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I've been running online communities for years and this, as far as I can see, factual. I've read somewhere, maybe multiple times, that most men are emotionally

I've been running online communities for years and this, as far as I can see, factual. I've read somewhere, maybe multiple times, that most men are emotionally and sexually deprived. That sounds correct given the data I have. I'm ok looking and I feel like I can make women like me. I still struggle sometimes. Many of my friends do much worse than me. I have friends that I find intellectually stimulating, average-looking, that have not been touched by a woman in years. We don't talk too much about this but it's clear to me that it hurts them a lot, because it's not only about feeling desired, self-steem, or they can't fullfill their sexual desires. It's that they don't have those moments of intimacy that you have with members of the oposite sex, when you're naked or just cuddling. The only advice I've told them is to get out of any online stuff and hit bars. But they're in their 30s, their self-steem is already pretty low, and when I bring em somewhere it's pretty difficult to get it running. The times we've been around women, they get tired after a while and just want to grab me and go somewhere else. The've had GFs and hookups from time to time (meaning maybe about 2 years), and from my POV the've been treated pretty badly. IDK what to say, but I try to not think about it too much because it makes me sad.

cmh89 4y ago
It's interesting to me. I have female friends in their 30s who go on tons of dates but reject pretty much all of them for any long-term relationship. The ones they seem to be in to tend to reject them after a couple of dates. I'm not there in those interactions but I wonder how much of it is a mismatch between what you desire in a relationship and who you are attracted to in a person.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Or how much the "game" influences it. People tend to want what they can't have and reject things that come too easy.
  - avmich 4y ago
    I'd agree, but the important word here is "tend". It's definitely not a universal statement.
- Levitz 4y ago
  >It's interesting to me. I have female friends in their 30s who go on tons of dates but reject pretty much all of them for any long-term relationship. The ones they seem to be in to tend to reject them after a couple of dates. This is simply the other side of the coin, "online dating divides people heavily into winners and losers" What is happening is that in the same way most women get more attention than most men, the few men who do get attention get to pick and choose because all of the women are going for them.
  - red_trumpet 4y ago
    I don't understand how this is a stable situation. If women have to compete so much, wouldn't it be better for them to lower expectations?
    - mathematicaster 4y ago
      Tricky. In an environment where it takes time to collect information about competitiveness, updating of expectations is slow (and costly, because it is hard to be rational about this), there is a lot of randomness, and one's own competitiveness might be typically decreasing ... the slope of the expectation update might be not steep enough.
    - PaulHoule 4y ago
      Yes. But it takes time. Most importantly, women lose their ability to have children earlier than men but in their early 20s many of them are busy with other things and think they have a lot of time. They get less desirable as time goes by so when they decide to ‘get serious’ at 35 it is already getting late
      - 1659447091 4y ago
        If this is the case then it would seem an easy problem to solve as men looking for relationships and not getting any responses should only have to message those 35 and older.
        4y ago
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  How late into their 30s? Do they want kids?
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "what you desire in a relationship and who you are attracted to in a person. " What the head wants and what the heart wants ... I am not sure, if this is a new thing, but there quite some social norms and expectations, that are impossible to fullfill (for both sides), creating unfulfillment and then drama. I cannot say, that I know many happy couples. I met some and trying to work on my relationship, but it is really, really hard. Much harder, than I thought it is supposed to be.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  That's because 80% of the women are chasing 20% of the men. Okcupids data showed this in nice clear charts. The numbers invert as you get closer to 40. Single women at 40 are desperate, single men at 40 have a jaded, and quite accurate, view of the majority of women.
  - mancerayder 4y ago
    It's really easy for them to do that with the massive quantity of men to choose from. It's a kid in a candy store. They (women friends and dates I spoke to in this big city) tend to whine about bad dates and 'I want to delete this app' but it's what happens when you get 10 matches per day and you have to quickly select who to give a chance. Then they meet someone, it's hard to drop everything if there's still more matches you haven't met yet. Online dating is the death of our species.
- metalliqaz 4y ago
  "If you want love, lower your expectations a few, because Prince Charming would never settle for you."
- User23 4y ago
  Many women struggle with how the set of men that are willing to have sex with them is a much larger set than that of men who are willing to commit to them. The size of the set intersection thereof declines precipitously as women age too.
  - avmich 4y ago
    It's kinda curious that women emphasize commitability as a desirable trait, yet they agree and understand that commits could and should be a rare thing. What about that majority of cases when a woman doesn't want a commit? People grow to sexual age in 18 and can be not committed until much later, so in between they can/should/want to have less consequential encounters, right? So what about that majority of cases, do women still struggle when they are in the same situation - when they would have sex but unwilling to commit?
    - bmn__ 4y ago
      > People grow to sexual age in 18 Sorry for going off on a tangent, but I think this needs correction. By that age, puberty is already over. For girls, onset of puberty is 10, reproductive maturity is 14. It could be that you mean something else, namely a related social/legal construct, but that does not seem likely to me because of the word "grow".
      - metalliqaz 4y ago
        yeah 18 has more to do with the experience and emotional maturity necessary to navigate the society we've built than it does with biological maturity. Our private parts are ready to go long before our 18th birthday, which is obvious from the ultra hormone shot that high-schoolers get. On the other hand, full cognitive maturity isn't complete until long after that birthday. It seems almost like the line at 18 is purely for practical reasons around the need for workers than it is due to any scientific understanding of the way humans work.
darkwater 4y ago
> I'm ok looking and I feel like I can make women like me. I still struggle sometimes. Many of my friends do much worse than me. I have friends that I find intellectually stimulating, average-looking, that have not been touched by a woman in years. While I think that globally the sentiment about this is true (market is driven by women), I also had many average-looking, intellectually stimulating male friends that said "that girl is too ugly".
- avmich 4y ago
  > I also had many average-looking, intellectually stimulating male friends that said "that girl is too ugly". That however doesn't mean that male friends would rule out going with said girl. There's the "wisdom" which summarizes the idea that there are no ugly women. It's in other words the same idea as above - for vast majority of women men would still go with them.
- godelski 4y ago
  I've fallen for plenty of women who I was not initially sexually attracted to but as I spent more time with them they became so. Not because they looked any different, but because emotional bonds formed. So called "inner beauty." I'm confident this is an extremely common experience for men and women alike. The issue is that this will never happen through a dating app.
  - EricDeb 4y ago
    very good point I think that is lost in the modern dating economy
giantg2 4y ago
"I have friends that I find intellectually stimulating, average-looking, that have not been touched by a woman in years." I have a friends like this. One solution a couple of them have found is dating internationally. Not via "mail-order" services though. It was sort of a situation where they had a domestic friend who had friends or relatives abroad who were looking for a US marriage. So there was some trust there, and it was set up sort of like an arranged marriage. A lot of people hate on arraigned marriages, but the older I get, the more they make sense.
- dzonga 4y ago
  yeah internationally traveling to date I encourage it. even if it's just for short term flings. a lot of average guys tend to get overlooked with online dating, and don't have the cojones to approach their local women. whereas if it's international - you become interesting - just by being someone a woman doesn't interact with on a daily basis i.e you not the local loser. so chances of her fucking you for the "wow" factor are higher than if you were a local. of course don't go there trying to find love
- GrigoriyMikh 4y ago
  The international dating absolutely ruins dating for local guys. Look into Eastern Europe or even better, Thailand. Also, is it really long term solution to loneliness? If only motivation for marriage was to get the attractive citezenship, what will hold the marriage after it's done? Anecdotally, internet is full of stories of "mail-brides", who divorce the men and take a sweet part of his assets with it.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    There are prenups, which I believe would be wise for any couple to create (together), and especially important in this type of arrangement. As I said, this isn't through a mail order service. This is via friends of friends. The marriage would not just be for citizenship. Just like the arranged marriages I mentioned, there would be an element of matchmaking via the intermediary (the mutual friend in this case, or the two families in a traditional arrangement) that has a true belief that the two people would get along well together and share similar values. Then you would have visits and such to see how you liked the other person. But yes, I see how that can create problems in specific locales. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how the problem can be solved universally.
gorilla0 4y ago
For most of my life, I have been one of those guys who were like your friends. The point about intimacy hit hard - I have never seen such a simple point expressed so beautifully.
ajross 4y ago
> I'm ok looking and I feel like I can make women like me. So, I promise I'm not just picking on the phrasing (though yeah, the phrasing is pretty bad). I find it amazing that you went through that whole discussion about the perspective of your seemingly-hetero-male-only social environment without once recognizing that intimacy is a two-way transaction and that the other party needs to get something in return. Everyone, including women, wants a satisfying relationship. And most people aren't getting one at any given moment. And it doesn't seem like any part of your calculus is how to square those perspectives? Your whole comment is about women in some sense, but the only time their perspective even enters the discussion is in one sentence where you talk about compelling them to like you out of physical desire? And you don't think this might be part of the reason your negotiations are failing? Sales people don't try to close a deal without getting to know the customer first. Why do you think it should work any different here?
- mellosouls 4y ago
  You seem to be missing the point that has been made many times here that these studies and reports are demonstrating that a significant number of ordinary men are not even getting to the point they can negotiate a "transaction". The imbalance since the onset of online dating is huge and it and its dismissal with implied equivalence on each side is a real problem for society.
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    Even with that imbalance what the OP said is entirely correct. You can't dismiss the feelings of the other partner in a potential romantic relationship and view it as transactional. If someone does it's probably a large part of why they have issues finding one. Even beyond the initial ability to actually speak to someone of the opposite sex.
  - ajross 4y ago
    > The imbalance is huge This is overstating the case. This can all be measured. Statistics like median number of partners, age at marriage, etc... are indeed all trending downward and growing more asymmetric between men and women. The linked article cites a few studies like this. But it's not a "huge" effect. This is a meme, created largely by feedback communities like the incel folks. Note, FWIW, the Betteridge question mark in the title of the linked paper. Contra everyone's assumptions here, it does not seem to be presenting solid evidence for a "public health problem".
rightbyte 4y ago
> The only advice I've told them is to get out of any online stuff and hit bars. They need your wife to bring her single friends to the bar. If they have a hard time reaching out to women hitting bars without friends won't help them much.
- k0k0r0 4y ago
  I second this.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- the_only_law 4y ago
  For some reason at the bar people don’t ever talk to me until I’ve been drinking for so long I sound like an idiot.
  - avmich 4y ago
    Seconded. And going to a bar with the goal of finding romantic partners makes you sound particularly idiotic when you loosen up a bit. That's why many approaches here, which assume rational part, especially - importantly - at the moment of human-touchness, e.g. when you're actually communicating with potential partners, can fail dramatically. Imagine you'd drink enough and start broadcasting a little your ideas which brought you - especially if you're a nerd - to the bar. You're going to have spectacular, epic what-they-say. And if you don't loosen up, you're perceived as incincere, somebody who's hiding something, likely nasty, behind them and trying to catch strangers in who knows which schemes.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Practice sounding like an idiot while sober! ;)
  - jareklupinski 4y ago
    intelligence can be intimidating; overbearing intelligence is almost a turn-off maybe people are just waiting until you're down on their level
efa 4y ago
Aren't bars similar to dating sites? A forum for men to compete with other men for women. I would think they'd have better luck with group activities (rec sports, craft/hobby stuff) or online groups devoted to something (restaurant enthusiasts, etc).
- astura 4y ago
  Nightclubs, yeah, most bars aren't nightclubs though. Bars are a fairly decent place for low stakes socialization, at the very least. In person dynamics are just different - I met my husband in a bar. At the time neither of us were looking to date anyone for various reasons but we happened to get chatting and our chemistry was immediately apparent. If he were exactly the same person but I first "met" him as a dating profile on the screen I almost certainly would have passed.
  - Der_Einzige 4y ago
    In regular bars it's downright rude to walk up to most groups if you're not in that group, and good luck finding a single woman drinking by herself. In night clubs? Better hope you've hit the gym for the last month...
    - nkingsy 4y ago
      Groups could be drinking at someone's house. They're paying money and arranging transportation to be doing their group drinking in public. It's rude not to engage with them.
      - mikhael28 4y ago
        hahaha you are a funny guy, makes sense to me.
- m_dupont 4y ago
  Yes, but the crucial difference is that online you're competing with everyone else in your city, in a bar you're only competing with the other guys in the bar. There's a strong winner-takes-all effect online
ocdtrekkie 4y ago
Let me recommend how I met my wife: Reddit! I posted, not on the main /r4r which moves quickly, but a more niche one. The fact that I posted is key: Women on Reddit are inundated with tons of PMs when they post. However, there are a ton of both men and women who browse those subreddits but do not post themselves. And unlike a dating app, which is both algorithmically driven and focused on attractiveness, Reddit provies you a textbox with which you can differentiate yourself in whatever way makes you you.
nkingsy 4y ago
In a past life I got pretty deep into trying to help guys like this. There's a whole industry around it peddling advice that ranges from effective (yet impossible to implement for a broken person) to counter-productive and evil. It's really very simple, but people just have massive amounts of negative programming that radiates out from them like a reverse pheromone. Those who are hungry do not eat. You can't fake it, but letting go of fear and just talking to strangers in public flirting spaces (bar, club, maybe target, NOT WORK OR FRIENDS) over and over again while making no effort to hide one's sexual interest will eventually give one the appearance of non-attachment to sexual outcomes. Having a conversation with any kind of sexual implications while maintaining a stance of non-attachment to sexual outcomes is my definition of flirting. The mindset (feel free to actually say this. it works): "I think we should do sexy stuff together because it would be fun for both of us, and I'm happy to tell you that because even if you say no, I hope I've flattered you and spoken my truth and that feels good."
- ryandrake 4y ago
  I'm glad I'm married and (hopefully forever) out of the game, because I can imagine it's even more difficult these days where harassment and creepiness is much more prominently on the radar. It can be a minefield. The difference between flirting (wanted attention) and creeping (unwanted attention) is entirely in the mind of the recipient. So you don't really know which one you've done until the recipient reacts either positively or negatively.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- weatherlite 4y ago
  Might be simple but still unattainable to a huge swath of guys. It's like trying to tell someone not to freak out before a job interview - just go there, be yourself and don't care about the outcome. Let me know how well that worked out...
  - nkingsy 4y ago
    Correct. If I had a cure I might still be doing it. Like I said, some people are broken. What I've described is more fundamental. It probably will be of more assistance to people doing okay with some hangups than people whose self esteem is not in a place where flirting can be an uplifting activity. Edit: -Therapy -Dance classes (not for flirting, just having positive touch experiences)
OhNoNotAgain_99 4y ago
Without or with it leads to all kind of emotional problems. So to be alone isnt that bad. And relations are not always about sex, the most stable relations are based upon understanding and care friendship. Sure sex is something but after the kids do people still want to live like rabbits, well there much more in life than sex. The media might make you think peole have sex every day or so, thats bullshit some relations are not based on sex at all but are by all means perfect relastions. (some people dont enjoy sex, or because of medical reasons). If you want a happy life enjoy other peoples smile, go to places where people smile, enjoy your life yourself visit places. There is no perfect face or figure. And stay away from people who build their life on consumables as drugs or alcoholics a its reciepe for disaster. Dont try to search for it, not online either, accidents just happen ;)
- avmich 4y ago
  > Dont try to search for it, not online either, accidents just happen ;) I would definitely recommend a more active approach. Time goes by, and can come to an end unfortunately.
ska 4y ago
> and when I bring em somewhere it's pretty difficult to get it running How much time do these friends spend in social situations with women where the goal isn't to get laid/find a girlfriend? I don't know your friends, but have known people in similar situations. In all those cases, their were others in our social circles who looked worse "on paper" but had no real difficulties here - it wasn't really about attractiveness or intelligence, but about behavior and/or expectations.
- avmich 4y ago
  > How much time do these friends spend in social situations with women where the goal isn't to get laid/find a girlfriend? Sometimes it's all available time. Which could be really small or none at all. Behavior could be significantly affected by proximity with women, when you're in certain age and experience. It's described in the literature, for here it could be said a social - social - situation with women where the goal isn't to get laid/find a girlfriend - and where such goal doesn't quickly appear and supersedes whatever other goals there were - could be rare to find.
  - ska 4y ago
    It shouldn’t be rare though (assuming US cultural norms). If it is, that might be a big part of the root problem.
    - avmich 4y ago
      What norms have to do with this? Imagine that whenever a man is in proximity of women it's like a loud signal which doesn't go away, and he needs to concentrate on anything else to avoid following the noise. It's irrelevant which cultural norms are around.
      - ska 4y ago
        Cultural norm meaning it is normal to be in social contexts with mixed groups of genders without it being primarily sexual, and generally expected of people. There are countries and cultures where this is not true, which makes mixed gender interactions different. > Imagine that whenever a man is in proximity of women it's like a loud signal which doesn't go away, This is not normal, and may point to deeper problems.
deleted 4y ago
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helge9210 4y ago
> The only advice I've told them is to get out of any online stuff and hit bars. It took me a while to understand, that "bars" here do not correspond to "outdoor exercise equipment". > that most men are emotionally and sexually deprived. Recently I saw Mozart's "The Magic Flute" for the first time. Papageno character heavily resonates with this observation. So, the problem is not new.
alexvoda 4y ago
> It's that they don't have those moments of intimacy that you have with members of the oposite sex, when you're naked or just cuddling. I have not read the paper yet so I don't know if this idea was captured but I agree the issue is not only about the sex, it's also (maybe even moreso) about intimacy and connection. I wonder to what degree this is an issue brought on by a higher level of education and awareness. I mean there are plenty of loveless marriages and I expect the further in the past you go the more common this was. I can not imagine that at the time when marriages were usually arranged, mostly for economic reasons, there was much love unless they were lucky. There was also just so much inequality contributing to this. I can believe many people were not aware better was possible. Have people become aware that relationships can be more and now find it impossible to settle for less? Edit, just to make it clear, is not necessarily a bad thing. Changing the expectation about what a relationship should be towards one where more things are valued is a good thing. It does however mean we are suffering the consequences of being in the transition period between two value systems.
lechacker 4y ago
Being inexperienced in your 30s as a man is game over. Sorry to put it bluntly but for those guys there isn't a path that leads to a relationship or real intimacy of any kind.
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  This is completely false. I remained "inexperienced" into my thirties, and am now happily married.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
>> I've told them is to get out of any online stuff and hit bars Unfortunately, women that frequent bars are very likely to be alcoholics.
DonHopkins 4y ago
>I'm ok looking and I feel like I can make women like me. The only person who should "make women like me" is a female lesbian Doctor Frankenstein. Anyone else has to make themselves likable to women. The only person you should make do or be or like things is yourself. You can't force other people to like you, just because you feel like it.
- avmich 4y ago
  I think the active voice here is coloring the situation in the light where one has more confident position.
EricDeb 4y ago
I dont think most people realize how big a deal location is. Move to a big city in the north east (NYC is the best) and you will have better luck than the west coast or midwest. The numbers favor men in those locations.
- Qem 4y ago
  In what sense? Is the gender ratio skewed there?

cmh89 4y ago

It's interesting to me. I have female friends in their 30s who go on tons of dates but reject pretty much all of them for any long-term relationship. The ones they seem to be in to tend to reject them after a couple of dates. I'm not there in those interactions but I wonder how much of it is a mismatch between what you desire in a relationship and who you are attracted to in a person.

giantg2 4y ago
Or how much the "game" influences it. People tend to want what they can't have and reject things that come too easy.
- avmich 4y ago
  I'd agree, but the important word here is "tend". It's definitely not a universal statement.
Levitz 4y ago
>It's interesting to me. I have female friends in their 30s who go on tons of dates but reject pretty much all of them for any long-term relationship. The ones they seem to be in to tend to reject them after a couple of dates. This is simply the other side of the coin, "online dating divides people heavily into winners and losers" What is happening is that in the same way most women get more attention than most men, the few men who do get attention get to pick and choose because all of the women are going for them.
- red_trumpet 4y ago
  I don't understand how this is a stable situation. If women have to compete so much, wouldn't it be better for them to lower expectations?
  - mathematicaster 4y ago
    Tricky. In an environment where it takes time to collect information about competitiveness, updating of expectations is slow (and costly, because it is hard to be rational about this), there is a lot of randomness, and one's own competitiveness might be typically decreasing ... the slope of the expectation update might be not steep enough.
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    Yes. But it takes time. Most importantly, women lose their ability to have children earlier than men but in their early 20s many of them are busy with other things and think they have a lot of time. They get less desirable as time goes by so when they decide to ‘get serious’ at 35 it is already getting late
    - 1659447091 4y ago
      If this is the case then it would seem an easy problem to solve as men looking for relationships and not getting any responses should only have to message those 35 and older.
      - 4y ago
throwaway6734 4y ago
How late into their 30s? Do they want kids?
hutzlibu 4y ago
"what you desire in a relationship and who you are attracted to in a person. " What the head wants and what the heart wants ... I am not sure, if this is a new thing, but there quite some social norms and expectations, that are impossible to fullfill (for both sides), creating unfulfillment and then drama. I cannot say, that I know many happy couples. I met some and trying to work on my relationship, but it is really, really hard. Much harder, than I thought it is supposed to be.
lelanthran 4y ago
That's because 80% of the women are chasing 20% of the men. Okcupids data showed this in nice clear charts. The numbers invert as you get closer to 40. Single women at 40 are desperate, single men at 40 have a jaded, and quite accurate, view of the majority of women.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  It's really easy for them to do that with the massive quantity of men to choose from. It's a kid in a candy store. They (women friends and dates I spoke to in this big city) tend to whine about bad dates and 'I want to delete this app' but it's what happens when you get 10 matches per day and you have to quickly select who to give a chance. Then they meet someone, it's hard to drop everything if there's still more matches you haven't met yet. Online dating is the death of our species.
metalliqaz 4y ago
"If you want love, lower your expectations a few, because Prince Charming would never settle for you."
User23 4y ago
Many women struggle with how the set of men that are willing to have sex with them is a much larger set than that of men who are willing to commit to them. The size of the set intersection thereof declines precipitously as women age too.
- avmich 4y ago
  It's kinda curious that women emphasize commitability as a desirable trait, yet they agree and understand that commits could and should be a rare thing. What about that majority of cases when a woman doesn't want a commit? People grow to sexual age in 18 and can be not committed until much later, so in between they can/should/want to have less consequential encounters, right? So what about that majority of cases, do women still struggle when they are in the same situation - when they would have sex but unwilling to commit?
  - bmn__ 4y ago
    > People grow to sexual age in 18 Sorry for going off on a tangent, but I think this needs correction. By that age, puberty is already over. For girls, onset of puberty is 10, reproductive maturity is 14. It could be that you mean something else, namely a related social/legal construct, but that does not seem likely to me because of the word "grow".
    - metalliqaz 4y ago
      yeah 18 has more to do with the experience and emotional maturity necessary to navigate the society we've built than it does with biological maturity. Our private parts are ready to go long before our 18th birthday, which is obvious from the ultra hormone shot that high-schoolers get. On the other hand, full cognitive maturity isn't complete until long after that birthday. It seems almost like the line at 18 is purely for practical reasons around the need for workers than it is due to any scientific understanding of the way humans work.

darkwater 4y ago

> I'm ok looking and I feel like I can make women like me. I still struggle sometimes. Many of my friends do much worse than me. I have friends that I find intellectually stimulating, average-looking, that have not been touched by a woman in years. While I think that globally the sentiment about this is true (market is driven by women), I also had many average-looking, intellectually stimulating male friends that said "that girl is too ugly".

avmich 4y ago
> I also had many average-looking, intellectually stimulating male friends that said "that girl is too ugly". That however doesn't mean that male friends would rule out going with said girl. There's the "wisdom" which summarizes the idea that there are no ugly women. It's in other words the same idea as above - for vast majority of women men would still go with them.
godelski 4y ago
I've fallen for plenty of women who I was not initially sexually attracted to but as I spent more time with them they became so. Not because they looked any different, but because emotional bonds formed. So called "inner beauty." I'm confident this is an extremely common experience for men and women alike. The issue is that this will never happen through a dating app.
- EricDeb 4y ago
  very good point I think that is lost in the modern dating economy

giantg2 4y ago

"I have friends that I find intellectually stimulating, average-looking, that have not been touched by a woman in years." I have a friends like this. One solution a couple of them have found is dating internationally. Not via "mail-order" services though. It was sort of a situation where they had a domestic friend who had friends or relatives abroad who were looking for a US marriage. So there was some trust there, and it was set up sort of like an arranged marriage. A lot of people hate on arraigned marriages, but the older I get, the more they make sense.

dzonga 4y ago
yeah internationally traveling to date I encourage it. even if it's just for short term flings. a lot of average guys tend to get overlooked with online dating, and don't have the cojones to approach their local women. whereas if it's international - you become interesting - just by being someone a woman doesn't interact with on a daily basis i.e you not the local loser. so chances of her fucking you for the "wow" factor are higher than if you were a local. of course don't go there trying to find love
GrigoriyMikh 4y ago
The international dating absolutely ruins dating for local guys. Look into Eastern Europe or even better, Thailand. Also, is it really long term solution to loneliness? If only motivation for marriage was to get the attractive citezenship, what will hold the marriage after it's done? Anecdotally, internet is full of stories of "mail-brides", who divorce the men and take a sweet part of his assets with it.
- giantg2 4y ago
  There are prenups, which I believe would be wise for any couple to create (together), and especially important in this type of arrangement. As I said, this isn't through a mail order service. This is via friends of friends. The marriage would not just be for citizenship. Just like the arranged marriages I mentioned, there would be an element of matchmaking via the intermediary (the mutual friend in this case, or the two families in a traditional arrangement) that has a true belief that the two people would get along well together and share similar values. Then you would have visits and such to see how you liked the other person. But yes, I see how that can create problems in specific locales. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how the problem can be solved universally.

gorilla0 4y ago

For most of my life, I have been one of those guys who were like your friends. The point about intimacy hit hard - I have never seen such a simple point expressed so beautifully.

ajross 4y ago

> I'm ok looking and I feel like I can make women like me. So, I promise I'm not just picking on the phrasing (though yeah, the phrasing is pretty bad). I find it amazing that you went through that whole discussion about the perspective of your seemingly-hetero-male-only social environment without once recognizing that intimacy is a two-way transaction and that the other party needs to get something in return. Everyone, including women, wants a satisfying relationship. And most people aren't getting one at any given moment. And it doesn't seem like any part of your calculus is how to square those perspectives? Your whole comment is about women in some sense, but the only time their perspective even enters the discussion is in one sentence where you talk about compelling them to like you out of physical desire? And you don't think this might be part of the reason your negotiations are failing? Sales people don't try to close a deal without getting to know the customer first. Why do you think it should work any different here?

mellosouls 4y ago
You seem to be missing the point that has been made many times here that these studies and reports are demonstrating that a significant number of ordinary men are not even getting to the point they can negotiate a "transaction". The imbalance since the onset of online dating is huge and it and its dismissal with implied equivalence on each side is a real problem for society.
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  Even with that imbalance what the OP said is entirely correct. You can't dismiss the feelings of the other partner in a potential romantic relationship and view it as transactional. If someone does it's probably a large part of why they have issues finding one. Even beyond the initial ability to actually speak to someone of the opposite sex.
- ajross 4y ago
  > The imbalance is huge This is overstating the case. This can all be measured. Statistics like median number of partners, age at marriage, etc... are indeed all trending downward and growing more asymmetric between men and women. The linked article cites a few studies like this. But it's not a "huge" effect. This is a meme, created largely by feedback communities like the incel folks. Note, FWIW, the Betteridge question mark in the title of the linked paper. Contra everyone's assumptions here, it does not seem to be presenting solid evidence for a "public health problem".

rightbyte 4y ago

> The only advice I've told them is to get out of any online stuff and hit bars. They need your wife to bring her single friends to the bar. If they have a hard time reaching out to women hitting bars without friends won't help them much.

k0k0r0 4y ago
I second this.
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the_only_law 4y ago
For some reason at the bar people don’t ever talk to me until I’ve been drinking for so long I sound like an idiot.
- avmich 4y ago
  Seconded. And going to a bar with the goal of finding romantic partners makes you sound particularly idiotic when you loosen up a bit. That's why many approaches here, which assume rational part, especially - importantly - at the moment of human-touchness, e.g. when you're actually communicating with potential partners, can fail dramatically. Imagine you'd drink enough and start broadcasting a little your ideas which brought you - especially if you're a nerd - to the bar. You're going to have spectacular, epic what-they-say. And if you don't loosen up, you're perceived as incincere, somebody who's hiding something, likely nasty, behind them and trying to catch strangers in who knows which schemes.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Practice sounding like an idiot while sober! ;)
- jareklupinski 4y ago
  intelligence can be intimidating; overbearing intelligence is almost a turn-off maybe people are just waiting until you're down on their level

efa 4y ago

Aren't bars similar to dating sites? A forum for men to compete with other men for women. I would think they'd have better luck with group activities (rec sports, craft/hobby stuff) or online groups devoted to something (restaurant enthusiasts, etc).

astura 4y ago
Nightclubs, yeah, most bars aren't nightclubs though. Bars are a fairly decent place for low stakes socialization, at the very least. In person dynamics are just different - I met my husband in a bar. At the time neither of us were looking to date anyone for various reasons but we happened to get chatting and our chemistry was immediately apparent. If he were exactly the same person but I first "met" him as a dating profile on the screen I almost certainly would have passed.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  In regular bars it's downright rude to walk up to most groups if you're not in that group, and good luck finding a single woman drinking by herself. In night clubs? Better hope you've hit the gym for the last month...
  - nkingsy 4y ago
    Groups could be drinking at someone's house. They're paying money and arranging transportation to be doing their group drinking in public. It's rude not to engage with them.
    - mikhael28 4y ago
      hahaha you are a funny guy, makes sense to me.
m_dupont 4y ago
Yes, but the crucial difference is that online you're competing with everyone else in your city, in a bar you're only competing with the other guys in the bar. There's a strong winner-takes-all effect online

ocdtrekkie 4y ago

Let me recommend how I met my wife: Reddit! I posted, not on the main /r4r which moves quickly, but a more niche one. The fact that I posted is key: Women on Reddit are inundated with tons of PMs when they post. However, there are a ton of both men and women who browse those subreddits but do not post themselves. And unlike a dating app, which is both algorithmically driven and focused on attractiveness, Reddit provies you a textbox with which you can differentiate yourself in whatever way makes you you.

nkingsy 4y ago

In a past life I got pretty deep into trying to help guys like this. There's a whole industry around it peddling advice that ranges from effective (yet impossible to implement for a broken person) to counter-productive and evil. It's really very simple, but people just have massive amounts of negative programming that radiates out from them like a reverse pheromone. Those who are hungry do not eat. You can't fake it, but letting go of fear and just talking to strangers in public flirting spaces (bar, club, maybe target, NOT WORK OR FRIENDS) over and over again while making no effort to hide one's sexual interest will eventually give one the appearance of non-attachment to sexual outcomes. Having a conversation with any kind of sexual implications while maintaining a stance of non-attachment to sexual outcomes is my definition of flirting. The mindset (feel free to actually say this. it works): "I think we should do sexy stuff together because it would be fun for both of us, and I'm happy to tell you that because even if you say no, I hope I've flattered you and spoken my truth and that feels good."

ryandrake 4y ago
I'm glad I'm married and (hopefully forever) out of the game, because I can imagine it's even more difficult these days where harassment and creepiness is much more prominently on the radar. It can be a minefield. The difference between flirting (wanted attention) and creeping (unwanted attention) is entirely in the mind of the recipient. So you don't really know which one you've done until the recipient reacts either positively or negatively.
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weatherlite 4y ago
Might be simple but still unattainable to a huge swath of guys. It's like trying to tell someone not to freak out before a job interview - just go there, be yourself and don't care about the outcome. Let me know how well that worked out...
- nkingsy 4y ago
  Correct. If I had a cure I might still be doing it. Like I said, some people are broken. What I've described is more fundamental. It probably will be of more assistance to people doing okay with some hangups than people whose self esteem is not in a place where flirting can be an uplifting activity. Edit: -Therapy -Dance classes (not for flirting, just having positive touch experiences)

OhNoNotAgain_99 4y ago

Without or with it leads to all kind of emotional problems. So to be alone isnt that bad. And relations are not always about sex, the most stable relations are based upon understanding and care friendship. Sure sex is something but after the kids do people still want to live like rabbits, well there much more in life than sex. The media might make you think peole have sex every day or so, thats bullshit some relations are not based on sex at all but are by all means perfect relastions. (some people dont enjoy sex, or because of medical reasons). If you want a happy life enjoy other peoples smile, go to places where people smile, enjoy your life yourself visit places. There is no perfect face or figure. And stay away from people who build their life on consumables as drugs or alcoholics a its reciepe for disaster. Dont try to search for it, not online either, accidents just happen ;)

avmich 4y ago
> Dont try to search for it, not online either, accidents just happen ;) I would definitely recommend a more active approach. Time goes by, and can come to an end unfortunately.

ska 4y ago

> and when I bring em somewhere it's pretty difficult to get it running How much time do these friends spend in social situations with women where the goal isn't to get laid/find a girlfriend? I don't know your friends, but have known people in similar situations. In all those cases, their were others in our social circles who looked worse "on paper" but had no real difficulties here - it wasn't really about attractiveness or intelligence, but about behavior and/or expectations.

avmich 4y ago
> How much time do these friends spend in social situations with women where the goal isn't to get laid/find a girlfriend? Sometimes it's all available time. Which could be really small or none at all. Behavior could be significantly affected by proximity with women, when you're in certain age and experience. It's described in the literature, for here it could be said a social - social - situation with women where the goal isn't to get laid/find a girlfriend - and where such goal doesn't quickly appear and supersedes whatever other goals there were - could be rare to find.
- ska 4y ago
  It shouldn’t be rare though (assuming US cultural norms). If it is, that might be a big part of the root problem.
  - avmich 4y ago
    What norms have to do with this? Imagine that whenever a man is in proximity of women it's like a loud signal which doesn't go away, and he needs to concentrate on anything else to avoid following the noise. It's irrelevant which cultural norms are around.
    - ska 4y ago
      Cultural norm meaning it is normal to be in social contexts with mixed groups of genders without it being primarily sexual, and generally expected of people. There are countries and cultures where this is not true, which makes mixed gender interactions different. > Imagine that whenever a man is in proximity of women it's like a loud signal which doesn't go away, This is not normal, and may point to deeper problems.

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helge9210 4y ago

> The only advice I've told them is to get out of any online stuff and hit bars. It took me a while to understand, that "bars" here do not correspond to "outdoor exercise equipment". > that most men are emotionally and sexually deprived. Recently I saw Mozart's "The Magic Flute" for the first time. Papageno character heavily resonates with this observation. So, the problem is not new.

alexvoda 4y ago

> It's that they don't have those moments of intimacy that you have with members of the oposite sex, when you're naked or just cuddling. I have not read the paper yet so I don't know if this idea was captured but I agree the issue is not only about the sex, it's also (maybe even moreso) about intimacy and connection. I wonder to what degree this is an issue brought on by a higher level of education and awareness. I mean there are plenty of loveless marriages and I expect the further in the past you go the more common this was. I can not imagine that at the time when marriages were usually arranged, mostly for economic reasons, there was much love unless they were lucky. There was also just so much inequality contributing to this. I can believe many people were not aware better was possible. Have people become aware that relationships can be more and now find it impossible to settle for less? Edit, just to make it clear, is not necessarily a bad thing. Changing the expectation about what a relationship should be towards one where more things are valued is a good thing. It does however mean we are suffering the consequences of being in the transition period between two value systems.

lechacker 4y ago

Being inexperienced in your 30s as a man is game over. Sorry to put it bluntly but for those guys there isn't a path that leads to a relationship or real intimacy of any kind.

ocdtrekkie 4y ago
This is completely false. I remained "inexperienced" into my thirties, and am now happily married.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

>> I've told them is to get out of any online stuff and hit bars Unfortunately, women that frequent bars are very likely to be alcoholics.

DonHopkins 4y ago

>I'm ok looking and I feel like I can make women like me. The only person who should "make women like me" is a female lesbian Doctor Frankenstein. Anyone else has to make themselves likable to women. The only person you should make do or be or like things is yourself. You can't force other people to like you, just because you feel like it.

avmich 4y ago
I think the active voice here is coloring the situation in the light where one has more confident position.

EricDeb 4y ago

I dont think most people realize how big a deal location is. Move to a big city in the north east (NYC is the best) and you will have better luck than the west coast or midwest. The numbers favor men in those locations.

Qem 4y ago
In what sense? Is the gender ratio skewed there?