7 ms·

It seems like if our society had UBI (Universal Basic Income) we wouldn't have to worry so much over cases like this - people would be able to get by, it wouldn

by yboris 4y ago

It seems like if our society had UBI (Universal Basic Income) we wouldn't have to worry so much over cases like this - people would be able to get by, it wouldn't be a crisis for so many individuals.

r053bud 4y ago
Yup! But here in the USA it's all about profits baby!
qclibre22 4y ago
Everybody wants a government handout. Nobody wants to pay the taxes to fund it.
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago
  That's a fairly North American Continent point of view I think. Not everyone classifies government spending as a handout. Many countries have some sort of "Labour party" that tends to want to have high taxes, and over time such parties get plenty of votes.
  - lokedhs 4y ago
    Is it? Or is is mainly US? My impression is that Canada is a much more like Europe in this respect, and Mexico doesn't seem aligned with this either?
    - rowanajmarshall 4y ago
      Canada is pretty much in the middle of Europe and the US in terms of overall tax burden, but still taxes less than pretty much any developed European country besides Switzerland (and Ireland, but Irish GDP is a warped figure). Mexico taxes significantly less than the US does, the US is closer to other Anglosphere countries than it is to Mexico. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ta...
- scotty79 4y ago
  Licence to create money needed for loans that government awards banks is the ultimate handout.
ibejoeb 4y ago
What's the control for this, though? We're talking about a conjecture that there is a non-specific, undetectable condition affecting millions of people to the point that they are unable to work. Who pays for UBI if anyone can claim it?
- wk_end 4y ago
  The basic idea of UBI is that everyone claims it. That's why it's universal!
  - dmonitor 4y ago
    but what happens when the ratio of “producers” vs “non-producers” reaches a point where producers can’t produce enough to meet everyone’s needs?
  - ibejoeb 4y ago
    I clarified the "claim" elsewhere in this thread, but since this position is on the table now: I have no qualms helping to provide for people who need providing. So let's just suppose we do that with UBI. Now, UBI needs to be funded by someone. If you are funding UBI, what is the purpose of giving you back that money?
    - kcplate 4y ago
      This is the left side argument against UBI—“remove the U” (not everyone needs it). The right side argument is with the “BI” (just get a job you fuckin slob). This is why UBI efforts will ultimately fail—they both fundamentally oppose crucial aspects of the concept for completely different reasons.
- hnuser123456 4y ago
  I am constantly coughing up several fluid ounces of clear phlegm daily. I have to clear my throat with disgusting noises for at least a couple hours per day, ideally for at least 5 minutes once per hour, just to feel like I'm not drowning. I could take a picture of the puddles of phlegm daily to prove it. I've already seen a few doctors and none of them can tell exactly what it is, nor have any suggested treatments helped. Personally, I have found that using a toothbrush to brush the back of my tongue to induce a gag reflex to induce a major, choking, heaving coughing fit where it feels like my lungs are turning inside out, reduces the sensation of drowning but does not slow down fluid production. Obviously, having do to this would be very awkward in an office environment, and overall it's just extremely depressing that I'm crippled like this when I'm otherwise a very healthy 30 year old. Been living with this for 2 years and keeping my job but I'm sure everyone talks about how annoying my constant coughing is, nevermind the unlucky people who hear me clearing my throat or catch me spitting up puddles in the office parking lot.
nostromo 4y ago
Our Covid response really hurt the case for UBI. It turns out, when people are paid to stay at home and not work, even for a short period of time, we get high inflation and product shortages.
- flandish 4y ago
  The product shortages are due to piss poor profit centric “just in time” inventory schemes. Corporations failing are always corporations fault. This marketing that redirects blame onto “inflation”(a gov failure) or “people being at home” or “shortages” only serves to distract while corporations post profits, layoff while kicking back to shareholders, and continue to pay as little as possible for the labor.
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago
  Which is frustrating. Being paid to not work is just as conditional as being paid to work. People are incentivized to meet the condition. Paying them to not work means they are incentivized to not work!
- digdugdirk 4y ago
  Very little of the product shortages (and subsequent inflation) came from people staying home. The vast majority came from global supply chain disruptions. (Which I guess is still technically people staying home, but its a bit different if you're being forcibly locked in your apartment in China vs what the "lockdown" was in the US)
- mikewarot 4y ago
  We had supply shortages because all the slack has been taken out of systems to "improve efficiency", which was an entirely predictable, but accepted trade-off of those decisions. High inflation isn't the fault of people barely scraping by, its a reaction to supply disruptions worldwide. I expect 10% inflation for the next decade, because of demographic shifts and deglobalization, in the US. The rest of the world will be worse as capital flees to the US.
  - jwestbury 4y ago
fasthands9 4y ago
I'm pretty open to UBI but dont really see how that would be the case here. Let's say someone (who also has an illness like diabetes) has two children and isnt able to work for five years because of long covid. Will the UBI payments be high enough to support them and their children? Or would higher payments be needed to support for them? Would they get a different UBI as a single dude in his 40s? If so that's fine - but then it just seems like its welfare not UBI.
- neon_electro 4y ago
  UBI plus Medicare for All (not just Medicare for elders) is the way. "Welfare" beyond that can and should be discussed and considered - I'm not advocating for taking away any of the welfare state as a trade for implementing UBI, personally. Everyone receives it, everyone pays taxes accordingly, those with enough tax liability end up netting $0 or less in UBI for the period.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > UBI plus Medicare for All (not just Medicare for elders) is the way. Note that, given the actual structure of Medicare (partially publicly subsized private insurance with a public default and minimum-benefit option which still has premiums, part of which is waived for Social Security and Railroad Retirement beneficiaries), the ACA is almost Medicare for all, and with a default public option (even with premiums for most people) the “almost” would go away. (“Medicare for all” is sometimes used as a code for universal, premium-free, public-only insurance, but that’s not at all similar to Medicare.)
    - neon_electro 4y ago
      Thank you for clarifying, I support a universal, premium free, public insurance plan.
  - yucky 4y ago
    > I'm not advocating for taking away any of the welfare state as a trade for implementing UBI, personally. Interesting, since that is always it's main selling point. It's supposed to simplify the benefits programs since everyone just gets a check. Obviously that's naive, but it's the common refrain when discussing cost.
nradov 4y ago
We have Social Security disability payments available to those who are legitimately unable to work (I do recognize that it can be difficult for some people to navigate the application process). But I am absolutely unwilling to pay higher taxes into a UBI scheme to support people who are capable of working but choose not to.
- yboris 4y ago
  Higher taxes would be imposed progressively. Currently the most wealthy / highest income people on average pay the least as a % of their income. Furthermore: how about a wealth tax (maybe call it a "hoarding tax" to describe the behavior better).

by yboris 4y ago

It seems like if our society had UBI (Universal Basic Income) we wouldn't have to worry so much over cases like this - people would be able to get by, it wouldn't be a crisis for so many individuals.

r053bud 4y ago

Yup! But here in the USA it's all about profits baby!

qclibre22 4y ago

Everybody wants a government handout. Nobody wants to pay the taxes to fund it.

Kim_Bruning 4y ago
That's a fairly North American Continent point of view I think. Not everyone classifies government spending as a handout. Many countries have some sort of "Labour party" that tends to want to have high taxes, and over time such parties get plenty of votes.
- lokedhs 4y ago
  Is it? Or is is mainly US? My impression is that Canada is a much more like Europe in this respect, and Mexico doesn't seem aligned with this either?
  - rowanajmarshall 4y ago
    Canada is pretty much in the middle of Europe and the US in terms of overall tax burden, but still taxes less than pretty much any developed European country besides Switzerland (and Ireland, but Irish GDP is a warped figure). Mexico taxes significantly less than the US does, the US is closer to other Anglosphere countries than it is to Mexico. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ta...
scotty79 4y ago
Licence to create money needed for loans that government awards banks is the ultimate handout.

ibejoeb 4y ago

What's the control for this, though? We're talking about a conjecture that there is a non-specific, undetectable condition affecting millions of people to the point that they are unable to work. Who pays for UBI if anyone can claim it?

wk_end 4y ago
The basic idea of UBI is that everyone claims it. That's why it's universal!
- dmonitor 4y ago
  but what happens when the ratio of “producers” vs “non-producers” reaches a point where producers can’t produce enough to meet everyone’s needs?
- ibejoeb 4y ago
  I clarified the "claim" elsewhere in this thread, but since this position is on the table now: I have no qualms helping to provide for people who need providing. So let's just suppose we do that with UBI. Now, UBI needs to be funded by someone. If you are funding UBI, what is the purpose of giving you back that money?
  - kcplate 4y ago
    This is the left side argument against UBI—“remove the U” (not everyone needs it). The right side argument is with the “BI” (just get a job you fuckin slob). This is why UBI efforts will ultimately fail—they both fundamentally oppose crucial aspects of the concept for completely different reasons.
hnuser123456 4y ago
I am constantly coughing up several fluid ounces of clear phlegm daily. I have to clear my throat with disgusting noises for at least a couple hours per day, ideally for at least 5 minutes once per hour, just to feel like I'm not drowning. I could take a picture of the puddles of phlegm daily to prove it. I've already seen a few doctors and none of them can tell exactly what it is, nor have any suggested treatments helped. Personally, I have found that using a toothbrush to brush the back of my tongue to induce a gag reflex to induce a major, choking, heaving coughing fit where it feels like my lungs are turning inside out, reduces the sensation of drowning but does not slow down fluid production. Obviously, having do to this would be very awkward in an office environment, and overall it's just extremely depressing that I'm crippled like this when I'm otherwise a very healthy 30 year old. Been living with this for 2 years and keeping my job but I'm sure everyone talks about how annoying my constant coughing is, nevermind the unlucky people who hear me clearing my throat or catch me spitting up puddles in the office parking lot.

nostromo 4y ago

Our Covid response really hurt the case for UBI. It turns out, when people are paid to stay at home and not work, even for a short period of time, we get high inflation and product shortages.

flandish 4y ago
The product shortages are due to piss poor profit centric “just in time” inventory schemes. Corporations failing are always corporations fault. This marketing that redirects blame onto “inflation”(a gov failure) or “people being at home” or “shortages” only serves to distract while corporations post profits, layoff while kicking back to shareholders, and continue to pay as little as possible for the labor.
Kim_Bruning 4y ago
Which is frustrating. Being paid to not work is just as conditional as being paid to work. People are incentivized to meet the condition. Paying them to not work means they are incentivized to not work!
digdugdirk 4y ago
Very little of the product shortages (and subsequent inflation) came from people staying home. The vast majority came from global supply chain disruptions. (Which I guess is still technically people staying home, but its a bit different if you're being forcibly locked in your apartment in China vs what the "lockdown" was in the US)
mikewarot 4y ago
We had supply shortages because all the slack has been taken out of systems to "improve efficiency", which was an entirely predictable, but accepted trade-off of those decisions. High inflation isn't the fault of people barely scraping by, its a reaction to supply disruptions worldwide. I expect 10% inflation for the next decade, because of demographic shifts and deglobalization, in the US. The rest of the world will be worse as capital flees to the US.
- jwestbury 4y ago

fasthands9 4y ago

I'm pretty open to UBI but dont really see how that would be the case here. Let's say someone (who also has an illness like diabetes) has two children and isnt able to work for five years because of long covid. Will the UBI payments be high enough to support them and their children? Or would higher payments be needed to support for them? Would they get a different UBI as a single dude in his 40s? If so that's fine - but then it just seems like its welfare not UBI.

neon_electro 4y ago
UBI plus Medicare for All (not just Medicare for elders) is the way. "Welfare" beyond that can and should be discussed and considered - I'm not advocating for taking away any of the welfare state as a trade for implementing UBI, personally. Everyone receives it, everyone pays taxes accordingly, those with enough tax liability end up netting $0 or less in UBI for the period.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > UBI plus Medicare for All (not just Medicare for elders) is the way. Note that, given the actual structure of Medicare (partially publicly subsized private insurance with a public default and minimum-benefit option which still has premiums, part of which is waived for Social Security and Railroad Retirement beneficiaries), the ACA is almost Medicare for all, and with a default public option (even with premiums for most people) the “almost” would go away. (“Medicare for all” is sometimes used as a code for universal, premium-free, public-only insurance, but that’s not at all similar to Medicare.)
  - neon_electro 4y ago
    Thank you for clarifying, I support a universal, premium free, public insurance plan.
- yucky 4y ago
  > I'm not advocating for taking away any of the welfare state as a trade for implementing UBI, personally. Interesting, since that is always it's main selling point. It's supposed to simplify the benefits programs since everyone just gets a check. Obviously that's naive, but it's the common refrain when discussing cost.

nradov 4y ago

We have Social Security disability payments available to those who are legitimately unable to work (I do recognize that it can be difficult for some people to navigate the application process). But I am absolutely unwilling to pay higher taxes into a UBI scheme to support people who are capable of working but choose not to.

yboris 4y ago
Higher taxes would be imposed progressively. Currently the most wealthy / highest income people on average pay the least as a % of their income. Furthermore: how about a wealth tax (maybe call it a "hoarding tax" to describe the behavior better).