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The key to the success of Rick and Morty is that it's a very subversive show, sometimes to the point of being disturbing. Its embrace of comedic nihilism underm

by dTal 4y ago

The key to the success of Rick and Morty is that it's a very subversive show, sometimes to the point of being disturbing. Its embrace of comedic nihilism undermines classic sitcom tropes in much the way The Simpsons did when it was new. I always got the impression that this stemmed in no small part from Justin Roiland. It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, but I wonder if Rick and Morty will continue to have "bite" without him. That said, if it also results in the exorcism of Rick and Morty's more toxic subtexts ("it's fine to be an asshole if you're smart" and "most people are dull and provincial and their concerns deserve ridicule"), it's probably a net win. We shall see.

shrimp_emoji 4y ago
>it's a very subversive show Very subversive. We're talking Million Dollar Extreme levels! (Wait, no; then it'd be canceled already.)
- dTal 4y ago
  I'm not sure if this is meant to be sarcastic (I'm not familiar with Million Dollar Extreme), but in any case I want to draw attention to a particular piece of subversion that encapsulates everything good and bad about Rick and Morty. (Spoilers) In the very first season, there's an episode where Rick reluctantly helps Morty attract his crush with a "love potion". Now this is obviously messed up, but it's a classic trope that pops up in all sorts of mythology. We've all seen it and we know how it goes - generally it blows up in some sort of monkey's paw way and the offenders get some sort of poetic comeuppance, lending the story a satisfying resolution and a clear moral. Rick and Morty goes out of its way to subvert this - it blows up alright, we saw that coming a mile off, but everyone in the world except the protagonists are gruesomely affected. And they don't resolve the problem, they run away. With no negative consequences for them whatsoever. They get to keep living their lives as before, while their original family and everyone else they knew continues to suffer horrifically offscreen. Sitcom does not reset. Morty is traumatized and Rick just shrugs. The end. This is a shocking thing to see on TV. It sends all kinds of terrible messages. And perhaps that's the very reason why it was so captivating, why Rick and Morty felt so fresh. It was making a very clear statement that in the RIck and Morty universe, normal dramatic tropes don't apply. Poetic justice can't be relied upon, just like in real life. Anything can happen.
  - allturtles 4y ago
    Sounds repulsive, really. And this is supposed to be a comedy? I guess I don't get it for the same reason I don't get the love for "Breaking Bad." I'm a cynic but not a nihilist.
    - dTal 4y ago
      I mean, comedy is heavily reliant on the element of surprise. Being set up to expect a particular story progression and then having that expectation flipped on its head is funny, when executed with an appropriate sense of timing. The more subconscious your expectations, the funnier it is when they are subverted. The challenge, which Rick and Morty rises to unusually well, is continuing to surprise the audience in unusual ways. Any formula will get boring after a while, including "do the opposite of normal tropes". Speaking of surprise, your wording implies you haven't seen the show, in which case you shouldn't be reading this thread.
  - heavenlyblue 4y ago
    > It was making a very clear statement that in the RIck and Morty universe, normal dramatic tropes don't apply. How does it not apply when Morty is traumatised by the experience? The show doesn't hide the fact that Rick is traumatised (by all of the experiences they had been to) either, he's just better at hiding it.
    - dTal 4y ago
      It's out of proportion. They permanently destroy the world, and the only consequence is that Morty feels bad about it. Rick is annoyed, but at a level more consistent with Morty breaking a vase - a valuable, beautiful, but ultimately replaceable object. It's implied that Rick has done this sort of thing many times before.
      - mindslight 4y ago
        That's a better lesson than the common Deus ex machina that puts everything right. Them being able to flee and things appearing normal is still half the way to that, of course. The full lesson would be if there were no parallel worlds and they were just stuck there for several episodes, only to die and the show to end. But how it played is still a long way from the usual "our horrible actions had no significant consequences!"
spywaregorilla 4y ago
I would say it's more a deconstruction of fiction, generally, rather than subversion of sitcoms. Most plots are decidedly non-sitcommy. I would also say Dan Harmon's previous work on Community is so filled to the brim with meta-analyses, parodies, homages, and self reflection that it's probably more him than Justin on the writing side. I'd ALSO say that I don't think Rick and Morty suggests Rick's behaviors or beliefs are praiseworthy. The dude is super depressed and toxic. Including of course the episode in which his toxicity become manifest.
- jjulius 4y ago
  >I'd ALSO say that I don't think Rick and Morty suggests Rick's behaviors or beliefs are praiseworthy. The dude is super depressed and toxic. I wouldn't say they're praiseworthy, but - and forgive me for any ignorance here - it's often felt like a strong, vocal portion of the show's/Rick's fanbase comes from this type of person.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    shrug. I'm not sure what the name is for the inverse of leopard ate my face but this falls squarely in the bucket of people getting mad and surprised when they find out rage against the machine was opposed to the machine. Lots of people will pay not attention to the art they consume and assume that because they like it, it agrees with their beliefs. It's not a reflection on the art.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    Oh totally. There is a large segment of Rick and Morty fans who have not internalised that Rick Sanchez is _not_ a role model. They lay out that he is not a role model pretty clearly here: https://www.themarysue.com/pickle-rick-therapy/ https://www.themarysue.com/pickle-rick-therapy/
- dTal 4y ago
  Super depressed and toxic and always right. He's shown as being that way because he understands the world better. The show might not praise him directly, but until the most recent seasons (where they appear to be trying to undo some damage) it consistently showed that he is a more effective person because of it. Another example of the subversion that reinforces this "truth = negativity" moral: (Spoilers) The episode where they're trapped in the house with shapeshifting memory-modifying aliens pretending to be loved family members. Traditionally you would expect such a problem to be resolved through the power of love, or some other positive quality that bonds the family in a way the aliens can't fake. Rick and Morty inverts it and the problem is solved through the power of resentment. The message is clear - reality is ugly and messy and painful, and "love" is a powerful illusion created to fill a biological purpose, and you should be suspicious of it if you want to act rationally, which you should. Admittedly, the Mr Poopybutthole denouement partially redeems the episode by subverting its own point and cautioning against taking it too far, but the same message crops up too often in Rick and Morty to be ignored.
sneak 4y ago
> It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, Did he, though? Accusations are not evidence. I think it is universally a mistake to read accusations by the criminal justice system uncritically, given what we know about their incentives.
- dTal 4y ago
  It's not just that, I'm afraid: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/10cum8n/comment/j4it6bn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/10cum8n/comme...
- bungeonsBaggins 4y ago
  He's also been exposed as having sent sexually explicit DMs to minors, which started to come to light after the lawsuit was filed. It was probably that, more than/in addition to the lawsuit, that led to Adult Swim dropping him. I looked into it because I had the same initial reaction you did. It's pretty terrible stuff, dude's got some issues
- Forgeties79 4y ago
  >given what we know about their incentives. Very curious to hear you unpack this little addition.
Forgeties79 4y ago
>It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, but I wonder if Rick and Morty will continue to have "bite" without him. See I used to go back and forth on this, until I realized something: Will Arnett is absolutely nothing like Bojack Horseman, one of the single most vile characters I've ever had on my tv screen. I think people (not necessarily you!) have this implicit acceptance that "in order to make disturbing/serious/dramatic/[insert intense or dark adjective] art the person has to be broken or embody it in some way." I really don't accept this, nor do I think the character one plays is a reflection on who they are for the vast majority of actors out there. Sure in hindsight Roiland's brand of humor makes sense given who he is, but frankly plenty of horrific characters have been depicted - or written - by people who are 0% like them.

by dTal 4y ago

shrimp_emoji 4y ago

>it's a very subversive show Very subversive. We're talking Million Dollar Extreme levels! (Wait, no; then it'd be canceled already.)

dTal 4y ago
I'm not sure if this is meant to be sarcastic (I'm not familiar with Million Dollar Extreme), but in any case I want to draw attention to a particular piece of subversion that encapsulates everything good and bad about Rick and Morty. (Spoilers) In the very first season, there's an episode where Rick reluctantly helps Morty attract his crush with a "love potion". Now this is obviously messed up, but it's a classic trope that pops up in all sorts of mythology. We've all seen it and we know how it goes - generally it blows up in some sort of monkey's paw way and the offenders get some sort of poetic comeuppance, lending the story a satisfying resolution and a clear moral. Rick and Morty goes out of its way to subvert this - it blows up alright, we saw that coming a mile off, but everyone in the world except the protagonists are gruesomely affected. And they don't resolve the problem, they run away. With no negative consequences for them whatsoever. They get to keep living their lives as before, while their original family and everyone else they knew continues to suffer horrifically offscreen. Sitcom does not reset. Morty is traumatized and Rick just shrugs. The end. This is a shocking thing to see on TV. It sends all kinds of terrible messages. And perhaps that's the very reason why it was so captivating, why Rick and Morty felt so fresh. It was making a very clear statement that in the RIck and Morty universe, normal dramatic tropes don't apply. Poetic justice can't be relied upon, just like in real life. Anything can happen.
- allturtles 4y ago
  Sounds repulsive, really. And this is supposed to be a comedy? I guess I don't get it for the same reason I don't get the love for "Breaking Bad." I'm a cynic but not a nihilist.
  - dTal 4y ago
    I mean, comedy is heavily reliant on the element of surprise. Being set up to expect a particular story progression and then having that expectation flipped on its head is funny, when executed with an appropriate sense of timing. The more subconscious your expectations, the funnier it is when they are subverted. The challenge, which Rick and Morty rises to unusually well, is continuing to surprise the audience in unusual ways. Any formula will get boring after a while, including "do the opposite of normal tropes". Speaking of surprise, your wording implies you haven't seen the show, in which case you shouldn't be reading this thread.
- heavenlyblue 4y ago
  > It was making a very clear statement that in the RIck and Morty universe, normal dramatic tropes don't apply. How does it not apply when Morty is traumatised by the experience? The show doesn't hide the fact that Rick is traumatised (by all of the experiences they had been to) either, he's just better at hiding it.
  - dTal 4y ago
    It's out of proportion. They permanently destroy the world, and the only consequence is that Morty feels bad about it. Rick is annoyed, but at a level more consistent with Morty breaking a vase - a valuable, beautiful, but ultimately replaceable object. It's implied that Rick has done this sort of thing many times before.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      That's a better lesson than the common Deus ex machina that puts everything right. Them being able to flee and things appearing normal is still half the way to that, of course. The full lesson would be if there were no parallel worlds and they were just stuck there for several episodes, only to die and the show to end. But how it played is still a long way from the usual "our horrible actions had no significant consequences!"

spywaregorilla 4y ago

I would say it's more a deconstruction of fiction, generally, rather than subversion of sitcoms. Most plots are decidedly non-sitcommy. I would also say Dan Harmon's previous work on Community is so filled to the brim with meta-analyses, parodies, homages, and self reflection that it's probably more him than Justin on the writing side. I'd ALSO say that I don't think Rick and Morty suggests Rick's behaviors or beliefs are praiseworthy. The dude is super depressed and toxic. Including of course the episode in which his toxicity become manifest.

jjulius 4y ago
>I'd ALSO say that I don't think Rick and Morty suggests Rick's behaviors or beliefs are praiseworthy. The dude is super depressed and toxic. I wouldn't say they're praiseworthy, but - and forgive me for any ignorance here - it's often felt like a strong, vocal portion of the show's/Rick's fanbase comes from this type of person.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  shrug. I'm not sure what the name is for the inverse of leopard ate my face but this falls squarely in the bucket of people getting mad and surprised when they find out rage against the machine was opposed to the machine. Lots of people will pay not attention to the art they consume and assume that because they like it, it agrees with their beliefs. It's not a reflection on the art.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  Oh totally. There is a large segment of Rick and Morty fans who have not internalised that Rick Sanchez is _not_ a role model. They lay out that he is not a role model pretty clearly here: https://www.themarysue.com/pickle-rick-therapy/ https://www.themarysue.com/pickle-rick-therapy/
dTal 4y ago
Super depressed and toxic and always right. He's shown as being that way because he understands the world better. The show might not praise him directly, but until the most recent seasons (where they appear to be trying to undo some damage) it consistently showed that he is a more effective person because of it. Another example of the subversion that reinforces this "truth = negativity" moral: (Spoilers) The episode where they're trapped in the house with shapeshifting memory-modifying aliens pretending to be loved family members. Traditionally you would expect such a problem to be resolved through the power of love, or some other positive quality that bonds the family in a way the aliens can't fake. Rick and Morty inverts it and the problem is solved through the power of resentment. The message is clear - reality is ugly and messy and painful, and "love" is a powerful illusion created to fill a biological purpose, and you should be suspicious of it if you want to act rationally, which you should. Admittedly, the Mr Poopybutthole denouement partially redeems the episode by subverting its own point and cautioning against taking it too far, but the same message crops up too often in Rick and Morty to be ignored.

sneak 4y ago

> It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, Did he, though? Accusations are not evidence. I think it is universally a mistake to read accusations by the criminal justice system uncritically, given what we know about their incentives.

dTal 4y ago
It's not just that, I'm afraid: https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/10cum8n/comment/j4it6bn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/10cum8n/comme...
bungeonsBaggins 4y ago
He's also been exposed as having sent sexually explicit DMs to minors, which started to come to light after the lawsuit was filed. It was probably that, more than/in addition to the lawsuit, that led to Adult Swim dropping him. I looked into it because I had the same initial reaction you did. It's pretty terrible stuff, dude's got some issues
Forgeties79 4y ago
>given what we know about their incentives. Very curious to hear you unpack this little addition.

Forgeties79 4y ago

>It's not exactly a surprise that someone with so little regard for social convention turned out to have untenable personal attributes, but I wonder if Rick and Morty will continue to have "bite" without him. See I used to go back and forth on this, until I realized something: Will Arnett is absolutely nothing like Bojack Horseman, one of the single most vile characters I've ever had on my tv screen. I think people (not necessarily you!) have this implicit acceptance that "in order to make disturbing/serious/dramatic/[insert intense or dark adjective] art the person has to be broken or embody it in some way." I really don't accept this, nor do I think the character one plays is a reflection on who they are for the vast majority of actors out there. Sure in hindsight Roiland's brand of humor makes sense given who he is, but frankly plenty of horrific characters have been depicted - or written - by people who are 0% like them.