6 ms·

There are few miseries I deal with regularly that compare to SIP or the hardened runtime telling me I may not debug processes on a computer where I have root. I

by cobbal 4y ago

There are few miseries I deal with regularly that compare to SIP or the hardened runtime telling me I may not debug processes on a computer where I have root. If anything is going to make me abandon macOS (I've been using it since I was a child) it's the "security and privacy" features.

aviramha 4y ago
I totally feel you though I can understand that for Apple the average consumer's security > hackers :) I think Apple should remember that people debugging and working is important too, and make the documentation around the security features less obscure. (Attaching a debugger/ptrace on macOS is really evil to implement)
sbuk 4y ago
The security and privacy features benefit the majority, of which you clearly are not, so there is an escape hatch for you; turn off SIP. Just don't disable it for typical users.
- justsomeadvice0 4y ago
  Yea, I'm really not sure how this is a "misery". System processes are protected for typical users to limit the blast radius of malware, among other reasons. If you are capable of debugging system processes you should be able to manage to: Restart macOS, holding ⌘+R. Open Terminal. Type `csrutil disable`. Restart macOS again.
  - derbOac 4y ago
    For some things though that's just Step 1 of many. Still doable but too much of a pain.
- aviramha 4y ago
  Why not enable easier override for specific scenarios? Turning off completely feels like a bad outcome
  - galad87 4y ago
    It already allows to turn off only a part of it.
    - aviramha 4y ago
      But I don't want that. That's like taking the gate instead of adding a configurable ACL.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      Turning off any of SIP is largely isomorphic to turning it all off
- chongli 4y ago
  That’s like telling me to remove the front door of my house rather than letting me have a key to unlock it.
  - tempodox 4y ago
    True, but giving us a key might jeopardize future revenue streams where we have to pay for the privilege of developing software on Apple platforms. You already get a degraded developer experience for iOS if you don't bribe Apple with a Developer Program subscription.
    - rogual 4y ago
      Not just iOS. Notarizing apps for macOS requires payment too.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      HN has been predicting a future that you could only install apps through the Mac App Store since it was introduced in 2011. Any day now…
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        We will see alt app stores on the iphone before we see macOS match those predictions.
  - jabedude 4y ago
    What would be a suitable key in your analogy?
    - solarkraft 4y ago
      Super-root? But as far as I'm aware the reasoning is that if there's a way to access something from a normal user account (with admin privileges) it can be abused somehow. Maybe a "key" would be the ability to boot/log in to a special mode with SIP enabled. Disabling/enabling it approximates this, but as far as I know an update will generally destroy your changes because Apple will just overwrite everything.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  Then iOS apps stop working, right? The DRM regime requires SIP to be enabled. Stallman was right about "treacherous computing".
  - sbuk 4y ago
    This has nothing to do with iOS.
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      macOS now has support for iOS apps, but only if SIP is enabled and their DRM/"trusted" computing regime is active. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/if-you-disable-sip-all-you-ios-apps-will-stop-working-on-your-m1.2269661 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/if-you-disable-sip-all-...
- vaughan 4y ago
  Turning off SIP means you can’t run iOS apps on macOS. This sucks.
madeofpalk 4y ago
You can just disable SIP, no?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Yes, the "locked down dictatorship macos" is surprisingly permissive. Impressively you can even dual boot linux on Apple Silicon completely unrestricted without having to turn on off the boot chain security features of macOS.
lloeki 4y ago
Under "Security and Privacy" there's been "Developer Tools" for a while, within which I only ever saw Terminal.app (but any app could be added) I'm not sure what it really does (could not find any docs, maybe someone can enlighten?) but the text made me think it could allow stuff like running unsigned debuggers: Allow the applications below to run software locally that does not meet the system's security policies Again I'm really not sure, but maybe it can cover some use cases without going the nuclear route of fully disabling SIP?
- memco 4y ago
  I Would be interested to know more about it too. I have been interested in running a piece of software that needs SIP partially disabled, but I’d I could just grant it exemption I would prefer that to a blanket removal. Funny thing is all computers used to run without SIP, but since they added it I’m now hesitant to turn it off even though I’m not any worse off than I used to be.
- macshome 4y ago
  It relaxes the signing requirements and malware signature checks for binaries run in the Terminal. This way you can build and test stuff without needing to relax the security posture of the entire Mac.
scarface74 4y ago
Yes because it’s not like bad things can happen when SIP is turned off. Not always malicious, it’s often ineptness https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/09/25/google-chrome-update-corrupting-some-macos-installs----but-theres-a-fix https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/09/25/google-chrome-upd...

by cobbal 4y ago

aviramha 4y ago

I totally feel you though I can understand that for Apple the average consumer's security > hackers :) I think Apple should remember that people debugging and working is important too, and make the documentation around the security features less obscure. (Attaching a debugger/ptrace on macOS is really evil to implement)

sbuk 4y ago

The security and privacy features benefit the majority, of which you clearly are not, so there is an escape hatch for you; turn off SIP. Just don't disable it for typical users.

justsomeadvice0 4y ago
Yea, I'm really not sure how this is a "misery". System processes are protected for typical users to limit the blast radius of malware, among other reasons. If you are capable of debugging system processes you should be able to manage to: Restart macOS, holding ⌘+R. Open Terminal. Type `csrutil disable`. Restart macOS again.
- derbOac 4y ago
  For some things though that's just Step 1 of many. Still doable but too much of a pain.
aviramha 4y ago
Why not enable easier override for specific scenarios? Turning off completely feels like a bad outcome
- galad87 4y ago
  It already allows to turn off only a part of it.
  - aviramha 4y ago
    But I don't want that. That's like taking the gate instead of adding a configurable ACL.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Turning off any of SIP is largely isomorphic to turning it all off
chongli 4y ago
That’s like telling me to remove the front door of my house rather than letting me have a key to unlock it.
- tempodox 4y ago
  True, but giving us a key might jeopardize future revenue streams where we have to pay for the privilege of developing software on Apple platforms. You already get a degraded developer experience for iOS if you don't bribe Apple with a Developer Program subscription.
  - rogual 4y ago
    Not just iOS. Notarizing apps for macOS requires payment too.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    HN has been predicting a future that you could only install apps through the Mac App Store since it was introduced in 2011. Any day now…
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      We will see alt app stores on the iphone before we see macOS match those predictions.
- jabedude 4y ago
  What would be a suitable key in your analogy?
  - solarkraft 4y ago
    Super-root? But as far as I'm aware the reasoning is that if there's a way to access something from a normal user account (with admin privileges) it can be abused somehow. Maybe a "key" would be the ability to boot/log in to a special mode with SIP enabled. Disabling/enabling it approximates this, but as far as I know an update will generally destroy your changes because Apple will just overwrite everything.
howinteresting 4y ago
Then iOS apps stop working, right? The DRM regime requires SIP to be enabled. Stallman was right about "treacherous computing".
- sbuk 4y ago
  This has nothing to do with iOS.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    macOS now has support for iOS apps, but only if SIP is enabled and their DRM/"trusted" computing regime is active. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/if-you-disable-sip-all-you-ios-apps-will-stop-working-on-your-m1.2269661 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/if-you-disable-sip-all-...
vaughan 4y ago
Turning off SIP means you can’t run iOS apps on macOS. This sucks.

madeofpalk 4y ago

You can just disable SIP, no?

Gigachad 4y ago
Yes, the "locked down dictatorship macos" is surprisingly permissive. Impressively you can even dual boot linux on Apple Silicon completely unrestricted without having to turn on off the boot chain security features of macOS.

lloeki 4y ago

Under "Security and Privacy" there's been "Developer Tools" for a while, within which I only ever saw Terminal.app (but any app could be added) I'm not sure what it really does (could not find any docs, maybe someone can enlighten?) but the text made me think it could allow stuff like running unsigned debuggers: Allow the applications below to run software locally that does not meet the system's security policies Again I'm really not sure, but maybe it can cover some use cases without going the nuclear route of fully disabling SIP?

memco 4y ago
I Would be interested to know more about it too. I have been interested in running a piece of software that needs SIP partially disabled, but I’d I could just grant it exemption I would prefer that to a blanket removal. Funny thing is all computers used to run without SIP, but since they added it I’m now hesitant to turn it off even though I’m not any worse off than I used to be.
macshome 4y ago
It relaxes the signing requirements and malware signature checks for binaries run in the Terminal. This way you can build and test stuff without needing to relax the security posture of the entire Mac.

scarface74 4y ago

Yes because it’s not like bad things can happen when SIP is turned off. Not always malicious, it’s often ineptness https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/09/25/google-chrome-update-corrupting-some-macos-installs----but-theres-a-fix https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/09/25/google-chrome-upd...