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Java is a language designed so that IBM can shovel interchangeable programmers into a furnace and produce something functional. Once you start with that goal,

by ethbr0 4y ago

Java is a language designed so that IBM can shovel interchangeable programmers into a furnace and produce something functional. Once you start with that goal, all the compromises and quirks make more sense.

hazn 4y ago
Do you mean big red and not big blue with that statement? Also, this reads as unnecessary snide. Having a language that makes it easy to onboard new people is a major strength. A lot of Golangs success is attributed to that strength of the language.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  IMHO, modern IBM (inasmuch as it exists) is the textbook target for Java, from a professional services standpoint. And it's snide and isn't. There's a lot to be said of being able to shovel programmers into a furnace and produce something functional. Decreasing risk to timeline and of failure makes large project PMs very happy. And generally makes stakeholders happy, because things don't outright fail as often.
- davidcuddeback 4y ago
  > Do you mean big red and not big blue with that statement? I assume you're referring to Oracle here, but Oracle didn't invent Java either. Java came out of Sun Microsystems, whose color scheme seems to shift between blue and purple, so "big violet?" Just doesn't have the same ring to it.
mikepurvis 4y ago
See, it's funny because as a consumer of software, I've overall been pretty pleased with solutions that come out of that process (think Jenkins, Artifactory, Elastic, Bazel). So it does seem capable of leading to reasonable results on the eventual timescale, despite various inconveniences and tradeoffs along the way. Of course, lots of terrible software has certainly been written in Java too, so it's not fair to compare Java's cream of the crop with some random PyPI package and draw conclusions.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  I think Java got a lot better when it stopped trying to bring along a OS GUI toolkit. Hence the vastly different experience between Java-exposed-as-app and Java-exposed-as-webapp.
simiones 4y ago
Pretty sure Sun wasn't working for IBM when they designed Java, were they?
- bluGill 4y ago
  Now, but IBM went all in on it which was an important boost.
pjmlp 4y ago
Sun was the one creating and designing Java....
jimbokun 4y ago
Java is also a language with extensive library support, and some of the most sophisticated tooling and virtual machines with state virtual machine and garbage collection implementations of any language. The most recent versions of the language are much more programmer friendly than previous versions, greatly cutting the expressibility gap with other languages. Just stay away from Spring, and you can have a nice development experience.
- bluGill 4y ago
  The topic here isn't modern Java, it is last 90s early 2000s java. Spring was either not invented yet, but the thought process behind it was already in place, or the new hotness everyone needed to know.

by ethbr0 4y ago

hazn 4y ago

Do you mean big red and not big blue with that statement? Also, this reads as unnecessary snide. Having a language that makes it easy to onboard new people is a major strength. A lot of Golangs success is attributed to that strength of the language.

ethbr0 4y ago
IMHO, modern IBM (inasmuch as it exists) is the textbook target for Java, from a professional services standpoint. And it's snide and isn't. There's a lot to be said of being able to shovel programmers into a furnace and produce something functional. Decreasing risk to timeline and of failure makes large project PMs very happy. And generally makes stakeholders happy, because things don't outright fail as often.
davidcuddeback 4y ago
> Do you mean big red and not big blue with that statement? I assume you're referring to Oracle here, but Oracle didn't invent Java either. Java came out of Sun Microsystems, whose color scheme seems to shift between blue and purple, so "big violet?" Just doesn't have the same ring to it.

mikepurvis 4y ago

See, it's funny because as a consumer of software, I've overall been pretty pleased with solutions that come out of that process (think Jenkins, Artifactory, Elastic, Bazel). So it does seem capable of leading to reasonable results on the eventual timescale, despite various inconveniences and tradeoffs along the way. Of course, lots of terrible software has certainly been written in Java too, so it's not fair to compare Java's cream of the crop with some random PyPI package and draw conclusions.

ethbr0 4y ago
I think Java got a lot better when it stopped trying to bring along a OS GUI toolkit. Hence the vastly different experience between Java-exposed-as-app and Java-exposed-as-webapp.

simiones 4y ago

Pretty sure Sun wasn't working for IBM when they designed Java, were they?

bluGill 4y ago
Now, but IBM went all in on it which was an important boost.

pjmlp 4y ago

Sun was the one creating and designing Java....

jimbokun 4y ago

Java is also a language with extensive library support, and some of the most sophisticated tooling and virtual machines with state virtual machine and garbage collection implementations of any language. The most recent versions of the language are much more programmer friendly than previous versions, greatly cutting the expressibility gap with other languages. Just stay away from Spring, and you can have a nice development experience.

bluGill 4y ago
The topic here isn't modern Java, it is last 90s early 2000s java. Spring was either not invented yet, but the thought process behind it was already in place, or the new hotness everyone needed to know.