37 ms·

What if the previous owner lost their account, is not reachable, or died? Ideally you should be able to take such a locked device to some official place, like

What if the previous owner lost their account, is not reachable, or died? Ideally you should be able to take such a locked device to some official place, like a town hall, and they should be able to look up the previous owner. If they are deceased or they confirm that they no longer want the device, then after checking IDs and so on that office should be able to start the process to unlock the device. (That same department could give you recourse if your house burns down and you loose all your digital accounts, or you are locked out of Google unfairly.) Our civil institutions have not really kept up with technology here. Edit: Of course I wouldn't give government the capability to decrypt anybodys device or something! Just have an organisation that's purpose is to clarify ownership, and wipe and reuse devices so they don't end up as in a landfill. I don't really trust the vendor alone to optimize for reusing used devices.

mvanbaak 4y ago
If you can prove you legally obtained the locked apple device, apple can unlock it for you. So this is a solved problem
- bzzzt 4y ago
  Being given an old MacBook (by the original owner) is legal, but if you don't have a receipt Apple won't do a thing...
  - mvanbaak 4y ago
    That original owner can simply remove the macbook from their appleid and the whole thing is solved, even if the macbook is already in your hands.
ethanbond 4y ago
No, this shouldn’t be the case at all. Set this up with your family members if you want this to happen when you die. Give them your 1Password login and recovery keys or something. I do not want anyone, least of all city hall to be able to unlock my stuff under any circumstance, including the one where I’m dead.
- captainmuon 4y ago
  We already have something similar with bicycle registrations, and of course with cars (titles). There should be a big cerimonial thing where I go to a place with a sworn in official, show my ID, and say "I hereby lock down this device for all time with the power of cryptography" so that nobody can use it as long as I'm considered the legitimate owner. OK I'm exaggerating. But the problem is real. If you buy a second hand device this can happen, or if you have a company and a previous employee doesn't unlock it for some reason. Yeah, ideally you should have documentation of an unbroken chain of ownership and should be able to go to Apple. But in reality that doesn't happen, and I think Apple isn't the best custodian for this. They don't have an incentive to reduce the number of thrown away producs. (To be clear, I wouldn't trust current governments either! But conceptually, this function belongs in the civil area and not in private hand.)
  - dijit 4y ago
    > if you have a company and a previous employee doesn't unlock it for some reason When you buy an Apple computer as a company you should enroll it with MDM. MDM bypasses this issue completely, you can remotely wipe and re-use a computer if it's signed to a companies MDM.
  - krisoft 4y ago
    > If you buy a second hand device this can happen If you buy a second hand device and this happens you bring it back to whom you bought it from and ask it to be unlocked or your money back. Same as if it does just not turn on. > if you have a company and a previous employee doesn't unlock it for some reason You put it into the offboarding process to check this. If it is missed or can’t be done for some reason you take it to Apple with proof of purchase and they unlock it for you. > But in reality that doesn't happen Yeah. Like for example you fenced a laptop from a shady guy.
- bakugo 4y ago
  > I do not want anyone, least of all city hall to be able to unlock my stuff under any circumstance, including the one where I’m dead. Why do you think anyone here is talking about decrypting your data? What's being discussed is wiping the devices and making them usable by someone else.
axus 4y ago
I'd imagine the potential number of estate sales is far less than the potential number of stolen products. I wonder if there's any organized crime groups that have tried to get someone hired into Apple support for unlocking these things.
Telemakhos 4y ago
I have no intention of trusting our civil institutions with access to my private data. In fact, as a citizen of the United States I would like to see the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution more widely held to prohibit our civil institutions from having access to my private data. I do not believe that I am secure in my papers and effects from unreasonable searches and seizures if our civil institutions have the power to lock or unlock my devices and accounts.
- acdha 4y ago
  That’s not what’s being proposed at all: Apple clearing the activation lock doesn’t give you the previous owner’s encryption key. It does let you wipe it and generate your own key.
  - Telemakhos 4y ago
    The GP also specifically proposes some institution which can grant you access to your Google account if you are locked out "unfairly." Besides the weasel word "unfairly," that means the government gets to determine who can access your Google account. Adding in "unfairly" implies that your access to digital accounts depends on a politician's notion of what it means to "fairly" lock you out of an account, and I guarantee you that, in the fullness of time, that will come to include political dissidence.
    - acdha 4y ago
      > that means the government gets to determine who can access your Google account This is already the case legally: if you lose a court case, Google will follow a legal order to turn something over to the winner. If you're suspected of some kind of crime, Google will follow a legal order granting the relevant authorities access to something like your Gmail messages. It's also important to remember that this is a real problem affecting a lot of people: ask anyone who deals with the larger public and you'll hear that it's not uncommon for people to change email addresses after getting locked out of their old one, and that problem disproportionately affects certain groups of people (e.g. the elderly). What would make sense in this regard is something similar to what Apple does where you can optionally set up a legacy contact who is allowed to initiate a password reset, presumably with time delays and notifications (“your password will be reset in 3 days unless you deny this request”). Imagine an option where you could do something like go to the local public library, DMV, police station, notary, etc. and they could basically login to a special Google form to attest that they did a full photo ID validation to confirm that your ID matched the ID registered to an account. That would be useful for thousands of people and if you made it optional, people who are especially worried about their government could choose not to enable it.
formerly_proven 4y ago
What is it with HN and blind faith in delegating literally everything to the state?
- bzzzt 4y ago
  Because delegating it to the manufacturer produces a conflict of interest (said manufacturer can't be bothered to unlock a device which is legally yours, prefers to sell a new one). Registering possessions (house, land, cars etc) is already a task of the state so it would fit there.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  The state is already in charge of arbitrating ownership. It has to be. So why not use that to reduce bricking?
FredPret 4y ago
I’m not handing the keys to my digital life to a politician
- bzzzt 4y ago
  Your car is also registered by the state, but you don't have to give your keys to a politician.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
kube-system 4y ago
> Ideally you should be able to take such a locked device to some official place, like a town hall, and they should be able to look up the previous owner. Local governments struggle to provide basic services like roads, emergency services, and utilities. Offering a product registration service for Apple devices is so low on anyone's priorities that it might as well be in a different universe.

mvanbaak 4y ago

If you can prove you legally obtained the locked apple device, apple can unlock it for you. So this is a solved problem

bzzzt 4y ago
Being given an old MacBook (by the original owner) is legal, but if you don't have a receipt Apple won't do a thing...
- mvanbaak 4y ago
  That original owner can simply remove the macbook from their appleid and the whole thing is solved, even if the macbook is already in your hands.

ethanbond 4y ago

No, this shouldn’t be the case at all. Set this up with your family members if you want this to happen when you die. Give them your 1Password login and recovery keys or something. I do not want anyone, least of all city hall to be able to unlock my stuff under any circumstance, including the one where I’m dead.

captainmuon 4y ago
We already have something similar with bicycle registrations, and of course with cars (titles). There should be a big cerimonial thing where I go to a place with a sworn in official, show my ID, and say "I hereby lock down this device for all time with the power of cryptography" so that nobody can use it as long as I'm considered the legitimate owner. OK I'm exaggerating. But the problem is real. If you buy a second hand device this can happen, or if you have a company and a previous employee doesn't unlock it for some reason. Yeah, ideally you should have documentation of an unbroken chain of ownership and should be able to go to Apple. But in reality that doesn't happen, and I think Apple isn't the best custodian for this. They don't have an incentive to reduce the number of thrown away producs. (To be clear, I wouldn't trust current governments either! But conceptually, this function belongs in the civil area and not in private hand.)
- dijit 4y ago
  > if you have a company and a previous employee doesn't unlock it for some reason When you buy an Apple computer as a company you should enroll it with MDM. MDM bypasses this issue completely, you can remotely wipe and re-use a computer if it's signed to a companies MDM.
- krisoft 4y ago
  > If you buy a second hand device this can happen If you buy a second hand device and this happens you bring it back to whom you bought it from and ask it to be unlocked or your money back. Same as if it does just not turn on. > if you have a company and a previous employee doesn't unlock it for some reason You put it into the offboarding process to check this. If it is missed or can’t be done for some reason you take it to Apple with proof of purchase and they unlock it for you. > But in reality that doesn't happen Yeah. Like for example you fenced a laptop from a shady guy.
bakugo 4y ago
> I do not want anyone, least of all city hall to be able to unlock my stuff under any circumstance, including the one where I’m dead. Why do you think anyone here is talking about decrypting your data? What's being discussed is wiping the devices and making them usable by someone else.

axus 4y ago

I'd imagine the potential number of estate sales is far less than the potential number of stolen products. I wonder if there's any organized crime groups that have tried to get someone hired into Apple support for unlocking these things.

Telemakhos 4y ago

I have no intention of trusting our civil institutions with access to my private data. In fact, as a citizen of the United States I would like to see the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution more widely held to prohibit our civil institutions from having access to my private data. I do not believe that I am secure in my papers and effects from unreasonable searches and seizures if our civil institutions have the power to lock or unlock my devices and accounts.

acdha 4y ago
That’s not what’s being proposed at all: Apple clearing the activation lock doesn’t give you the previous owner’s encryption key. It does let you wipe it and generate your own key.
- Telemakhos 4y ago
  The GP also specifically proposes some institution which can grant you access to your Google account if you are locked out "unfairly." Besides the weasel word "unfairly," that means the government gets to determine who can access your Google account. Adding in "unfairly" implies that your access to digital accounts depends on a politician's notion of what it means to "fairly" lock you out of an account, and I guarantee you that, in the fullness of time, that will come to include political dissidence.
  - acdha 4y ago
    > that means the government gets to determine who can access your Google account This is already the case legally: if you lose a court case, Google will follow a legal order to turn something over to the winner. If you're suspected of some kind of crime, Google will follow a legal order granting the relevant authorities access to something like your Gmail messages. It's also important to remember that this is a real problem affecting a lot of people: ask anyone who deals with the larger public and you'll hear that it's not uncommon for people to change email addresses after getting locked out of their old one, and that problem disproportionately affects certain groups of people (e.g. the elderly). What would make sense in this regard is something similar to what Apple does where you can optionally set up a legacy contact who is allowed to initiate a password reset, presumably with time delays and notifications (“your password will be reset in 3 days unless you deny this request”). Imagine an option where you could do something like go to the local public library, DMV, police station, notary, etc. and they could basically login to a special Google form to attest that they did a full photo ID validation to confirm that your ID matched the ID registered to an account. That would be useful for thousands of people and if you made it optional, people who are especially worried about their government could choose not to enable it.

formerly_proven 4y ago

What is it with HN and blind faith in delegating literally everything to the state?

bzzzt 4y ago
Because delegating it to the manufacturer produces a conflict of interest (said manufacturer can't be bothered to unlock a device which is legally yours, prefers to sell a new one). Registering possessions (house, land, cars etc) is already a task of the state so it would fit there.
Dylan16807 4y ago
The state is already in charge of arbitrating ownership. It has to be. So why not use that to reduce bricking?

FredPret 4y ago

I’m not handing the keys to my digital life to a politician

bzzzt 4y ago
Your car is also registered by the state, but you don't have to give your keys to a politician.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

kube-system 4y ago

> Ideally you should be able to take such a locked device to some official place, like a town hall, and they should be able to look up the previous owner. Local governments struggle to provide basic services like roads, emergency services, and utilities. Offering a product registration service for Apple devices is so low on anyone's priorities that it might as well be in a different universe.