
  https://healthier.stanfordchildrens.org/en/premature-babies-survival-rate-is-climbing/ https://healthier.stanfordchildrens.org/en/premature-babies-... > among those born at 23 weeks, 55% survived.
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
johnea 4y ago
There's really no such thing as "US police", unless you're talking about the FBI or another bureau of the federal department of justice. The first sentence of the article says "police in Nebraska", then goes on to say "police in Idaho", "police in Arkansas", "Mississippi"... It's worth pointing out that these states barely have the population of a good sized California county. A much more accurate title to the article would be "Police in ignorant redneck hayseed states use digital data..." Also stated: "13 states now ban abortion". Again a more accurate statement "the 13 most low IQ states in the US have banned abortion". Why anyone with the means to move still lives in those places is the real mystery. Seriously, If you feel these rights restrictions will affect you, move to California. If you are in a low income bracket, you get free health insurance in California, including abortion...

19 points by arkadiyt 4y ago

josephcsible 4y ago

If you're upset by this, would you also be upset by them using the same digital data to prosecute murders of adults?

sverona 4y ago
[flagged]
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  Every non-plant has a parasitic relationship to other organisms.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  [flagged]
- partiallypro 4y ago
  I am pro-choice but your language is not helpful. I don't even know why/how people can say this. Abortion is often an incredibly difficult decision, it's not a game or some sort of joke. People aren't losing a parasite when they have a miscarriage, have a stillborn, or lose a baby during birth for other reasons.
justahuman74 4y ago
Why are adult humans relevant, we're talking about not-quite-humans-yet
bobkazamakis 4y ago
adults are citzens and pay taxes
- josephcsible 4y ago
  What about illegal immigrants who get paid cash under the table? They're not citizens and don't pay taxes.
  - justahuman74 4y ago
    Everyone pays sales tax though
krapp 4y ago
No, because murder is murder, but abortion is not.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Thus, it's about abortion and not police using digital records
woodruffw 4y ago
I think it’s rude to ask rhetorical questions like this. Regardless of whether you agree, you definitely know that plenty of people don’t consider abortion murder (or anything close to murder).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  Let's see: - There is an organism that is alive. - The organism belongs to the human species (as per DNA). - The organism is separate from the parents (different DNA). - It's an intervention that results in loss of life. - It's premeditated (regardless of justification). Those are all irrefutable facts. The gestation phase doesn't change the facts above. What do we call a premeditated intervention that results in the loss of life by forced means of an alive member of the human species? Use any word you want. These semantics will remain the same regardless of which word you use. (edit) I also do not care about what specific word you use, I care about the implications above.
  - lupire 4y ago
    You don't appear to know what a womb is.
    - 29athrowaway 4y ago
      1) Take a DNA sample from a human in gestation, regardless of gestation phase. Compare it with the parents DNA. The DNA will belong to the human species, and will be different to that of the parents. 2) Measure the vital signs of the organism. You will confirm that it is alive. 3) Try the same with other mammals. Please go ahead and try to falsify this. Have fun.
      - timbit42 4y ago
        I get a kick out of Evangelicals trying to determine when life begins. The entire process is life. If any part of procreation wasn't life, then it would fail. For an atheist, it's all life so ending the process at any point is technically death. Every sperm is sacred, so to speak. For a Jew or Christian though, the Bible doesn't consider the unborn to be human until they are birthed. Instead they are considered potentially human. Since it is not human, killing it isn't considered murder. Evangelicals wrongly believe their Bible considers the unborn to be human, thus their anti-abortion stance. If you look back to the 1960's, Evangelicals were not anti-abortion. That changed in the 1970's and here we are today.
saenns 4y ago
would you download a car?
- saenns 4y ago
  but yes, i would rather they not use the data to prosecute murder
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jupp0r 4y ago
Would you be upset to get charged with a crime for getting appendix surgery?
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  This proves his point though. It's not about police using digital records. It's about abortion.
xiphias2 4y ago
I'm much more upset that this has to happen for Facebook to finally get to E2E encryption. It shouldn't be a political decision. The police has to try everything legally possible to investigate a crime. The only new thing here is that right now the law is on the more conservative side.

password11 4y ago

> Police had made the discovery after obtaining a warrant that required Meta to hand over their conversations on Facebook Messenger. The messages, which were not encrypted, showed the two had discussed obtaining and using abortion pills. I read the headline thinking they were using digital medical data, i.e., what insurance companies do. That would be legitimately frightening. Nope, police are just exploiting bad opsec. Don't bring your phone to your robbery, don't talk about your alleged crimes on Facebook Messenger. Lots of people don't know that these channels are not secure. (Edit: Abortion is currently illegal in some U.S. jurisdictions. There is debate about whether it should or shouldn't be.)

jupp0r 4y ago
You shouldn't have to do opsec to get medical care.
- syzarian 4y ago
  In the U.S. people often times are viewed as getting what they deserve for decisions made during periods of non-hyper vigilance. In our quest for an Ayn Randian paradise we believe it is a person’s fault if they aren’t hyper vigilant at all times.
  - password11 4y ago
    I don't think it's what they deserved. There are many things that are illegal but probably shouldn't be: weed for example. What I'm saying is, the article was actually about the fact that police are exploiting known insecure channels, not new ones. But the article title was suggesting the police were using new channels to surveil people. And I'm just surprised that many people don't know that phone calls, SMS, Google Searches, and Facebook Messenger can be obtained via subpoena.
    - syzarian 4y ago
      I wasn’t referring to you. I know that it probably looked like it. I was trying to explain to jupp0r how some Americans view punishment in the U.S. As a whole this country is quite vengeful and we sometimes take personal responsibility to an unrealistic extreme. I should have clarified that I did not think you were engaging in type of rationalization.

pstuart 4y ago

Courtesy of the same people who cry out for small government. Disgusting.

nonethewiser 4y ago
Something can be smaller overall without being smaller in every regard.
- pstuart 4y ago
  Seriously, it's not your business. Once the child is born, then it becomes a member of society and is a social concern. Until then, it's a personal medical issue and sanctimonious citizens have no right to impose their inconsistent religious beliefs upon others. It's bad policy in bad faith.

nonethewiser 4y ago

She aborted a 23 week old. They found the remains in a trash bag in their backyard. I am happy the police investigated this. Can we step back from the knee jerk partisanship for one second and consider that this is not OK. https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/06/jennie-linn-mccormack-case-court-strikes-down-idahos-abortion-laws.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/06/jennie-linn-mccorma...

defrost 4y ago
Between 19 and 23 weeks old according to the article. ie. Perfectly legal in Australia and well within the range that Saint Hildegard of Bingen prepared and administered abortifacients [1]. [1] https://daily.jstor.org/abortion-remedies-medieval-catholic-nun/ https://daily.jstor.org/abortion-remedies-medieval-catholic-...
- josephcsible 4y ago
  From the article you cited: > an infant which is a danger to her body > The loss of the fetus was seen as an acceptable price to pay for saving the life of the pregnant woman. Was Jennie Linn McCormack's life in danger? Or did she just not want another kid?
  - defrost 4y ago
    The article I cited doesn't say.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
josephcsible 4y ago
https://healthier.stanfordchildrens.org/en/premature-babies-survival-rate-is-climbing/ https://healthier.stanfordchildrens.org/en/premature-babies-... > among those born at 23 weeks, 55% survived.
- nonethewiser 4y ago

johnea 4y ago

There's really no such thing as "US police", unless you're talking about the FBI or another bureau of the federal department of justice. The first sentence of the article says "police in Nebraska", then goes on to say "police in Idaho", "police in Arkansas", "Mississippi"... It's worth pointing out that these states barely have the population of a good sized California county. A much more accurate title to the article would be "Police in ignorant redneck hayseed states use digital data..." Also stated: "13 states now ban abortion". Again a more accurate statement "the 13 most low IQ states in the US have banned abortion". Why anyone with the means to move still lives in those places is the real mystery. Seriously, If you feel these rights restrictions will affect you, move to California. If you are in a low income bracket, you get free health insurance in California, including abortion...