5 ms·

The cathedral that failed

73 points by acsillag 4y ago

pieterr 4y ago
I was expecting a discussion of [1]. [1] http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
- forgotpwd16 4y ago
  Me too but have to say I was pleasantly surprised. Non-tech articles such as these are nice to have.
Eleison23 4y ago
I visited a different sort of "Cathedral that failed". In Manresa, Catalonia there is a basilica named Santa Maria de la Seu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria,_Manresa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria,_Manresa My fiancée, acting as my native guide, informed me that Manresa was once in competition to be the seat of a bishopric, and this grand church had been constructed as part of that bid, perhaps in the 9th century or so. It is sort of like how nations build Olympic stadiums in hopes of attracting that sort of honor. Anyway, the bid did not succeed and the city remained within the jurisdiction of a more ancient see at Vic. https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisbat_de_Vic https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisbat_de_Vic Nevertheless, Santa Maria is a gorgeous sight, with flying buttresses and marvelous stonework. My impression from the visit is more of a tourist attraction and museum. We did not attend Mass at this location, if indeed it is held there. We did, however, attend Mass at the Sagrada Família. In fact, I attended Mass at two distinct Sagrada Família churches: there is one (slightly less grand scale) in Manresa too. Unfinished and unconsecrated as it had been in 2008, Mass was not yet celebrated at the main altar, so our liturgy was a rather intimate experience in the Catalan vernacular in a side-chapel. (Unfortunately, we did not have time to tour the whole thing. I should've liked to see the crypt, the breathtaking main interior, and ascend one of the towers.) We were also on a budget. When we arrived at the Cathedral of Santa Eulalia (there are a lot of cathedrals, basilicas and churches in my stories of Catalonia) we were confronted with an admission charge. The Catholic faithful and guests are not charged to attend the sacred liturgy, but tourists are charged to be lookie-loos in the off-hours, and since we ignored the schedule of Masses, we were lookie-loo tourists, and the very thought of needing to spend money offended my fiancée, who considers herself a faithful Catholic woman. I consoled her with a gift shop visit. While the Cathedral of Santa Eulalia is definitely a "finished work", you can see nearby an ancient Roman wall, which is of the type that were probably always under construction or subject to improvement by the occupying forces in Hispania.
sanedigital 4y ago
Great article, but I think its odd to call James I of Aragon's conquest of Mallorca a "Catalan conquest". Poor Aragon, always getting its history rewritten by Catalan separatists and those that sympathize with them.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Isn't the "Crusade of the Infants of Aragon" commonly known as the "Catalan Crusade" though? The Aragonese Crusade would refer to the events related to the War of the Sicilian Vespers. I'm no history experts though, so would be happy to be corrected, this is just my understanding of things.
- FlotaDeAragon 4y ago
  Those catalans want to steal the victory of the world renowned Fleet of Aragón By far the best fishermen of Spain
cousin_it 4y ago
Such sound architecture. Even when unfinished and without a roof, it's still beautiful and people want to be around it somehow, with plastic chairs and bonfires.
telesilla 4y ago
>It is not uncommon for Gothic cathedrals to be left unfinished Let's not forget the spectacular Sagrada Familia. It's worth so much, unfinished that I assume Paris will learn from this with the Notre Dame.
- capableweb 4y ago
  I don't think Sagrada Familia has been "left unfinished". It is still unfinished, yes, but construction continues, it hasn't stopped as far as I could tell last time I was in Barcelona.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  Sagrada Familia is not gothic though. It was born as a neo-gothic church but when Gaudì took over as the construction supervisor, he changed its style to liberty, giving birth to what is now known as Catalan modernism.
  - jasonjamerson 4y ago
    Yes, Art Nouveau, or "Liberty Style" in Italian, maybe also in Spanish?
- dendrite9 4y ago
  Are many buildings ever really finished? I don't think people go to the Sagrada Familia because it is under construction. In fact I think more visitors would prefer more access with less equipment around. 150 years isn't really that long for a cathedral, this good article starts with the fact that the Bristol Cathedral took nearly 700 years to finish! https://theprepared.org/features-feed/2019/4/28/building-a-cathedral https://theprepared.org/features-feed/2019/4/28/building-a-c...
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    I call them living buildings. Over the centuries they are remodeled and adapted countless times. Here's a famous example from my country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnenhof https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnenhof
japanman425 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
mmsimanga 4y ago
Came straight to the comments expecting breakdown of why a closed source application failed.
- herodoturtle 4y ago
  … which in turn sent me down a rabbit hole of researching what esr has been up to since his famous essay.
  - martincmartin 4y ago
    So what's he been up to?
    - skipkey 4y ago
      His blog has been down for a couple of years, I wondered what happened.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      9/11 conspiracy theories, climate denialism, white supremacy mostly.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- kweingar 4y ago
  Both cathedral and bazaar are models of developing open source software.
hinkley 4y ago
I visited London right after I read Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, and we ended up in a cathedral off Fleet Street (I was quite disappointed that my mental image from the books was a 20m wide open sewer and in fact the buildings today might only be 5m apart close to the Thames) which was designed by Christopher Wren after the London Fire. I don't recall the name, I'm sure someone here who knows London can work it out from my description, but you could go up into the dome and I remarked to myself that the fall to the marble floor from the highest opening in the dome could easily kill a man. I've probably repeated this story here half a dozen times now, but in the background information posted at the church it said that he had so many people wanting to commission him for building their church yesterday that he built them without bell towers with an agreement that once everyone was back in business, he'd come back around and build the towers on. Seeing how complex those domes were, I'm not quite clear why adding a tower later was a substantial savings in time and effort but that's the story.
- pjc50 4y ago
  A Cathedral? Off Fleet Street? Built by Wren? That's only St Paul's, one of the most famous buildings in the city .. If you'd gone up the dome, it has a "whispering gallery" where if you whisper along the wall it echoes round and can be heard on the other side. Due to the great fire of 1666, a lot of London churches were built by Wren. He has a distinctive style.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Yeah St Paul's is how I discovered I still have a bit of acrophobia, and also that I need more exercise. I didn't have quite as much fun up there as was advertised.
- jlarcombe 4y ago
  Heh, "a" cathedral, St. Paul's! He didn't do many with a dome, St. Stephen's Walbrook the only one I can think of apart from St. Paul's. Most of his City churches are less grand, but no less interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christopher_Wren_churches_in_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christopher_Wren_churc...

73 points by acsillag 4y ago

I was expecting a discussion of [1]. [1] http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/

forgotpwd16 4y ago
Me too but have to say I was pleasantly surprised. Non-tech articles such as these are nice to have.

Eleison23 4y ago

I visited a different sort of "Cathedral that failed". In Manresa, Catalonia there is a basilica named Santa Maria de la Seu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria,_Manresa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria,_Manresa My fiancée, acting as my native guide, informed me that Manresa was once in competition to be the seat of a bishopric, and this grand church had been constructed as part of that bid, perhaps in the 9th century or so. It is sort of like how nations build Olympic stadiums in hopes of attracting that sort of honor. Anyway, the bid did not succeed and the city remained within the jurisdiction of a more ancient see at Vic. https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisbat_de_Vic https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisbat_de_Vic Nevertheless, Santa Maria is a gorgeous sight, with flying buttresses and marvelous stonework. My impression from the visit is more of a tourist attraction and museum. We did not attend Mass at this location, if indeed it is held there. We did, however, attend Mass at the Sagrada Família. In fact, I attended Mass at two distinct Sagrada Família churches: there is one (slightly less grand scale) in Manresa too. Unfinished and unconsecrated as it had been in 2008, Mass was not yet celebrated at the main altar, so our liturgy was a rather intimate experience in the Catalan vernacular in a side-chapel. (Unfortunately, we did not have time to tour the whole thing. I should've liked to see the crypt, the breathtaking main interior, and ascend one of the towers.) We were also on a budget. When we arrived at the Cathedral of Santa Eulalia (there are a lot of cathedrals, basilicas and churches in my stories of Catalonia) we were confronted with an admission charge. The Catholic faithful and guests are not charged to attend the sacred liturgy, but tourists are charged to be lookie-loos in the off-hours, and since we ignored the schedule of Masses, we were lookie-loo tourists, and the very thought of needing to spend money offended my fiancée, who considers herself a faithful Catholic woman. I consoled her with a gift shop visit. While the Cathedral of Santa Eulalia is definitely a "finished work", you can see nearby an ancient Roman wall, which is of the type that were probably always under construction or subject to improvement by the occupying forces in Hispania.

sanedigital 4y ago

Great article, but I think its odd to call James I of Aragon's conquest of Mallorca a "Catalan conquest". Poor Aragon, always getting its history rewritten by Catalan separatists and those that sympathize with them.

capableweb 4y ago
Isn't the "Crusade of the Infants of Aragon" commonly known as the "Catalan Crusade" though? The Aragonese Crusade would refer to the events related to the War of the Sicilian Vespers. I'm no history experts though, so would be happy to be corrected, this is just my understanding of things.
FlotaDeAragon 4y ago
Those catalans want to steal the victory of the world renowned Fleet of Aragón By far the best fishermen of Spain

cousin_it 4y ago

Such sound architecture. Even when unfinished and without a roof, it's still beautiful and people want to be around it somehow, with plastic chairs and bonfires.

telesilla 4y ago

>It is not uncommon for Gothic cathedrals to be left unfinished Let's not forget the spectacular Sagrada Familia. It's worth so much, unfinished that I assume Paris will learn from this with the Notre Dame.

capableweb 4y ago
I don't think Sagrada Familia has been "left unfinished". It is still unfinished, yes, but construction continues, it hasn't stopped as far as I could tell last time I was in Barcelona.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
Sagrada Familia is not gothic though. It was born as a neo-gothic church but when Gaudì took over as the construction supervisor, he changed its style to liberty, giving birth to what is now known as Catalan modernism.
- jasonjamerson 4y ago
  Yes, Art Nouveau, or "Liberty Style" in Italian, maybe also in Spanish?
dendrite9 4y ago
Are many buildings ever really finished? I don't think people go to the Sagrada Familia because it is under construction. In fact I think more visitors would prefer more access with less equipment around. 150 years isn't really that long for a cathedral, this good article starts with the fact that the Bristol Cathedral took nearly 700 years to finish! https://theprepared.org/features-feed/2019/4/28/building-a-cathedral https://theprepared.org/features-feed/2019/4/28/building-a-c...
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  I call them living buildings. Over the centuries they are remodeled and adapted countless times. Here's a famous example from my country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnenhof https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnenhof

japanman425 4y ago

[flagged]

dang 4y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

mmsimanga 4y ago

Came straight to the comments expecting breakdown of why a closed source application failed.

herodoturtle 4y ago
… which in turn sent me down a rabbit hole of researching what esr has been up to since his famous essay.
- martincmartin 4y ago
  So what's he been up to?
  - skipkey 4y ago
    His blog has been down for a couple of years, I wondered what happened.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    9/11 conspiracy theories, climate denialism, white supremacy mostly.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
kweingar 4y ago
Both cathedral and bazaar are models of developing open source software.

hinkley 4y ago

I visited London right after I read Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, and we ended up in a cathedral off Fleet Street (I was quite disappointed that my mental image from the books was a 20m wide open sewer and in fact the buildings today might only be 5m apart close to the Thames) which was designed by Christopher Wren after the London Fire. I don't recall the name, I'm sure someone here who knows London can work it out from my description, but you could go up into the dome and I remarked to myself that the fall to the marble floor from the highest opening in the dome could easily kill a man. I've probably repeated this story here half a dozen times now, but in the background information posted at the church it said that he had so many people wanting to commission him for building their church yesterday that he built them without bell towers with an agreement that once everyone was back in business, he'd come back around and build the towers on. Seeing how complex those domes were, I'm not quite clear why adding a tower later was a substantial savings in time and effort but that's the story.

pjc50 4y ago
A Cathedral? Off Fleet Street? Built by Wren? That's only St Paul's, one of the most famous buildings in the city .. If you'd gone up the dome, it has a "whispering gallery" where if you whisper along the wall it echoes round and can be heard on the other side. Due to the great fire of 1666, a lot of London churches were built by Wren. He has a distinctive style.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Yeah St Paul's is how I discovered I still have a bit of acrophobia, and also that I need more exercise. I didn't have quite as much fun up there as was advertised.
jlarcombe 4y ago
Heh, "a" cathedral, St. Paul's! He didn't do many with a dome, St. Stephen's Walbrook the only one I can think of apart from St. Paul's. Most of his City churches are less grand, but no less interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christopher_Wren_churches_in_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christopher_Wren_churc...