6 ms·

Honestly every single one of those execs is very replaceable too.

mshake2 4y ago
Says the person who lacks the ability to fire them. The reason why you don't have that ability is the same reason why you are seen as more replaceable.
- arrrg 4y ago
  Is it necessary to fire them? That's the relevant question we should ask ourselves. A hiring freeze and marking obsolete positions as obsolete (meaning if someone switches teams or quits that specific position will not be replaced) should be a workable model for all profitable companies with some cash reserves. Sure, it takes a bit longer and probably costs a bit more (though probably not tons and lay offs also have other traumatic effects concerning knowledge loss, morale and motivation that can negatively affect the business) but it's a workable model. Embed that into overall more cautious hiring in good times (yeah, we can't time travel, so that's not an option - but to me that's the thing that should be learned from this) and you should never have to do any layoffs if your business is basically sound. I would be shocked, for example, if Apple were to do any lay offs. They seem to follow that approach (well, probably not in the retail context which I also think is unfortunate). To me it seems like those lay offs are primarily a tool to communicate and that just sucks. It sucks that something that should clearly be seen as a management failure (if you need to do lay offs it seems to me obvious that management is to blame, not those laid off) can in this weird upside down world be used as a communication tool towards the wider world that they are doing something useful. Even if it wouldn't be needed. Also, I just don't think people should be treated like that, especially if it's not needed. It seems so pointlessly cruel and inhuman. This is not the world I want to live in. And I know that's hard to pull off in capitalism. Maybe that's the issue. Though it's not as if you cannot modify capitalism to at least not allow for stuff like this.
  - mshake2 4y ago
    >Is it necessary to fire them? That's the relevant question we should ask ourselves. That's not the relevant question. The relevant questions are: were the layoffs illegal, and if they weren't, then why is it any of your business? If you don't want to live in that world, start your own startup, hire people, and never fire them. Nobody is stopping you.
    - arrrg 4y ago
      Do you think it‘s pointless to talk about the ethics of decisions of other people, especially if those decisions affect several thousand people? Do you think anything that is legal is also ethical? Also, in general I don’t live in that world. It‘s much harder for sound companies to just lay off people in Germany (though not impossible).
      - mshake2 4y ago
        I don't think it's productive or wise to speculate on decisions that restrict the free association of people. Outside of narrow circumstances, an employer should not be legally required to employ someone any more than an employee should be legally required to work at the company.
        piva00 4y ago
        Why is it so easy for you to disregard any kind of power/leverage relationship about labour and employment? Reality isn't that simple nor that reductionist.
        arolihas 4y ago
        It's easier to not care about anything if you decide your only principle is "the free association of people". It's one of the easiest ways to do whatever you want in your life and not give a damn about the impact it has on others without having to feel any guilt or cognitive dissonance.
        4y ago
- wildrhythms 4y ago
  > The reason why you don't have that ability And why is that?
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    More often than not, it's because GP is not part of the old boy's club that went to country club/business school/frat parties together. Probably less true for Tech, but largely true for everywhere else in the world. Power is not vested through merit but through connections.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  A well formed technology union would enable workers to fire executives and hold feet to the fire.
Aeolun 4y ago
The important thing is to always be the one doing the replacing.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Says the person who lacks the ability to fire them. The reason why you don't have that ability is the same reason why you are seen as more replaceable.

arrrg 4y ago
Is it necessary to fire them? That's the relevant question we should ask ourselves. A hiring freeze and marking obsolete positions as obsolete (meaning if someone switches teams or quits that specific position will not be replaced) should be a workable model for all profitable companies with some cash reserves. Sure, it takes a bit longer and probably costs a bit more (though probably not tons and lay offs also have other traumatic effects concerning knowledge loss, morale and motivation that can negatively affect the business) but it's a workable model. Embed that into overall more cautious hiring in good times (yeah, we can't time travel, so that's not an option - but to me that's the thing that should be learned from this) and you should never have to do any layoffs if your business is basically sound. I would be shocked, for example, if Apple were to do any lay offs. They seem to follow that approach (well, probably not in the retail context which I also think is unfortunate). To me it seems like those lay offs are primarily a tool to communicate and that just sucks. It sucks that something that should clearly be seen as a management failure (if you need to do lay offs it seems to me obvious that management is to blame, not those laid off) can in this weird upside down world be used as a communication tool towards the wider world that they are doing something useful. Even if it wouldn't be needed. Also, I just don't think people should be treated like that, especially if it's not needed. It seems so pointlessly cruel and inhuman. This is not the world I want to live in. And I know that's hard to pull off in capitalism. Maybe that's the issue. Though it's not as if you cannot modify capitalism to at least not allow for stuff like this.
- mshake2 4y ago
  >Is it necessary to fire them? That's the relevant question we should ask ourselves. That's not the relevant question. The relevant questions are: were the layoffs illegal, and if they weren't, then why is it any of your business? If you don't want to live in that world, start your own startup, hire people, and never fire them. Nobody is stopping you.
  - arrrg 4y ago
    Do you think it‘s pointless to talk about the ethics of decisions of other people, especially if those decisions affect several thousand people? Do you think anything that is legal is also ethical? Also, in general I don’t live in that world. It‘s much harder for sound companies to just lay off people in Germany (though not impossible).
    - mshake2 4y ago
      I don't think it's productive or wise to speculate on decisions that restrict the free association of people. Outside of narrow circumstances, an employer should not be legally required to employ someone any more than an employee should be legally required to work at the company.
      - piva00 4y ago
        Why is it so easy for you to disregard any kind of power/leverage relationship about labour and employment? Reality isn't that simple nor that reductionist.
        arolihas 4y ago
        It's easier to not care about anything if you decide your only principle is "the free association of people". It's one of the easiest ways to do whatever you want in your life and not give a damn about the impact it has on others without having to feel any guilt or cognitive dissonance.
        4y ago
wildrhythms 4y ago
> The reason why you don't have that ability And why is that?
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  More often than not, it's because GP is not part of the old boy's club that went to country club/business school/frat parties together. Probably less true for Tech, but largely true for everywhere else in the world. Power is not vested through merit but through connections.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
A well formed technology union would enable workers to fire executives and hold feet to the fire.

Aeolun 4y ago

The important thing is to always be the one doing the replacing.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]