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This. The other industries mentioned might tack on fees at check-out time, but the service/product hasn't yet been consumed, so the consumer can back out. Thi

This. The other industries mentioned might tack on fees at check-out time, but the service/product hasn't yet been consumed, so the consumer can back out. This isn't true with dining out, where you see a price list, order, eat, and then get a bill at the end. You can no longer opt to eat elsewhere. You either make a scene or pay the undisclosed fees. Restaurants should at least put a notice on the menu in a highly visible location, but even that isn't going to be foolproof. Really, this practice should be banned everywhere. As a consumer, I largely don't give a shit what expenses a vendor has; I only care about the final price. I can see an argument for disclosing regulatory fees, because as a resident/citizen, I can at least lobby politicians to change those fees. But, even that's a bit of a crap argument.

jbirer 4y ago
A little assertiveness can go a long way. "I was not made aware of this fee, so I am only paying X" and walking away should work.
- tempestn 4y ago
  You can only do that if paying cash. And if you do, what will effectively happen is that the money you intend to leave as tip will go toward the fee instead.
  - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
    Unfortunately for everyone involved, the waiter is complicit in the fraud and no longer deserves a tip.
    - jzb 4y ago
      Yes, because as we all know, service staff have enormous power and dictate restaurant policy. This is why they're so highly paid and aren't abused at all by customers, for example. /s
      - adamc 4y ago
        Their only power is to leave. I don't like sticking them either, but it's true that they are complicit.
        LadyCailin 4y ago
        Or unionizing.
      - drdec 4y ago
        The server could have made sure they were aware of the policy before they ordered. Seems like the best way to make sure you get a tip to me.
        9WwFaLaTtBDaoS 4y ago
        yes. People like to act as if wait staff are completely innocent, but when I was younger I had a policy that if a female waitress started touching me close to the closing out of the deal she got no tip. I personally find that behavior gross.
      - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
        As I said, for everyone involved it is unfortunate, but the majority of people without power still choose not to be complicit in fraud.
      - unsupp0rted 4y ago
        If I work for a company that I've seen screw over our customers on a daily basis, and enough customers refuse to pay my company, then I don't have a leg to stand on when I don't get my full salary all of a sudden. This is true whether I'm a developer, a ski instructor or a waiter.
      - bakugo 4y ago
        The staff's pay is not the customer's responsibility, neither is whatever the other customers do.
      - 4y ago
  - MichaelNolan 4y ago
    You should be able to do that with a card as well. They can’t charge your card more than you authorize. (And if they did a call to the CC company will get it all taken care of).
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      They can decline to charge payment for anything other than the full figure leaving you with the ability to walk out or pay. If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution the fact that you offered to partially pay notwithstanding. Logically pay the bill then leave a negative review and never eat there again.
      - MichaelNolan 4y ago
        > If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution Is that actually a crime? My understanding is that you can leave your contact info, walk out. I’m not aware of any cases where police have gotten involved in a payment dispute. I used to work in a law enforcement adjacent field, and when the topic came up, the cops said it’s a civil dispute, not a crime. Edit - after searching online, there are a few cases of diners being arrested, though it seems the charges are always dropped. Also those cases involved posted notices of the fee before the diners ordered.
      - 1000100_1000101 4y ago
        The advertised prices form part of a contract you're agreeing to. The drip fees are un-advertised extra expenses after the contract is signed and completed (you're fed). If you're willing to pay the agreed upon price, and they're unwilling to accept your payment, that should be their problem, not yours. They have violated the contract, added new fees after the fact. They have violated the contract, refusing to accept the agreed upon payment.
        michaelmrose 4y ago
        This seems like an expensive fight to have wherein the opposing parties lawyers probably already did the due diligence to ensure those fees are legally defensible by virtue of signage. Seems like you would probably be hiring a lawyer with a 3000 retainer to fight an 8 dollar charge.
  - BonoboIO 4y ago
    If those things, would be only visible after I payed like on a kiosk or something, I would dispute the charge and report their fraud to my credit card company. Good luck doing that often. Photo of the menu, what i was charged and telling everybody to do the same.
  - bratbag 4y ago
    So don't leave a tip.
mortenjorck 4y ago
If an establishment adds a 20% surcharge to a dining check, that's a tip, and generally considered to be on the higher end in the US. I would simply consider them to have chosen my tip amount for me and leave it at that.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  > and generally considered to be on the higher end in the US. Maybe in 1998 but it's pretty much standard now.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jghn 4y ago
    In more cosmopolitan areas, 25% is the new 20%
    - dpkirchner 4y ago
      Before this thread goes much further I'd just like to point out that literally every argument for or against or indifferent regarding tipping has already been made on HN, including in this most recent thread starting yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34496438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34496438
  - ApolloFortyNine 4y ago
    Tipping is bad enough culture as it is, but inflation on the percentage you pay in tip is just funny. Are we gonna be tipping 50% in 30 years? The only reason it's the norm is simply the suggested tip boxes generally have 18 as the lowest easy option now.
    - aezart 4y ago
      I ordered pizza online and tipped in advance, and then when I signed the receipt there was an "additional tip" field. Utterly baffling.
mjmahone17 4y ago
Ideally the list price should include all expected costs. So a menu item should have taxes and the expected 20% or whatever tip (and any other fees) built in. Then the receipt can break things out and charge less per line item + add in total tax and fees and leave space for a tip (with the default applied unless you choose differently). Likewise with AirBnB: when browsing for specific dates either show the total cost or the amortized per night cost, inclusive of all fees.

jbirer 4y ago

A little assertiveness can go a long way. "I was not made aware of this fee, so I am only paying X" and walking away should work.

tempestn 4y ago
You can only do that if paying cash. And if you do, what will effectively happen is that the money you intend to leave as tip will go toward the fee instead.
- chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
  Unfortunately for everyone involved, the waiter is complicit in the fraud and no longer deserves a tip.
  - jzb 4y ago
    Yes, because as we all know, service staff have enormous power and dictate restaurant policy. This is why they're so highly paid and aren't abused at all by customers, for example. /s
    - adamc 4y ago
      Their only power is to leave. I don't like sticking them either, but it's true that they are complicit.
      - LadyCailin 4y ago
        Or unionizing.
    - drdec 4y ago
      The server could have made sure they were aware of the policy before they ordered. Seems like the best way to make sure you get a tip to me.
      - 9WwFaLaTtBDaoS 4y ago
        yes. People like to act as if wait staff are completely innocent, but when I was younger I had a policy that if a female waitress started touching me close to the closing out of the deal she got no tip. I personally find that behavior gross.
    - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
      As I said, for everyone involved it is unfortunate, but the majority of people without power still choose not to be complicit in fraud.
    - unsupp0rted 4y ago
      If I work for a company that I've seen screw over our customers on a daily basis, and enough customers refuse to pay my company, then I don't have a leg to stand on when I don't get my full salary all of a sudden. This is true whether I'm a developer, a ski instructor or a waiter.
    - bakugo 4y ago
      The staff's pay is not the customer's responsibility, neither is whatever the other customers do.
    - 4y ago
- MichaelNolan 4y ago
  You should be able to do that with a card as well. They can’t charge your card more than you authorize. (And if they did a call to the CC company will get it all taken care of).
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    They can decline to charge payment for anything other than the full figure leaving you with the ability to walk out or pay. If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution the fact that you offered to partially pay notwithstanding. Logically pay the bill then leave a negative review and never eat there again.
    - MichaelNolan 4y ago
      > If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution Is that actually a crime? My understanding is that you can leave your contact info, walk out. I’m not aware of any cases where police have gotten involved in a payment dispute. I used to work in a law enforcement adjacent field, and when the topic came up, the cops said it’s a civil dispute, not a crime. Edit - after searching online, there are a few cases of diners being arrested, though it seems the charges are always dropped. Also those cases involved posted notices of the fee before the diners ordered.
    - 1000100_1000101 4y ago
      The advertised prices form part of a contract you're agreeing to. The drip fees are un-advertised extra expenses after the contract is signed and completed (you're fed). If you're willing to pay the agreed upon price, and they're unwilling to accept your payment, that should be their problem, not yours. They have violated the contract, added new fees after the fact. They have violated the contract, refusing to accept the agreed upon payment.
      - michaelmrose 4y ago
        This seems like an expensive fight to have wherein the opposing parties lawyers probably already did the due diligence to ensure those fees are legally defensible by virtue of signage. Seems like you would probably be hiring a lawyer with a 3000 retainer to fight an 8 dollar charge.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  If those things, would be only visible after I payed like on a kiosk or something, I would dispute the charge and report their fraud to my credit card company. Good luck doing that often. Photo of the menu, what i was charged and telling everybody to do the same.
- bratbag 4y ago
  So don't leave a tip.

mortenjorck 4y ago

If an establishment adds a 20% surcharge to a dining check, that's a tip, and generally considered to be on the higher end in the US. I would simply consider them to have chosen my tip amount for me and leave it at that.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
> and generally considered to be on the higher end in the US. Maybe in 1998 but it's pretty much standard now.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jghn 4y ago
  In more cosmopolitan areas, 25% is the new 20%
  - dpkirchner 4y ago
    Before this thread goes much further I'd just like to point out that literally every argument for or against or indifferent regarding tipping has already been made on HN, including in this most recent thread starting yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34496438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34496438
- ApolloFortyNine 4y ago
  Tipping is bad enough culture as it is, but inflation on the percentage you pay in tip is just funny. Are we gonna be tipping 50% in 30 years? The only reason it's the norm is simply the suggested tip boxes generally have 18 as the lowest easy option now.
  - aezart 4y ago
    I ordered pizza online and tipped in advance, and then when I signed the receipt there was an "additional tip" field. Utterly baffling.

mjmahone17 4y ago

Ideally the list price should include all expected costs. So a menu item should have taxes and the expected 20% or whatever tip (and any other fees) built in. Then the receipt can break things out and charge less per line item + add in total tax and fees and leave space for a tip (with the default applied unless you choose differently). Likewise with AirBnB: when browsing for specific dates either show the total cost or the amortized per night cost, inclusive of all fees.