4 ms·

In a past life I got pretty deep into trying to help guys like this. There's a whole industry around it peddling advice that ranges from effective (yet impossi

In a past life I got pretty deep into trying to help guys like this. There's a whole industry around it peddling advice that ranges from effective (yet impossible to implement for a broken person) to counter-productive and evil. It's really very simple, but people just have massive amounts of negative programming that radiates out from them like a reverse pheromone. Those who are hungry do not eat. You can't fake it, but letting go of fear and just talking to strangers in public flirting spaces (bar, club, maybe target, NOT WORK OR FRIENDS) over and over again while making no effort to hide one's sexual interest will eventually give one the appearance of non-attachment to sexual outcomes. Having a conversation with any kind of sexual implications while maintaining a stance of non-attachment to sexual outcomes is my definition of flirting. The mindset (feel free to actually say this. it works): "I think we should do sexy stuff together because it would be fun for both of us, and I'm happy to tell you that because even if you say no, I hope I've flattered you and spoken my truth and that feels good."

ryandrake 4y ago
I'm glad I'm married and (hopefully forever) out of the game, because I can imagine it's even more difficult these days where harassment and creepiness is much more prominently on the radar. It can be a minefield. The difference between flirting (wanted attention) and creeping (unwanted attention) is entirely in the mind of the recipient. So you don't really know which one you've done until the recipient reacts either positively or negatively.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
weatherlite 4y ago
Might be simple but still unattainable to a huge swath of guys. It's like trying to tell someone not to freak out before a job interview - just go there, be yourself and don't care about the outcome. Let me know how well that worked out...
- nkingsy 4y ago
  Correct. If I had a cure I might still be doing it. Like I said, some people are broken. What I've described is more fundamental. It probably will be of more assistance to people doing okay with some hangups than people whose self esteem is not in a place where flirting can be an uplifting activity. Edit: -Therapy -Dance classes (not for flirting, just having positive touch experiences)
  - avmich 4y ago
    What kind of therapy? Dance classes could be still a downlifting experience but yes, could still be beneficial, even though not by much. Some numbing could be achieved, when after downfall one reaches a plato where for some range of input conditions the output doesn't worsen.
    - nkingsy 4y ago
      I meant talk therapy. Therapy is tough because a good therapist is probably very expensive, and might be a major expense for someone. Cheaper options would be trauma or addiction groups if those fit. A lot of people have just horrible “truths” they absorbed from their upbringing that need to be deprogrammed. Framing this as a parental trauma and working through it in a group setting could be useful. Some people have had success with MDMA or psilocybin
- sangnoir 4y ago
  The trick is to not be desperate for the job, and to schedule as many job interviews as humanly possible until it's just a thing you do[1]. Most people don't feel great after each rejection and so are not willing to put in the work. 1. The same strategy applies to public speaking, or product demos, or chairing a meeting, or systems design for people who feel they are not good at it. The human mind is incredibly adaptable and has great capacity for learning when exposed to new environments. The only exception is if the person has some kind of trauma or psychological wall and exposure harms them - in that case, I recommend talking to a professional first.
LorenPechtel 4y ago
Increasing numbers of people don't drink--which rules out bars. And you seem to be suggesting actions with a hookup as the desired objective--not of much use for those who desire a relationship rather than a hookup. By "club" do you mean hobby type things? It's perennial advice but it has the serious flaw that to a large degree you encounter the same people over and over, most of whom are too young/too old/not available. I'm married so I'm not looking but as a game I have paid attention to the suitability of those I get to know--and the number of relationship prospects approximates zero.
- nkingsy 4y ago
  It is general advice. Even if you're taking it slowly, you need to somehow let the person you are interested in know that they will enjoy hooking up with you someday, or they won't stick around to wait for you. Edit: I still need to emphasize the public element. Don’t let your co-workers and friends know you’re into them (at least don’t blame me if you do)
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "Increasing numbers of people don't drink--which rules out bars." It is possible to not drink alcohol at a bar and still have fun, but I also never liked bars to meet people. And "clubs", no he did not meant a "hobby thing", but a place where you can dance and enjoy music. Dancing is a very old way of hooking up. Back in time it was the village dance, where the young people got close. And this still works, either in formal settings like a dance studio - or free style on a dance floor. Dancing is body language and you can signal to other people, whether you are interested, or not. And then you get close, or apart.
zozbot234 4y ago
Just understanding what many women are generally attracted to is a huge differentiator, worth quite a few points on the conventional attractiveness scale. If you're reading this, you probably come across to others as nice and inoffensive, which is actually a very good thing! But you do generally need to show off a little bit of a "wilder" side that's been properly tamed and made harmless, in a way that she can intuit. It's a big component of flirting of any sort.
hutzlibu 4y ago
"while making no effort to hide one's sexual interest" This is tricky, but key. If you hide your interest, you will most likely act weird. And yes, rejection is part of the game and no problem. Unless of course - like you say - one is already broken. Then a simple rejection can be devastating of the remaining confidence. Flirting is a game, but some never learned how to play. I also learned it quite late and remember the awkward teenage years and feel sorry for those who never got the chance. And nowdays it even seems harder.
- avmich 4y ago
  > Flirting is a game, but some never learned how to play That would mean it's not very natural, which could be doubtful. However the quality of play could vary, with corresponding outcomes.
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    It is natural, the same way walking is natural. But you still have to learn it and not becpme crippled in a socially traumatising accident.

ryandrake 4y ago

I'm glad I'm married and (hopefully forever) out of the game, because I can imagine it's even more difficult these days where harassment and creepiness is much more prominently on the radar. It can be a minefield. The difference between flirting (wanted attention) and creeping (unwanted attention) is entirely in the mind of the recipient. So you don't really know which one you've done until the recipient reacts either positively or negatively.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

weatherlite 4y ago

Might be simple but still unattainable to a huge swath of guys. It's like trying to tell someone not to freak out before a job interview - just go there, be yourself and don't care about the outcome. Let me know how well that worked out...

nkingsy 4y ago
Correct. If I had a cure I might still be doing it. Like I said, some people are broken. What I've described is more fundamental. It probably will be of more assistance to people doing okay with some hangups than people whose self esteem is not in a place where flirting can be an uplifting activity. Edit: -Therapy -Dance classes (not for flirting, just having positive touch experiences)
- avmich 4y ago
  What kind of therapy? Dance classes could be still a downlifting experience but yes, could still be beneficial, even though not by much. Some numbing could be achieved, when after downfall one reaches a plato where for some range of input conditions the output doesn't worsen.
  - nkingsy 4y ago
    I meant talk therapy. Therapy is tough because a good therapist is probably very expensive, and might be a major expense for someone. Cheaper options would be trauma or addiction groups if those fit. A lot of people have just horrible “truths” they absorbed from their upbringing that need to be deprogrammed. Framing this as a parental trauma and working through it in a group setting could be useful. Some people have had success with MDMA or psilocybin
sangnoir 4y ago
The trick is to not be desperate for the job, and to schedule as many job interviews as humanly possible until it's just a thing you do[1]. Most people don't feel great after each rejection and so are not willing to put in the work. 1. The same strategy applies to public speaking, or product demos, or chairing a meeting, or systems design for people who feel they are not good at it. The human mind is incredibly adaptable and has great capacity for learning when exposed to new environments. The only exception is if the person has some kind of trauma or psychological wall and exposure harms them - in that case, I recommend talking to a professional first.

LorenPechtel 4y ago

Increasing numbers of people don't drink--which rules out bars. And you seem to be suggesting actions with a hookup as the desired objective--not of much use for those who desire a relationship rather than a hookup. By "club" do you mean hobby type things? It's perennial advice but it has the serious flaw that to a large degree you encounter the same people over and over, most of whom are too young/too old/not available. I'm married so I'm not looking but as a game I have paid attention to the suitability of those I get to know--and the number of relationship prospects approximates zero.

nkingsy 4y ago
It is general advice. Even if you're taking it slowly, you need to somehow let the person you are interested in know that they will enjoy hooking up with you someday, or they won't stick around to wait for you. Edit: I still need to emphasize the public element. Don’t let your co-workers and friends know you’re into them (at least don’t blame me if you do)
hutzlibu 4y ago
"Increasing numbers of people don't drink--which rules out bars." It is possible to not drink alcohol at a bar and still have fun, but I also never liked bars to meet people. And "clubs", no he did not meant a "hobby thing", but a place where you can dance and enjoy music. Dancing is a very old way of hooking up. Back in time it was the village dance, where the young people got close. And this still works, either in formal settings like a dance studio - or free style on a dance floor. Dancing is body language and you can signal to other people, whether you are interested, or not. And then you get close, or apart.

zozbot234 4y ago

Just understanding what many women are generally attracted to is a huge differentiator, worth quite a few points on the conventional attractiveness scale. If you're reading this, you probably come across to others as nice and inoffensive, which is actually a very good thing! But you do generally need to show off a little bit of a "wilder" side that's been properly tamed and made harmless, in a way that she can intuit. It's a big component of flirting of any sort.

hutzlibu 4y ago

"while making no effort to hide one's sexual interest" This is tricky, but key. If you hide your interest, you will most likely act weird. And yes, rejection is part of the game and no problem. Unless of course - like you say - one is already broken. Then a simple rejection can be devastating of the remaining confidence. Flirting is a game, but some never learned how to play. I also learned it quite late and remember the awkward teenage years and feel sorry for those who never got the chance. And nowdays it even seems harder.

avmich 4y ago
> Flirting is a game, but some never learned how to play That would mean it's not very natural, which could be doubtful. However the quality of play could vary, with corresponding outcomes.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  It is natural, the same way walking is natural. But you still have to learn it and not becpme crippled in a socially traumatising accident.