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This is the #1 problem with google/facebook/other giant companies - zero due process. They build a business around minimal human interaction with our staff and

This is the #1 problem with google/facebook/other giant companies - zero due process. They build a business around minimal human interaction with our staff and it shows when real problems come up. I'm frankly sick of hacker news being a facebook/google/whatever ticketing system. And yet, there's no alternative.

sircastor 4y ago
I remember for a while after Meta bought Oculus, they still had a Human support system. People who's Facebook accounts had been hacked/reset/whatever were buying Quest/Quest2s so they could get support for their Facebook account. It's obnoxious the extremes we have to go to. Especially when these representations of ourselves might reflect on us poorly through no fault of our own, and we have no recourse.
- rom-antics 4y ago
  FB's net income for 2022 was $28.83 billion. They could drop that to $28.82 billion and fund a good size customer support team.
  - lowercased 4y ago
    How dare you! Won't you think of the poor investors? /s
  - meepmorp 4y ago
    Jeff's divorce was expensive, they gotta make it up somehow.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I did not know Zuckerberg was subsidizing Bezos' divorce.
      - meepmorp 4y ago
        I think I replied to the wrong comment.
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      Jeff is at Amazon, not Facebook.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    I think you underestimate either the cost or the scale of support tickets that would flood in constantly.
    - dgudkov 4y ago
      I think you underestimate $28.83 billion.
      - newsclues 4y ago
        “FB's net income for 2022 was $28.83 billion. They could drop that to $28.82 billion and fund a good size customer support team.” I’m pretty sure the math of 28.83B - 28.82B is 0.01B or ten million dollars to support 2-3 Billion users worldwide. Which is laughable.
        Sparyjerry 4y ago
        As oppose to zero support now though. They only really need a queue. People would accept it if support got to their ticket in like a month from when they put it in. Hell they could even charge for customer support like $50 per hour or whatever and people would gladly pay it.
        newsclues 4y ago
        How many languages does FB support in how many different legal jurisdictions? If you hire the cheapest WFH customer support in the world, and provide a minimal service that was slow as heck, you couldn’t even setup a global program legally and in most languages for users for $10 million a year even if you charged for support tickets. The legal and localization costs will be massive.
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    How big of a team could you build for $10m/year? Maybe 30 people working at any given time? 50-100 if you offshore?
- oigursh 4y ago
  My favourite thing is the fake typing ellipsis that chat bots do, as they have infinite time and patience.
  - sircastor 4y ago
    It's one of those things that we script in to make it feel more comfortable for humans - add in those little things that we're used to. I'm reminded of a national tour put on by Nissan for the All-Electric LEAF when it first came out. We were told by our presenter that there was an aluminum cover under the hood designed to look like an engine block - apparently it was discomforting to people to open the hood and not see that component.
tialaramex 4y ago
Due Process may not be what you want at all. The problem is, Due Process means a human - probably paid very little - gets the power to overrule any technical controls. So maybe your account is protected by $$$ A+ security, no chance it can be breached, but oops, the "Due Process" person was just handed $100 cash to override that and allow this random person to become Justsignedup. So you might actually be better off with a Google situation where the company can't be bothered to hire anybody to be in that role, than a situation where they hire a bunch of minimum wage workers in the cheapest economy with plenty of Internet and don't care about oversight.
- annoyingnoob 4y ago
  Ha, they don't even 'hire' those people, they are contractors not employees. Contractors don't get benefits, unemployment, etc. And they can be short-term contracts where you cannot get back-to-back contracts, so constant turn-over.
criddell 4y ago
Would this be the kind of thing you could go use arbitration for?
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
I almost guarantee they have an inside man that they pay off to do this for them. I mean, they are crypto bros. They can crypto pay someone under the table. There's no transparency or even a support system. If the person gets caught, 99% chance facebook just lets them go. Their internal ticketing/debugging/support systems are very likely outsourced or low-pay workers or foreigners, and it won't be worth it to the company to sue them. Then people will know it happens.
throwawaylinux 4y ago
I disagree, I think the #1 problem with the people who run giant companies is they conspire with elected officials and others in the ruling class to keep and horde wealth and power over others. One of the major problems with social networks is zero due process, and clearly corporate backed networks manipulate and censor their users in pursuit of the above (e.g., see Twitter Files), but lack of fairness is not unique to corporations. Moderators who are drawn to the role "out of the goodness of their hearts" are among the most vicious, petty, vindictive, capricious, hypocritical, narcissistic, and unjust arbiters I've ever encountered. They also are the best of the best, but those ones are few and far between, and many tend to burn out as communities grow whereas the former type are a dime a dozen and thrive in the role. This is the main reason why I'm not all that hopeful for mastodon or not-corporate social networks.
smsm42 4y ago
Funny thing is, apparently the criminals do have human service at Instagram, while regular users don't.

sircastor 4y ago

I remember for a while after Meta bought Oculus, they still had a Human support system. People who's Facebook accounts had been hacked/reset/whatever were buying Quest/Quest2s so they could get support for their Facebook account. It's obnoxious the extremes we have to go to. Especially when these representations of ourselves might reflect on us poorly through no fault of our own, and we have no recourse.

rom-antics 4y ago
FB's net income for 2022 was $28.83 billion. They could drop that to $28.82 billion and fund a good size customer support team.
- lowercased 4y ago
  How dare you! Won't you think of the poor investors? /s
- meepmorp 4y ago
  Jeff's divorce was expensive, they gotta make it up somehow.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I did not know Zuckerberg was subsidizing Bezos' divorce.
    - meepmorp 4y ago
      I think I replied to the wrong comment.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    Jeff is at Amazon, not Facebook.
- newsclues 4y ago
  I think you underestimate either the cost or the scale of support tickets that would flood in constantly.
  - dgudkov 4y ago
    I think you underestimate $28.83 billion.
    - newsclues 4y ago
      “FB's net income for 2022 was $28.83 billion. They could drop that to $28.82 billion and fund a good size customer support team.” I’m pretty sure the math of 28.83B - 28.82B is 0.01B or ten million dollars to support 2-3 Billion users worldwide. Which is laughable.
      - Sparyjerry 4y ago
        As oppose to zero support now though. They only really need a queue. People would accept it if support got to their ticket in like a month from when they put it in. Hell they could even charge for customer support like $50 per hour or whatever and people would gladly pay it.
        newsclues 4y ago
        How many languages does FB support in how many different legal jurisdictions? If you hire the cheapest WFH customer support in the world, and provide a minimal service that was slow as heck, you couldn’t even setup a global program legally and in most languages for users for $10 million a year even if you charged for support tickets. The legal and localization costs will be massive.
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  How big of a team could you build for $10m/year? Maybe 30 people working at any given time? 50-100 if you offshore?
oigursh 4y ago
My favourite thing is the fake typing ellipsis that chat bots do, as they have infinite time and patience.
- sircastor 4y ago
  It's one of those things that we script in to make it feel more comfortable for humans - add in those little things that we're used to. I'm reminded of a national tour put on by Nissan for the All-Electric LEAF when it first came out. We were told by our presenter that there was an aluminum cover under the hood designed to look like an engine block - apparently it was discomforting to people to open the hood and not see that component.

tialaramex 4y ago

Due Process may not be what you want at all. The problem is, Due Process means a human - probably paid very little - gets the power to overrule any technical controls. So maybe your account is protected by $$$ A+ security, no chance it can be breached, but oops, the "Due Process" person was just handed $100 cash to override that and allow this random person to become Justsignedup. So you might actually be better off with a Google situation where the company can't be bothered to hire anybody to be in that role, than a situation where they hire a bunch of minimum wage workers in the cheapest economy with plenty of Internet and don't care about oversight.

annoyingnoob 4y ago
Ha, they don't even 'hire' those people, they are contractors not employees. Contractors don't get benefits, unemployment, etc. And they can be short-term contracts where you cannot get back-to-back contracts, so constant turn-over.

criddell 4y ago

Would this be the kind of thing you could go use arbitration for?

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

I almost guarantee they have an inside man that they pay off to do this for them. I mean, they are crypto bros. They can crypto pay someone under the table. There's no transparency or even a support system. If the person gets caught, 99% chance facebook just lets them go. Their internal ticketing/debugging/support systems are very likely outsourced or low-pay workers or foreigners, and it won't be worth it to the company to sue them. Then people will know it happens.

throwawaylinux 4y ago

I disagree, I think the #1 problem with the people who run giant companies is they conspire with elected officials and others in the ruling class to keep and horde wealth and power over others. One of the major problems with social networks is zero due process, and clearly corporate backed networks manipulate and censor their users in pursuit of the above (e.g., see Twitter Files), but lack of fairness is not unique to corporations. Moderators who are drawn to the role "out of the goodness of their hearts" are among the most vicious, petty, vindictive, capricious, hypocritical, narcissistic, and unjust arbiters I've ever encountered. They also are the best of the best, but those ones are few and far between, and many tend to burn out as communities grow whereas the former type are a dime a dozen and thrive in the role. This is the main reason why I'm not all that hopeful for mastodon or not-corporate social networks.

smsm42 4y ago

Funny thing is, apparently the criminals do have human service at Instagram, while regular users don't.