6 ms·

I have nothing to add to the font aspect but here's fellow HNer's advice how to approach these books: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20859569 https://news

by dvh 4y ago

I have nothing to add to the font aspect but here's fellow HNer's advice how to approach these books: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20859569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20859569

jonah-archive 4y ago
re the advice in that post -- I completely agree but I would say that if you enjoy God Emperor (I do, deeply), between that and Heretics go read _The Dune Encyclopedia_, which is a hard-to-find paperback but an easy-to-find PDF written as an in-universe encyclopedia set after God Emperor. Yes, some things in it are contradicted by the remaining two books, but it adds such a powerful structure to the extant universe in a remarkably satisfying way.
- mathieuh 4y ago
  I've read the Frank Herbert Dune books back-to-back several times and love them all, but I've never tried his son's additions to the series because I've read a few people saying they're not worth the time. Do you agree?
  - dunefox 4y ago
    It's just Dune fan fiction...
    - giantrobot 4y ago
      It's just a model!
  - latch 4y ago
    I'm not the parent, but I've also read all the original 6 books a great number of times, as well as about 7 or 8 of the B. Herbert/K. Anderson Dune books, and I'd say they aren't worth it. They largely explain things that, as far as I'm concerned, didn't need explaining. As you probably know, they wrote a 2 book conclusion to the series. These 2 books largely tie the Frank Herbert Dune universe with the B. Herbert/K. Anderson Dune universe. And that seemed quite forced to me and, cynically, felt like an attempt to force you to read their Dune prequel trilogy (because otherwise, you'll be WTF is Erasmus?) I feel like Frank Herbert, being an immensely better writer, would have been able to conclude the series without forcing a prequel trilogy onto readers. It wasn't until I read some of the more immediate books (universe time-wise) from the duo that I came to appreciate how effortless Frank Herbert's writing is. Gurney Halleck is loyal, he just is. And that loyalty is clearly based on respect for the Duke, being on the side of "good", and a hate for the Harkonnen. We don't need a justification for Halleck's devotion. It's pure and effortless character development. The duo doesn't have that seem ease of writing, so instead we get the back story, torture and rape (lazy themes) that tainted the character/original work.
    - jonah-archive 4y ago
      I totally agree with this. One of the strengths of the original Dune series is how willing Frank Herbert is to leave things unsaid -- it's a complex universe that has lost a lot of knowledge, just like ours! It covers timespans that admit archaeology! The idea that there's an accessible succinct narrative arc that ties the story up in a neat little bow is antithetical to the strengths of the original series, in my opinion.
      - bena 4y ago
        That may the difference between good world-building and what people think good world-building is. People think that if the author doesn't know everything about the world, it's not "fleshed out". But if you look to some of the best fiction out there, the world is more suggested than built. I think a good example of this is George Lucas. He went from good to bad by doing the thing people perceived as good. In the original Star Wars trilogy, things just are. The Clone Wars were a line. A throwaway to explain why Leia was seeking out Obi-Wan never having even seen the man. Han and all of his pre-trilogy relationships are given surface level explanations. You never go deep. What happens between A New Hope and Empire is suggested, alluded to, but never explained. And why should they be explained? All the characters know these things. There's no need to exposit these things again. You're given the impression that there exists a much larger world than the small window you've seen. Then, in the prequel trilogy, everything is presented as backstory to some other element. Stormtroopers are the successors of the Clone Troopers who are cloned from Jango Fett who had a clone made of himself he named Boba. Of course, Jango is also a bounty hunter. Anakin is from Tatooine. Chewbacca rolled with Yoda back in the day. We know, biologically, exactly what allows people to access the Force. And on and on. Everything is given an explanation. And that, ironically, makes the world feel a lot smaller.
    - devaler 4y ago
      This a really strong, and very good breakdown of the problems with the prequels. They essentially take the complex, developed characters of Frank Herbert and turn them into into trite caricatures of themselves.
    - indymike 4y ago
  - gerikson 4y ago
    I tried reading the first and couldn't get through it.
  - jonah-archive 4y ago
    IMHO the Dune Encyclopedia (written in collaboration with Frank Herbert) does a much better job elucidating aspects of the Dune Universe in an interesting way than Brian's books do -- there's a narrative thread that weaves through the last three of Frank's books that is really, really present and which Brian's books set aside for an alternative -- and to my view, much less satisfying -- interpretation of late-stage events in the series.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    It’s not that they’re not worth the time, but they’re clearly written by someone else, and try to attach onto a cohesive whole in a way that doesn’t quite feel right.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    They're quite bad, and I doubt very much they are based on Frank Herbert's "found notes" in any way. If they are, Brian Herbert should publish those notes, like Christopher Tolkien did. Lower quality writing, and not thoughtful, and the story arc they take things in seems much cruder than what Frank Herbert would have had in mind.
    - shagie 4y ago
      The trick in following from notes is that you need to become the author. Consider Variable Star by Spider Robinson which is based on 7 surviving pages of 8 pages of notes written in 1955 by Robert A. Heinlein. http://www.spiderrobinson.com/reilly.html http://www.spiderrobinson.com/reilly.html > So I went home, and received a copy of Robert’s outline and notes, and loved them, and wrote two sample chapters and a proposal and a title (Robert had put down seven possible titles, but even he didn’t like any of them much), and they were all approved by Art Dula, and in the fullness of time the book, to be known as “ROBERT A. HEINLEIN’S VARIABLE STAR by Spider Robinson,” sold to Tor for the proverbial six figures. > Since then, little dividends of joy keep coming in, like the receding ripples of pleasure that accompany a truly great orgasm--and sometimes, if you’re lucky, signal that it’s about to become a multiple. For example, Art Dula moved me to tears by sending me, out of the blue, Robert’s desk dictionary, heavily used and carefully repaired--Robert Heinlein’s personal box of words. He filled out the package with a pound of authentic Jamaica Blue Mountain. Similarly, sweet Amy sent me a set of her grandfather’s cufflinks to wear as I type VARIABLE STAR, and Jeanne a few pieces of her grandmother’s jewelry to wear for me when I stumble from the typewriter. I feel supported and encouraged by the whole Heinlein family and legacy. That makes me the luckiest writer alive. And one of the luckiest readers. When writing it, he had the same "these are the words that you are to use while writing as Heinlein." One of the reviews http://www.spiderrobinson.com/variablefans.html http://www.spiderrobinson.com/variablefans.html > This novel should be the example held forth when writers collaborate. Spider has perfectly captured the pacing, feel and stature of a Robert Heinlein story while retaining his own identity. It doesn’t feel like someone trying to “write like Heinlein”, but like someone who’s read every book the man’s written so many times it’s second nature. https://bookshop.org/p/books/variable-star-robert-a-heinlein/6986306 https://bookshop.org/p/books/variable-star-robert-a-heinlein... > "Completing a book from notes by a dead author is almost always a mistake. But Robert A. Heinlein apparently isn't really dead. He was obviously standing at the side of Spider Robinson as he wrote this book, guiding his hand. Variable Star will delight the fans of the greatest science fiction writer who ever lived, and at the same time, stays true to Spider's passionate themes of optimism, kindness, and humanity's future among the stars." --John Varley, Hugo and Nebula Award-winning author of The Persistence of Vision and Steel Beach This is the way to do continuations - not fan fiction but, for lack of a better word, channeling the spirit of the original author so that you can become them and use the same style rather than imposing your own style on top of their world.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  > Yes, some things in it are contradicted by the remaining two books At a surface level, yes. At a deeper level, the authors of the Encyclopedia themselves exist as researchers in the Dune universe, and can be mistaken about their findings. :)
- jasone 4y ago
  I started reading the PDF last year after failing to find a hardcopy, but the pervasive OCR-induced typos stopped me cold.
dmitriid 4y ago
My personal take (having read the entire series including the tacked-on ending by the son) is: The first Dune is the result of research and thinking. Great care went into it. Every subsequent book is more and more of "oh, here's a sequel". I can't remember anything after God Emperor which in itself was a slog bordering of abysmally bad. So: - Dune. Yes. It's slow, long, but ultimately very good - Dune Messiah. Maybe - Children of Dune. Can already be skipped - Skip the rest of the series, they are not worth it. At all YMMV :)
- simonh 4y ago
  I really like Dune Messiah. Most of it was written before the original book was published, and supposedly it was going to be part of it but had to be cut or the book would be too long. It's certainly part of Herbert's original creative vision for the story. However I know a lot of people read it and find the apparent inversion of the story arc uncomfortable to the point of dislike, but for me it's an essential piece of the puzzle to understand what Paul is actually going through in the first book, and the extreme lengths he's prepared to go through and sacrifices he's prepared to make to shift the trajectory of events. The problem is that just like the other characters the in novel, Paul's family, adherents and friends, a lot of readers just want an uncomplicated hero story for him.
- jon-wood 4y ago
  For me the sequels never hit the same highs as Dune, but they’re still better than most sci-fi novels that have been written, and I love how they gradually lean ever further into just being really weird. God Emperor is probably the pinnacle of that. I don’t remember much of Heretics or Chapterhouse, I should probably go back and re-read them at some point.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    You might find it interesting re-reading God Emperor and its sequels in the context of today's LLM/ChatGTP etc context. Also automated surveilance. Herbert's focus on human vs not-human, machine-thinking vs human-thinking, and his focus on "becoming invisible" (to prescience and to machines) as a path to freedom... is very relevant.
jasonkester 4y ago
Ah, shame. I was hoping to find my own comment on the subject linked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15961291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15961291 Basically the same advice, but in a more condensed form.
runevault 4y ago
I'm someone who stopped after God Emperor because I was under the impression the next books were an arc and it stops in a weird place if you end where Herbert did because of his passing. It was interesting because I struggled with Dune, made it to the time skip, and stopped. Then the recent movie came out, I decided to read the rest, enjoyed it far more, and kept going. Blasted through Messiah through God Emperor pretty quickly with I think only one pause to get another book in that had just come out. God Emperor is certainly not for everyone but I enjoyed it a great deal.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
legohead 4y ago
I'm in the process of reading the 6 books. Once I got spoiled and saw what the God Emperor was, I just had to know how it came to be. My first attempt at reading the series about 20 years ago died on book 3, which I never finished. Now I'm on book 3 again. Messiah was difficult. So complicated, little (no?) action, but I do enjoy some political intrigue so I slogged through it. Book 3 is better, with really interesting parts intermixed with slow. I'm forcing myself through all the books this time. It's just so slow reading for me. Dune 1 was so fantastic and fascinating. The other ones (so far) have such heavy, dense writing and ideas, I am constantly re-reading pages.

by dvh 4y ago

I have nothing to add to the font aspect but here's fellow HNer's advice how to approach these books: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20859569 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20859569

jonah-archive 4y ago

re the advice in that post -- I completely agree but I would say that if you enjoy God Emperor (I do, deeply), between that and Heretics go read _The Dune Encyclopedia_, which is a hard-to-find paperback but an easy-to-find PDF written as an in-universe encyclopedia set after God Emperor. Yes, some things in it are contradicted by the remaining two books, but it adds such a powerful structure to the extant universe in a remarkably satisfying way.

mathieuh 4y ago
I've read the Frank Herbert Dune books back-to-back several times and love them all, but I've never tried his son's additions to the series because I've read a few people saying they're not worth the time. Do you agree?
- dunefox 4y ago
  It's just Dune fan fiction...
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    It's just a model!
- latch 4y ago
  I'm not the parent, but I've also read all the original 6 books a great number of times, as well as about 7 or 8 of the B. Herbert/K. Anderson Dune books, and I'd say they aren't worth it. They largely explain things that, as far as I'm concerned, didn't need explaining. As you probably know, they wrote a 2 book conclusion to the series. These 2 books largely tie the Frank Herbert Dune universe with the B. Herbert/K. Anderson Dune universe. And that seemed quite forced to me and, cynically, felt like an attempt to force you to read their Dune prequel trilogy (because otherwise, you'll be WTF is Erasmus?) I feel like Frank Herbert, being an immensely better writer, would have been able to conclude the series without forcing a prequel trilogy onto readers. It wasn't until I read some of the more immediate books (universe time-wise) from the duo that I came to appreciate how effortless Frank Herbert's writing is. Gurney Halleck is loyal, he just is. And that loyalty is clearly based on respect for the Duke, being on the side of "good", and a hate for the Harkonnen. We don't need a justification for Halleck's devotion. It's pure and effortless character development. The duo doesn't have that seem ease of writing, so instead we get the back story, torture and rape (lazy themes) that tainted the character/original work.
  - jonah-archive 4y ago
    I totally agree with this. One of the strengths of the original Dune series is how willing Frank Herbert is to leave things unsaid -- it's a complex universe that has lost a lot of knowledge, just like ours! It covers timespans that admit archaeology! The idea that there's an accessible succinct narrative arc that ties the story up in a neat little bow is antithetical to the strengths of the original series, in my opinion.
    - bena 4y ago
      That may the difference between good world-building and what people think good world-building is. People think that if the author doesn't know everything about the world, it's not "fleshed out". But if you look to some of the best fiction out there, the world is more suggested than built. I think a good example of this is George Lucas. He went from good to bad by doing the thing people perceived as good. In the original Star Wars trilogy, things just are. The Clone Wars were a line. A throwaway to explain why Leia was seeking out Obi-Wan never having even seen the man. Han and all of his pre-trilogy relationships are given surface level explanations. You never go deep. What happens between A New Hope and Empire is suggested, alluded to, but never explained. And why should they be explained? All the characters know these things. There's no need to exposit these things again. You're given the impression that there exists a much larger world than the small window you've seen. Then, in the prequel trilogy, everything is presented as backstory to some other element. Stormtroopers are the successors of the Clone Troopers who are cloned from Jango Fett who had a clone made of himself he named Boba. Of course, Jango is also a bounty hunter. Anakin is from Tatooine. Chewbacca rolled with Yoda back in the day. We know, biologically, exactly what allows people to access the Force. And on and on. Everything is given an explanation. And that, ironically, makes the world feel a lot smaller.
  - devaler 4y ago
    This a really strong, and very good breakdown of the problems with the prequels. They essentially take the complex, developed characters of Frank Herbert and turn them into into trite caricatures of themselves.
  - indymike 4y ago
- gerikson 4y ago
  I tried reading the first and couldn't get through it.
- jonah-archive 4y ago
  IMHO the Dune Encyclopedia (written in collaboration with Frank Herbert) does a much better job elucidating aspects of the Dune Universe in an interesting way than Brian's books do -- there's a narrative thread that weaves through the last three of Frank's books that is really, really present and which Brian's books set aside for an alternative -- and to my view, much less satisfying -- interpretation of late-stage events in the series.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  It’s not that they’re not worth the time, but they’re clearly written by someone else, and try to attach onto a cohesive whole in a way that doesn’t quite feel right.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  They're quite bad, and I doubt very much they are based on Frank Herbert's "found notes" in any way. If they are, Brian Herbert should publish those notes, like Christopher Tolkien did. Lower quality writing, and not thoughtful, and the story arc they take things in seems much cruder than what Frank Herbert would have had in mind.
  - shagie 4y ago
    The trick in following from notes is that you need to become the author. Consider Variable Star by Spider Robinson which is based on 7 surviving pages of 8 pages of notes written in 1955 by Robert A. Heinlein. http://www.spiderrobinson.com/reilly.html http://www.spiderrobinson.com/reilly.html > So I went home, and received a copy of Robert’s outline and notes, and loved them, and wrote two sample chapters and a proposal and a title (Robert had put down seven possible titles, but even he didn’t like any of them much), and they were all approved by Art Dula, and in the fullness of time the book, to be known as “ROBERT A. HEINLEIN’S VARIABLE STAR by Spider Robinson,” sold to Tor for the proverbial six figures. > Since then, little dividends of joy keep coming in, like the receding ripples of pleasure that accompany a truly great orgasm--and sometimes, if you’re lucky, signal that it’s about to become a multiple. For example, Art Dula moved me to tears by sending me, out of the blue, Robert’s desk dictionary, heavily used and carefully repaired--Robert Heinlein’s personal box of words. He filled out the package with a pound of authentic Jamaica Blue Mountain. Similarly, sweet Amy sent me a set of her grandfather’s cufflinks to wear as I type VARIABLE STAR, and Jeanne a few pieces of her grandmother’s jewelry to wear for me when I stumble from the typewriter. I feel supported and encouraged by the whole Heinlein family and legacy. That makes me the luckiest writer alive. And one of the luckiest readers. When writing it, he had the same "these are the words that you are to use while writing as Heinlein." One of the reviews http://www.spiderrobinson.com/variablefans.html http://www.spiderrobinson.com/variablefans.html > This novel should be the example held forth when writers collaborate. Spider has perfectly captured the pacing, feel and stature of a Robert Heinlein story while retaining his own identity. It doesn’t feel like someone trying to “write like Heinlein”, but like someone who’s read every book the man’s written so many times it’s second nature. https://bookshop.org/p/books/variable-star-robert-a-heinlein/6986306 https://bookshop.org/p/books/variable-star-robert-a-heinlein... > "Completing a book from notes by a dead author is almost always a mistake. But Robert A. Heinlein apparently isn't really dead. He was obviously standing at the side of Spider Robinson as he wrote this book, guiding his hand. Variable Star will delight the fans of the greatest science fiction writer who ever lived, and at the same time, stays true to Spider's passionate themes of optimism, kindness, and humanity's future among the stars." --John Varley, Hugo and Nebula Award-winning author of The Persistence of Vision and Steel Beach This is the way to do continuations - not fan fiction but, for lack of a better word, channeling the spirit of the original author so that you can become them and use the same style rather than imposing your own style on top of their world.
duskwuff 4y ago
> Yes, some things in it are contradicted by the remaining two books At a surface level, yes. At a deeper level, the authors of the Encyclopedia themselves exist as researchers in the Dune universe, and can be mistaken about their findings. :)
jasone 4y ago
I started reading the PDF last year after failing to find a hardcopy, but the pervasive OCR-induced typos stopped me cold.

dmitriid 4y ago

My personal take (having read the entire series including the tacked-on ending by the son) is: The first Dune is the result of research and thinking. Great care went into it. Every subsequent book is more and more of "oh, here's a sequel". I can't remember anything after God Emperor which in itself was a slog bordering of abysmally bad. So: - Dune. Yes. It's slow, long, but ultimately very good - Dune Messiah. Maybe - Children of Dune. Can already be skipped - Skip the rest of the series, they are not worth it. At all YMMV :)

simonh 4y ago
I really like Dune Messiah. Most of it was written before the original book was published, and supposedly it was going to be part of it but had to be cut or the book would be too long. It's certainly part of Herbert's original creative vision for the story. However I know a lot of people read it and find the apparent inversion of the story arc uncomfortable to the point of dislike, but for me it's an essential piece of the puzzle to understand what Paul is actually going through in the first book, and the extreme lengths he's prepared to go through and sacrifices he's prepared to make to shift the trajectory of events. The problem is that just like the other characters the in novel, Paul's family, adherents and friends, a lot of readers just want an uncomplicated hero story for him.
jon-wood 4y ago
For me the sequels never hit the same highs as Dune, but they’re still better than most sci-fi novels that have been written, and I love how they gradually lean ever further into just being really weird. God Emperor is probably the pinnacle of that. I don’t remember much of Heretics or Chapterhouse, I should probably go back and re-read them at some point.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  You might find it interesting re-reading God Emperor and its sequels in the context of today's LLM/ChatGTP etc context. Also automated surveilance. Herbert's focus on human vs not-human, machine-thinking vs human-thinking, and his focus on "becoming invisible" (to prescience and to machines) as a path to freedom... is very relevant.

jasonkester 4y ago

Ah, shame. I was hoping to find my own comment on the subject linked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15961291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15961291 Basically the same advice, but in a more condensed form.

runevault 4y ago

I'm someone who stopped after God Emperor because I was under the impression the next books were an arc and it stops in a weird place if you end where Herbert did because of his passing. It was interesting because I struggled with Dune, made it to the time skip, and stopped. Then the recent movie came out, I decided to read the rest, enjoyed it far more, and kept going. Blasted through Messiah through God Emperor pretty quickly with I think only one pause to get another book in that had just come out. God Emperor is certainly not for everyone but I enjoyed it a great deal.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

legohead 4y ago

I'm in the process of reading the 6 books. Once I got spoiled and saw what the God Emperor was, I just had to know how it came to be. My first attempt at reading the series about 20 years ago died on book 3, which I never finished. Now I'm on book 3 again. Messiah was difficult. So complicated, little (no?) action, but I do enjoy some political intrigue so I slogged through it. Book 3 is better, with really interesting parts intermixed with slow. I'm forcing myself through all the books this time. It's just so slow reading for me. Dune 1 was so fantastic and fascinating. The other ones (so far) have such heavy, dense writing and ideas, I am constantly re-reading pages.