28 ms·

Appliance makers sad that 50% of customers won’t connect smart appliances

134 points by ctoth 4y ago

phreenet 4y ago
I was notified by Samsung that my new washing machine had a recall because the control module could overheat and a firmware fix would prevent any damage. It required me to download the Samsung Smart Things App to my phone, create a Samsung account, connect my washing machine to my WiFi using the app and wait for the washer to decide to download the firmware fix. Connecting a washing machine to the WiFi/Internet made me feel slimy.
- PenguinCoder 4y ago
  Also affected by that notice, I ended up buying a new washer instead.
- radicalbyte 4y ago
  I'd call them and have them take the washing machine back.
mikece 4y ago
1. There is too much "Create an account" and "Give us your info" and "agree to these 300 pages of TOS" 2. We want our appliances to work for us rather than for data brokers Now if my washing machine had a web server built in and I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that. In fact, if the smarts on the washing machine didn't phone home without asking me first I might even join it to my home network. But as long as the terms are that I must accept an electronic leash up my ass from the manufacturer with little say in what info they collect or to whom they give it if I want to see the status of my machine remotely then they can get stuffed.
- gofreddygo 4y ago
  At first, I got excited about IOT showing up and the possibilities. I could automate everything ! Smart lights, smart TV, smart fridge, smart washing machine, smart toaster, smart coffee machine, smart switch, smart plugs, smart lock, smart speaker, smart photo frame .... I spent months, interconnected everything, it felt awesome. Till it didn't. Few years in, I realized what a lie, a mirage it all has been! I bought them to make my life easier, it did the reverse (with some very rare exceptions). I just kept seeing weird bugs, random forced updates, missed schedules, firmware issues, interoperability issues. Then, I started seeing ads in physical mail, emails, even phone calls for new or renewing subscriptions. Real creepy stuff. All this to monitor usage and sell me more stuff ! I pulled the plug, dialed back on everything smart. I then realized I had a hard time getting my hands on products that get the job done and don't force me to connect it to the internet. I'm now monitoring my router logs for weird activity, locking products down and actively figuring out ways to firewall them. Such a waste!
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  3. We want our appliances to work until they break down - not until the company updates the software so they break down faster (or instantly [for our safety of course]) so we need to buy a new appliance.
  - mikece 4y ago
    4. We want schematics, details, and parts availability to fix things ourselves (or for our local independent repair person to do it) rather than grovel for a tech who paid the manufacturer for the label of "brand certified" to come overcharge me for a fix that won't really fix the issue completely.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest, what with all the open source companies in recent batches. Give me Bosch, Speedqueen, etc appliance quality with right to repair and I will pay. I want dumb yet sturdy equipment that will last.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
        That's not VC. That's just a regular business. Please start it.
      - stagger87 4y ago
        This hypothetical product is not going to come from a YC startup...
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Agreed!
      - fknorangesite 4y ago
        > Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest You have a lot more faith in YC than I do.
- H1Supreme 4y ago
  > I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that As long as this monitoring system can completely fail, and the machine still works, I'm okay with it. Ultimately, the more shit like this that gets shoved into appliances, the more the cost climbs. And, If I had to guess, actual functionality (eg. washing my clothes) is the target of cost cutting measures. Which is precisely what I don't want in an appliance.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  And that nice and handy remote update that either disables a bunch of stuff that you already paid for or that bricks a perfectly good piece of hardware if the company goes out of business. https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsung-Bricked-My-Washing-Machine/td-p/2379781 https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsu...
- amf12 4y ago
  Hopefully, more appliances are Matter based in the future and this won't be necessary.
  - ravivooda 4y ago
    I was going to ask about the same; Matter or HomeKit would/should solve the problem of Privacy, right?
    - rodgerd 4y ago
      I seriously doubt that Google would have signed on to Matter if it didn't provide an abundance of ways to gossip about you.
      - Larrikin 4y ago
        Google supporting the standard is irrelevant so long as Home Assistant does. More devices in the eco system at the beginning is a plus for the health of the standard, just don't buy one of their listening devices
      - yencabulator 4y ago
        Google might be pretty much okay only capturing the 99.99% of people who don't think about privacy much, and want the convenience of Google Home and centralized data. Giving a slight nod to the 0.01% might even lead to a decrease in bad PR.
- ender341341 4y ago
  I use a zigbee smart outlet to monitor the power usage (I have a gas dryer so easier to do than something on 220) and use that to notify when the washer/dryer are done. I do something like if power usage goes above x, then wait till it goes below that for at least 3 minutes and notify me then (exact timing may depend on the washer/dryer)
  - ARandomerDude 4y ago
    Great idea, thanks for the tip.
  - jhot 4y ago
    I do the same with my washer. 100W threshold to know it's running and then has to be below 5W for 3 minutes to be done. ntfy.sh alert is then sent to whoever is home (or just me if nobody is home).
- mihaaly 4y ago
  A robot vacuum requiring Wifi connection to work with dual HD camera on it and making accurate map of my entire home and proud of having internet access will not only keep me away connecting it to my home Wifi - with devices having sensitive data on - but from buying such device. It happened. I did not find acceptable offline one so I keep vacuuming manually.
  - didsomeonesay 4y ago
    Well you're not alone with this view. This is were Valetudo and dustbuilder should be mentioned. With these projects, you can replace the nasty privacy-invasive bits in the vendor's SW stack. There's a buying guide to find a matching rootable robot for your needs: https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots.html https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots... I got a pair of Dreame W10s in the last Black Friday deals and they're a great help. I wish my money wouldn't go towards the vendor crapware that takes extra efforts to get rid of. But i couldn't be happier with the result, having automated the vacuuming and mopping.
    - brnt 4y ago
      Also bought a W10 last BF, worka great without setting up wifi/valetudo.
- kentm 4y ago
  Appliance makers can't seem to resist trying to push you into an "ecosystem" that they own rather than allow you to use open standards, and its super frustrating. I suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value and delivering customer-centric features, but they're actually pretty customer-hostile by trying to trap us. Note to makers of "smart" appliances: if you want my business then support standard Zigbee or ZWave hubs.
  - eternityforest 4y ago
    Most of these devices support Google Home, which isn't ideal, but it does allow cross manufacturer compatibility. There's probably just not much demand for open standards because Home is good enough, up until they take the cloud server down. Matter might improve things a bit.
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    > suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value They know they're not. Developers aren't stupid.
- thrashh 4y ago
  I think the bigger issue is that the smart features just aren’t useful They’re all just tech demos… and often buggy ones A valuable feature solves a problem
- bambax 4y ago
  > Now if my washing machine had a web server built in and I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that. How big is your house? And why do you need to know when the cycle is finished? I absolutely do not want a so-called "smart" appliance and will go out of my way not to buy one. I want something with as few buttons as possible, that promises to last a long time.
  - ArchOversight 4y ago
    Not the original poster... but wanted to answer anyway. I have ADHD, my washer sending a push notification to my iOS devices (I have LG ThinQ enabled washer/dryer) means I have an alert in a place where I am already looking for alerts that my washing machine is done and I should go move the clothes into the dryer. Before I enabled push notifications for this, my laundry could sometimes sit in the washer for days, getting all nasty and moldy and needing another cycle to be run just to get them clean before throwing them into the dryer. That is why I need to know that the cycle is finished.
- jacknews 4y ago
  Exactly, I have a LG washer that has a smart feature. But it works by the machine connecting to an LG server, and then their smartphone app connecting to the LG server, and matching up. Needless to say I have never connected it. Why can't they just run a local webserver or API? I'd use that. Even more if it was a documented API and I could write my own automation for it.
mvellandi 4y ago
Better for manufacturers to focus on clear, multichannel product registration, error messages that can be decoded and referenced online, and provide a usb port if necessary for updates.
- mikece 4y ago
  All while not giving out information relevant to independent repair shops or those who want to service their own appliances. We no longer own anything, we merely lease it from the manufacturer.
dmitrygr 4y ago
I am saddened that 50% of users are idiots enough to give their data away for free like that. We need PSAs about this...
MarkusWandel 4y ago
A work-from-home colleague just lost a work day or two when the manufacturer of his home wi-fi network reached down from the cloud, silently updated the firmware, and introduced flakiness in the process. Imagine that happening to your washing machine, or stove, or fridge. By malice or incompetence, the invisible hand of the cloud reaching down and making a device work differently than you're used to. No thanks. But an easy fix for those recalcitrant 50% like me. Just make the device refuse to function at all unless it has (recent) internet connectivity. Problem solved.
- happymellon 4y ago
  Solved, or a return.
- olivierduval 4y ago
  Actually, you'll get a direct return to the store with a big red label "Doesn't work"... and refund
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Yeah. 50% won't voluntarily connect. Maybe 25% will return for refund instead of connect. (And maybe 10% don't even have internet, and aren't going to get it for a washing machine...)
- H1Supreme 4y ago
  Care to list the brand (model)? That seems insane to me. Firmware upgrades should be deliberate, and done with caution (hopefully starting with a backup).
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    Any update should be deliberate. Windows will now just update it self without asking over night. I often wake up, and see that my PC laptop has rebooted into Linux since that’s at the top in the bootloader.
dboreham 4y ago
My Samsung phone has begun offering to pair with washers and dryers in various fast food restaurants I visit. After the third or fourth time, I decided to have fun and accept, but sadly it seems I need to have physical access to complete the process :(
- milesvp 4y ago
  Yes. Believe it or not, getting certified for a number of standards in the IoT world require some proof that you have access to the device in order to pair with it. This is often something like a button press during the process, but a unique qr code on the device itself can also suffice for some standards.
  - fibers 4y ago
    then why even offer this possibility for industrial customers?
- robinsonb5 4y ago
  My neighbours have accidentally paired with my bluetooth soundbar on a number of occasions. (Fun - if legally dubious - halloween prank: put a load of spooky sound effects on your phone, then wander around town looking for unsecured bluetooth soundbars!)
  - nullc 4y ago
    And then find out that someone put a soundbar chip in someone's automated insulin pump. :P
- m463 4y ago
  I've been wondering about things like this. For example if you don't connect yourr LG subwoofer to wifi, it shows up as an access point, and ios shows an airplay device.
transpute 4y ago
Is there any industry segment where vendors have converged to a common interface for their business customers to configure devices and receive appliance telemetry for private use? How does telemetry data ownership work in regulated industries like airplanes? If there are no commercial precedents, are there open-source firmware or hardware IoT devices setting a good example?
- atwebb 4y ago
  Waiting for Okta to enter the home appliance game...
airstrike 4y ago
Hacker news user happy that 50% of customers won't connect smart appliances I thought that number would be much lower
- roflc0ptic 4y ago
  i'm shocked that 50% of people are willing to do it. I wouldn't do it simply for the hassle, setting aside any ideological opposition to mass surveillance by my dishwasher. Having stuff in my friend's "smart home" stop working because there was a hurricane and it couldn't connect to servers far away was also vindicating, tho.
- domador 4y ago
  Maybe many of us are pleased that ordinary customers are (even unwittingly) falling in line with our own values on security or usability and our own distaste for tech hype. (No, putting something on "the cloud", making an app for it, or making it "smart" doesn't automatically improve a product.)
m3kw9 4y ago
Smart stove internet remotely activate your stove so you can boil water before you arrive home given you have the a pot of water on the correct stove , no thanks.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  As a security engineer I just heard "Allow anyone to remotely activate your stove and burn down your house while you are sleeping."
- hgomersall 4y ago
  I actually want a different interface to our induction hob. The magnetic twiddly knob is all very clean-linesy; it's just a bit shit. I want an array of actual buttons. If the manufacturer won't provide me with one, then give me an API so I can make one. But no, they won't surrender any control, so you don't really have a smart anything; instead to have a thing limited by the imagination of a marketing department.
  - m463 4y ago
    When I first played with induction stoves, they all had buttons and I just wanted a knob. very few have knobs, unless you spend lots more money.
    - hgomersall 4y ago
      Knobs are good too.
- warmlander 4y ago
  I wish it were that smart. Perhaps dangerous but potentially useful but all you can do is turn off the stove so even if all the security issues were addressed there is very little value add to connecting your stove to your wifi.
kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
They should try doing it themselves. They’d soon see why.
kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
They’ll have to make their money on $50 refrigerator water filters instead. You know who you are!
- somehnguy 4y ago
  Samsung? My new home has all Samsung appliances and I was shocked to see that a new fridge water filter was $50. Not a chance I’m paying that. Found a 2 pack of a compatible brand for $20, seems to work fine! If the price were reasonable I would have just bought the Samsung replacements and called it a day. But instead they got $0 of my money.
  - radicalbyte 4y ago
    I didn't change it for a decade with no issues. Our water is pretty soft though.
  - Someone1234 4y ago
    Manufacturers have started adding RFID tags to those with unique IDs, so not only can they verify they're "genuine" water filters, but also stop you reusing the same RFID tag sticker for multiple filters. GE started this trend, but aren't alone.
    - criddell 4y ago
      GE will send you a bypass insert if you ask for one. I think they are intended for people who have a whole-home filter. Once you have that, you can peel off the RFID tag and stick it in the filter compartment and go back to buying non-RFID filters. On my fridge it lights up the "not-filtering" light, but that's okay by me. I replace the filter every 3 months.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      I'm waiting for the day they shut off your fridge because you bought "unapproved" food. "Incompatible yogurt was detected! To ensure your refrigerator maintains an optimum temperature be sure to buy only GE compatible Chobani™ yogurt and foods from our other "GE Chill Eats®" partners."
jqpabc123 4y ago
Consumers just don't understand how these things help the manufacturer earn a little extra money by invading their privacy. If they only understood how important this is to them, they would be much more cooperative. /sarcasm
- maximus-decimus 4y ago
  I don't even understand how a washing machine can steal any data worth money. Are they eavesdropping on all network traffic or something?
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Just monitoring the line voltage and the frequency with which it runs loads and at what temp will tell you the composition of the occupants of the place where it is located. And probably also whether the people there wfh or go to the office.
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      But can you differentiate the dishwasher and washing machine this way? Can you measure the actual wash cycles and settings they used? And more importantly, can the appliance manufacturer sell and profit off of that data? The answers are "maybe", "probably not", and "definitely not", the latter being the most important here.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Absolutely. I don't know where you get your answers but I've seen systems like this in practice and they are uncannily accurate. See also: smart electricity meters.
  - robinsonb5 4y ago
    You can tell a lot about someone from how often the washing machine runs, and which modes get used - whether they live alone, have a large family - even whether they have pets - all data that, when tied to a user account which contains your name, address, email address, (inside leg measurement, blood group...) is valuable to advertisers.
asdff 4y ago
Well, there wouldn't be a market for things like the Apple TV or Roku or Firestick or Chromecast if people actually used the smart features on their smart tvs.
- garblegarble 4y ago
  On the contrary, I used the smart features on my TV and was so horrified by the experience of Samsung cramming ads and unwanted IPTV features into every part of the experience that I bought an Apple TV and disconnected the TV from the network!
  - asdff 4y ago
    Xbox has been my media center for 15 years. There's probably plenty of others with a game system relegated to mostly streaming duty these days too.
cpeterso 4y ago
Most users are probably totally unaware of their smart appliances' capabilities or can't figure out the confusing UI. I know that I can't half the time.
- TheKnack 4y ago
  This. My parents have several smart appliances but were completely unaware. Even if they were aware they wouldn't care. Regardless of one's opinion of the privacy aspect, none of the "smart" functionality their appliances have is worth the time it takes to set it up. It's mostly pointless.
- m463 4y ago
  And this is why smart users have to live with annoying nag messages and "lets set you up" guided dialogs
paxys 4y ago
I am very technical minded and still struggle to set up most simple smart appliances (switches, plugs, light bulbs). Put it into pairing mode, download an app, create an account, switch wifi networks on your phone, enter your password, switch back, add an Alexa skill... The average user has no chance. I'm surprised the number is as high as 50%.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  TBH I've found as being a technically minded person I often struggle more to setup supposedly simple things than some of my less technically inclined associates, mostly because I want to understand what it is doing and why, and I want to know what the various switches and fields mean. Whereas most of my other associates are happy to just click "next", "next", "next" and Done.
- rodgerd 4y ago
  Don't forget "reconfigure your APs because half the devices will error if they see a 5 GHz band"
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
I was just bemoaning this yesterday: There are so many fancy electronic devices that I would love to use, if only the software wasn't hot garbage and actively working against my interests. Smart TV? That'd rock! But no, I'm not going to wait 15 seconds for it to boot, and I'm not going to pay for a device that shows me ads. Wifi-enabled washer/dryer/dishwasher? I'm working out how to retrofit that onto my existing devices! But, y'know, without the cloud and spying. Various "smart home" things? I'm actually happy with zwave et al., because, get this, they let me use my own FOSS against the devices. I mean, I'd prefer a user-flashable ESP8266/ESP32/etc. but I'll take what I can get.
- adriancr 4y ago
  Smart TV is easy fix, just set up pi hole/separate dnsmasq with whitelist (docker with bridged network on router?) or do something like this on a rp2040 or esp32 https://github.com/AdrianCX/pico_hole https://github.com/AdrianCX/pico_hole > Wifi-enabled washer/dryer/dishwasher? I'm working out how to retrofit that onto my existing devices! Shelly smart plug - set up an app somewhere to poll it and when power usage goes up - washing machine is on, power usage reaches idle for a while - its finished. For other sensors, you mentioned zwave, curious what you're using.
  - technofiend 4y ago
    Since I'm already in the Google ecosystem, I purchased a chromecast instead. CC's sport apps for most major streaming services, a decent ten foot interface and if you don't mind telling Google what you're up to, a voice search option. Although I wish it spoke wifi 6e just to get the device out of congested frequencies, many chromecasts also support ethernet. And you can of course dedicate a network segment or vlan to IOT devices and lock down their access however you like.
  - nunez 4y ago
    Apparently some smart TVs will hardcode a DNS server IP into some services to work around that.
    - 4y ago
newaccount2021 4y ago
countdown until my washer refuses to start the cycle until the facial recognition registers that my face has been present to watch a two minute ad for Tide of course for a $14.99 monthly subscription to HomeAppliancesPlus I will be able to skip the ads...
- barking_biscuit 4y ago
  Yeah I wonder how long until they try the business model where the appliances are free, but you have to watch ads each time before you use them?
pb77 4y ago
Samsung TV starts playing ads if it feels you are idle so i don't connect it to internet directly so use a fire stick. I once connected tv to internet to update some firmware but disconnected the same day because of ads. There are also concerns about control, in Texas there were people who signed something that allowed the companies to remotely control their ac, apparently at night time it was turned up to 82, I am worried about what other companies could do like smart washer ( how about allowed to wash cloths only after 10 pm ) or not allowed to use some setting like extra wash etc. What would happen if your account gets locked and you cannot access your smart stove to cook a meal. All those people who posted that their oculus was locked out because their FB account go locked out. In my opinion most of these smart appliances are more of a hassle than worth it.
- darkwizard42 4y ago
  I agree with a lot of your post, but the Texas example is actually the kind of example I would prefer. Folks were not deceived when they signed up for the process. It was clearly spelled out, enjoy lower rates, but when energy grid gets hot, you might have some conditions throttled resulting in mild discomfort (the exact window of how much this could affect and the minimums was transparently communicated). And it was all opt-IN which I think is again a good thing. I don't like when smart appliances like the Samsung connect to the internet for what I as a consumer hope are good things (like using Netflix with the push of a button, etc.) and instead abuse that by showing me ads -- not something they include very visibly in the agreement or feature sell. It is not transparent and near impossible to opt out of.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    What I don't get about signing up to allow your thermostat to be remotely controlled for a discount, is that isn't really easy to circumvent the system? Either the cloud thermostat isn't even connected, or a second thermostat in parallel, or only sign up a thermostat that controls half your load (making the other half work harder), or even just a candle under the thermostat to make it think it's warmer than it is. Making it do what it's advertised to do would either require fully trusting the hardware (and hardware in this case means the whole hvac system), or monitoring a home's electricity usage and having some after the facto punishment (which will only catch the unsophisticated ways of working around it).
andrewia 4y ago
Thinking in terms of the average consumer, I think cybersecurity isn't a major concern, but the hassle of setup is. Most people expect an appliance to do its job with minimal fuss. (This can lead to problems, like how car owners can ignore oil change reminders and disable lane keep assist.) But in general simplicity is a good thing - it reduces the mental overhead needed for home life. For appliance makers, they need to have a better selling point for connectivity. Only a few appliances benefit from automation and remote commands (like thermostats and some light fixtures). Other appliances, like ovens and clothes washers, require physical presence at the start of the cycle, have a predictable runtime, have simple interfaces, and can't predict failures (due to a lack of sensors and cost of further firmware development). So connectivity isn't beneficial.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  The pain setup is a long term play. If you already have a GE Washing Machine, with an account when you go to replace your Fringe you will be more prone to buy a GE Fridge so you do not have to setup a Samsung or LG or Whirlpool account...
- IMSAI8080 4y ago
  I bought a smart tumble drier but never connected it. For me it was a combination of factors. The smarts doesn't really do a lot for me. My house isn't that big, I can hear when it's done because it stops rumbling in the distance. Getting a notification on my phone isn't very useful. It was offputting that it needs an app, and the app was rated 1 star on the play store. Do I want that on my phone? I didn't look into why it was rated like that. Then I started wondering about exactly what Chinese data centre either the drier or the app connects to and decided I didn't need a smart tumbler drier. Not enough in it for me to risk whatever problems it may bring.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  Appliances that ever need to grant privileged access to an external party (ex. manufacturer webserver or support) should have a physical switch for disabling that capability.
- dontlaugh 4y ago
pm2222 4y ago
If your product is useful ppl will sign up. It’s that simple.
MattGrommes 4y ago
My new GE stove actually required me to connect it to wifi before I could use all the various modes it has. I bought it partly because it has an "air fryer" mode but couldn't use it until it was connected. I did it long enough to turn on the features and then blocked its access to the internet in my router. Now even though it's connected to my local wifi, I can't use the things like having an alarm on my phone since it can't connect to the internet. Utter bullshit on every level. My favorite "feature" is that the phone app can turn on the light inside the oven. Which you can only see if you're standing right there, obviously.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  Return it, otherwise how will they know it's defective?
- nullc 4y ago
  > Now even though it's connected to my local wifi, I can't use the things like having an alarm on my phone since it can't connect to the internet. NAT is partially to thank for that. ... there is pretty much no normie user supportable way of having a device talk to your phone short of having them both phone home to some cloud server. They could support both direct connections for easy cases and expert users AND the cloud nonsense-- but then they'd have to implement their connectivity twice and they'll still end up with more support calls from users in the wrong mode.
  - sophacles 4y ago
    > NAT is partially to thank for that. ... there is pretty much no normie user supportable way of having a device talk to your phone short of having them both phone home to some cloud server. isn't this what MDNS is for?
    - mhio 4y ago
      Yep, and zeroconf more generally.
    - nullc 4y ago
moomin 4y ago
If this data is valuable to the manufacturers, they can pay me for it.
solomatov 4y ago
In addition to security and privacy I have two more concerns: - Replacement of nice physical controls with touch screens and touch panels. It's so nice to have tactile feedback when you turn a knob compared to pressing some virtual button. - Introduction of new failure modes which might make devices almost unusable without finding their instruction and following obscure reset procedures, i.e. you turn on some settings, and it's not so easy to turn it off.
- baal80spam 4y ago
  > Replacement of nice physical controls with touch screens and touch panels. It's so nice to have tactile feedback when you turn a knob compared to pressing some virtual button. Not to mention these appliances are often handled with unclean (slimy, dirty, wet etc.) fingers!
- Starwatcher2001 4y ago
  >Replacement of nice physical controls with touch screens and touch panels. It's so nice to have tactile feedback when you turn a knob compared to pressing some virtual button. And vital to anyone visually impaired.
cratermoon 4y ago
Honestly I'm surprised that 50% don't connect. As others have suggested, there's probably too much friction to setup. These aren't VCRs, they shouldn't need a tech to install them.
renewiltord 4y ago
I mean, sure, I'll sign up for the whole shebang: smart device, subscription for consumables, automatic service. Whatever. But it has to work, dude. If you're in the business of selling a dishwasher, you are going to suck at the business of selling dishwasher tablets / month. It's going to be more costly, you're going to miss dates, you're going to cock it up when I change my credit card. There is a serious trust issue with these people. I don't think they can do this other thing. I really don't. They lack the organizational expertise. Plus the software they have is shit, so I don't trust them there either. They probably make a damned nice dishwasher motor and nice rotor arms and they can put it all together, but I don't trust them with the other stuff.
sumoboy 4y ago
I have newer GE washer/dryer w/wifi and it's handy to see notifications popup and stats, but it was a hassle to setup. Download app, create account, sign into another app that doesn't like to retain your id/pw, and spend 10-15 minutes per machine while it figures out how to connect. Manufacturers fail to show people with a single sheet of instructions or a QR code linked Youtube video how to get this setup. The assumption everyone is a tech genius at home is insane.
mullingitover 4y ago
The whole point of an appliance is that it's completely reliable and simple. As soon as you want me to add wifi credentials to an appliance, you've made me into the sysadmin for my appliance. Hard pass.
- m463 4y ago
  iot vendor: "we will sysadmin for you JOHN of 123 MAIN ST, BOISE. with automatic updates and automatic shipment on low toner or dishwasher rinse aid!"
MrMember 4y ago
How long until all appliances come with an integrated cell modem and connect whether you want them to or not?
- otikik 4y ago
  Faraday Cage
  - notpachet 4y ago
    Better yet -- SmartCage. Connect your Faraday Cage to the cloud for the latest product updates, features, and promotional content!
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      You are currently subscribed to our hourly mailing list containing the best deals on data privacy products from our business partners. Are you sure you want to unsubscribe? You will be missing out on the latest offers! Please note that unsubscribing does not change what data we collect about you or the business partners that we share it with. You will only stop receiving our exclusive offers by email.
- criddell 4y ago
  I think this is probably one of the revenue models for things like Amazon Sidewalk. For the appliance companies, it might be cheaper to offer the installer $25 to make sure the appliance is connected to the internet before they leave. They wouldn't get to 100%, but they would certainly get a lot more.
- rodgerd 4y ago
  That was part of the hype for 5G in B2B conversations - Telcos have pushed the idea that it will scale in a way that 4G (and earlier) can't, so you could drop 5G on every device in every home, invisible to the occupants and the nominal owners of the devices.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mattgreenrocks 4y ago
It's incredible that corporations can whine to the media about how few people are participating in their new revenue schemes. Your company's need to make money is not my problem. In the indie maker world, low traction just means it isn't meeting a need that hurts enough, so it's time to pack it up and move on. Telling customers they're wrong for not buying from you is quite a look.
- MattDemers 4y ago
  >Telling customers they're wrong for not buying from you is quite a look. Can't wait until they find some moralistic reasoning that not buying smart = worse environmental choice. Then the true fun will begin.
TavsiE9s 4y ago
I tried connecting two appliances: our fridge and our dishwasher. Both are about three meters away from an access point. I've struggled for hours to get these two appliances to connect to WiFi with the various mobile applications the manufacturers come up with. I gave up and just won't bother anymore.
criddell 4y ago
HP has tried to solve this with some of their multifunction printers (I have an 8720) by having their software refuse to scan until you create an online account and register the printer. They really, really, really want you to subscribe to their ink service.
- Starwatcher2001 4y ago
  I'd put it back in the box and return it as defective.
  - criddell 4y ago
    It worked just fine when I bought it. The “update” was rolled out well past the date I could return it.
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      This and the fact that it's likely a not-updated Linux box with a persistent store of things I've printed are reasons why my HP printer is not connected to any network...
friend_and_foe 4y ago
I'm old enough to remember when the Xbox 360 came out, the PR disaster that was with the tracking and what not. People that say nobody cares about privacy are very wrong, I knew very few people who were happy with that situation and were willing to forego some of the touted service improvements that came wity the surveillance. But look at consoles today. Exactly what people said they didn't want, exactly what these companies said they weren't trying to do, are the norm in the home entertainment industry. And the same will happen with these appliances. The manufacturers are waging a war of attrition on the public, incrementally increasing surveillance and kneecapping their own products to pressure us to accept the surveillance. We become tired, then exhausted and eventually give in, eventually people but those with the most resolve get tired of fighting it. This is where our governments are supposed to step in on our behalf, they're failing us, because they benefit from the surveillance as well. This can't go on indefinitely, and I don't think they see over the horizon on this one.
- hbn 4y ago
  Are you thinking of the Xbox One? That was the one that, at announcement, was trying to sell itself as an entire entertainment control center for watching TV and whatnot, required always-on Kinect, required a call home every few days to play games you physically owned on discs, etc. And that was basically all walked back, and I don't think the latest generation of consoles does anything like that.
  - friend_and_foe 4y ago
    Yes, actually I am. Thanks for correcting me. And currently from my experience you can't play single player on many games without an internet connection and things like that. The only thing I can see that isn't in them is the always on camera, but they've got that sort of stuff in the TV now. The rest of it, requiring an internet connection to phone home, forced updates, non-ownership over the media, all have become the reality at this point.
- m463 4y ago
  on the other hand, there is https://GOG.com https://GOG.com
civilized 4y ago
Only 50%? It should be 0%. Who on earth bothers to do this. In my experience, smart devices are without exception worse than dumb ones. I have a Nest (came with the house, too lazy to change the mounting and put in something else) and once I had to spend an hour manually clearing all the random recurring temperature changes it had "cleverly" accumulated over months of use and people changing the temp. I had to work quite hard to make this silly device behave in a predictable, controllable, useful way. And that is what is awful about electronics these days. Smart by default, but "smart" is actually dumber than dumb. Just let us have dumb please.
domador 4y ago
I know I'm not the average customer, but by default I'm skeptical that a) the "smart" part of an appliance actually improves the product and b) a public company will refrain from eventually turning a perfectly good standalone product into an unreliable, untrustworthy, brickable rent-seeking service. (Alas, the real reason for low connectivity is surely just the difficulty for the average user of connecting the appliance to Wi-Fi.)
kdamica 4y ago
I don’t even connect my smart TV to the internet. My setup is a windows PC hooked up to the TV with a steam controller to use as mouse and keyboard.
yumraj 4y ago
> That means companies like Whirlpool are missing out on services revenue, which is increasingly crucial to manufacturers facing rising input costs, declining replacement purchases, and hungry shareholders. I'm surprised by the "declining replacement purchases" since based on what I'm seeing/reading/hearing appliance qualities have gone downhill and they have become more complex meaning that more people are replacing their appliances sooner rather than getting them repaired.
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  This could mean declining replacement purchases from the same company. When I have to replace an appliance, I frequently try a new brand because my experience with appliances is almost universally bad. Edit: Amazingly, 15 minutes after posting this, I discovered my Instant Pot is not heating.
rurp 4y ago
This topic is a sore spot for me because I recently got a "smart" LG washer+dryer set and they are hands down the worst washer and dryer pair I've ever had. In years past I've had good experiences with LG products, but this purchase and the last TV I bought from them are a huge disappointment. The washer/dryer really push you to use their preset modes that are supposed to figure out the right settings. To find out how long a wash cycle is going to take you need to start it, wait while it sits there silently for an interminably long time, before it finally displays a runtime and starts washing. Unfortunately the "smarts" are really dumb. The dryer never gets it right, clothes always come out wet or over-dried; I've had more clothes damaged from this set in a few months than my entire life prior to this set. The worst part is the lack of manual controls. Tasks that used to take a fraction of a second and zero thought on old machines are now difficult or impossible. For example, if the clothes are still damp and I want to run the dryer for another 8 minutes on medium low heat -- too bad. That's literally impossible to do!
- dsalzman 4y ago
  That's why I bought a washer dryer set from Speed Queen. No smarts - just a few knobs and buttons. They work great!
  - m463 4y ago
    you just have to make sure they have a respectable dryness sensor. estimating the time is hard.
happytoexplain 4y ago
In my personal experience, the number one reason people don't connect smart products is because they simply don't know how it would benefit them. They don't read manuals, and the copy on ads and packaging tends to describe the smart features in ambiguous terms. The second most common reason is because, compared to a dumb feature, a smart feature, despite doing something above and beyond the dumb feature: has much worse UX; is brittle in its functionality; is ephemeral in its future availability; and is nebulous in how it works (is this using the internet or just the LAN?). It's a bit like the difference between a mechanical toggle and a touch screen. The third most common reason is because it's just annoying to go through the setup process. Data privacy concerns come in at a vanishingly rare fourth place. Again, these are my personal real-life observations of other people.
shadowgovt 4y ago
"Won't" or "functionally can't?" What percentage of smart appliances require at least one other device to do the connection (be it a smartphone or desktop PC)? The industry has vastly overestimated the median user's technical competency if they require such interconnects.
akomtu 4y ago
In a better society, "smart" features could be used for good. Imagine your car was equipped with numerous sensors that could detect an odd vibration pattern in the engine, notify your mechanic and prevent a 5k repair with a 50 bucks fix.
- barking_biscuit 4y ago
  And have someone lose out on $5k of your money? Sacrilege!
dusted 4y ago
I'm more worried about the 50% that DO connect their devices.. Don't do that.
kshahkshah 4y ago
I was at Home Depot the other day buying a new washer/dryer. Every 'smart' fridge had a Certificate Error on them. It was pathetic.
alistairSH 4y ago
Surprised we've made it this far without an Ubik reference... The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.
ericra 4y ago
I wonder how much damage printer manufacturers did to consumer trust in this space. Even among non-tech people, it's pretty common knowledge at this point that printers will do a variety of terrible things like completely lock down your hardware if you don't phone home to get updates, use a non-standard or recycled/refilled cartridge, etc. TV manufacturers are catching up here as well with their greedy practices, but the printer stuff has been around forever. It's not a far jump to extend this mistrust to all appliances and be weary of connecting anything to your network that does not require it to function.
fwungy 4y ago
First thing I did when I moved into my rental was disconnect the Wifi from the stove and refrigerator. 1) I don't want wifi on these things. I don't care what they can do for me. 2) I discovered they pump RF that was literally off my meter, making my kitchen an RF kill zone experiment. Now, turning this wifi off was the difficult part. There is no method given in the manuals and even dedicated searching of forums couldn't turn up a magic maintenance code to turn them off. I ended up using my RF meter to hone in on where the signals were coming from in the appliance, opening the back, or in the case of the fridge the top, finding the wifi chip and pulling it. I've also heard it said that wifi access is desired so system operators can manipulate the appliances as needed. Under any condition: DO NOT WANT.
sleton38234234 4y ago
I hate the fact that i'm forced to buy appliances with these circuits and nonsense apps in them. I dont need my appliance to be "smart". I just need it to do what I want it to do. a washer should just wash, and it should work for a really long time without breaking down.
the_third_wave 4y ago
Oh, I connect the few "smart" devices I have alright but I do not allow them access to the 'net. Anything "smart" is kept in a separate network which terminates on a double-homed container where I try to interface with the things using free software. This often means I need to replace the firmware on the "smart" thing - Tuya-encumbered "smart plugs" get turned into Tasmota-equipped plugs which only communicate with the container, not with some "cloud" somewhere in China - or devise some way to circumvent the cloudy "services" they want to connect to - Midea-compatible heat pumps with OSK-103 "smart" interfaces. Just to show I'm not singling out Chinese "smart" things I put the (Austrian) Fronius inverter in the same walled network where it never connects with the Austrian mothership. This means that any "smart" thing I have - and I do have some since I use these things to plan power consumption based on electricity prices (we have hourly rates) and solar production - never tell their former owners where they are. I'm fine with my equipment having networked features, I just want to be the one in control and I do not want any data to leak. If the things need specific data to work I want to be the one who tells them where to get them, if they need to report some data I want to be the arbiter on whether this is allowed, what is reported and to whom the reports are sent.
twothamendment 4y ago
My GE range is "Smart". I connected it to get updates when I bought it, reported one UI bug when running the latest. They fixed it in about a week. I updated again and promptly took away its Internet privileges. Everything works so I don't see a need for a later update to break something.
sshine 4y ago
My coffee machine has one button. It makes coffee. If I click it a certain way, it cleans the machine. Why does it need wifi?
- m463 4y ago
  security updates.
acdha 4y ago
Our washer broke. I bought a Samsung which was on sale at a great prices. I briefly looked at setting up the app for notifications (it’s in the basement, I work upstairs). Their signup process is absurdly clunky, the EULA signs away everything, and then the app insists you can’t set up the washing machine’s Wi-Fi without giving the app permissions to collect precise location data and run in the background, as if it couldn’t just use Bluetooth to send it 128 bits of text.
deafpolygon 4y ago
They want to sell our information, and nothing really changes for the consumer. If I connect my dishwasher to the wifi, what does that offer me? More advertising? I don't want that. Sign up for an account? To do what exactly? Tweet when I turn it on? When there's a problem, it still doesn't diagnose it for me. I still have to look up some obscure E004 error code that may or may not be in their manual. I have a dryer that gives me a "CARES" alert every 6 months. It just wants to be run in a 'cleaning' cycle - but the manual doesn't tell you how! Presumably so their consumers can call them for support every time it happens. I don't know. I'll never connect an appliance to the network because I know it doesn't need that to function. I don't get any practical benefits from it, aside from being data-mined!
egberts1 4y ago
Appliance makers sad on unused features? You should be sad.

134 points by ctoth 4y ago

I was notified by Samsung that my new washing machine had a recall because the control module could overheat and a firmware fix would prevent any damage. It required me to download the Samsung Smart Things App to my phone, create a Samsung account, connect my washing machine to my WiFi using the app and wait for the washer to decide to download the firmware fix. Connecting a washing machine to the WiFi/Internet made me feel slimy.

PenguinCoder 4y ago
Also affected by that notice, I ended up buying a new washer instead.
radicalbyte 4y ago
I'd call them and have them take the washing machine back.

mikece 4y ago

1. There is too much "Create an account" and "Give us your info" and "agree to these 300 pages of TOS" 2. We want our appliances to work for us rather than for data brokers Now if my washing machine had a web server built in and I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that. In fact, if the smarts on the washing machine didn't phone home without asking me first I might even join it to my home network. But as long as the terms are that I must accept an electronic leash up my ass from the manufacturer with little say in what info they collect or to whom they give it if I want to see the status of my machine remotely then they can get stuffed.

gofreddygo 4y ago
At first, I got excited about IOT showing up and the possibilities. I could automate everything ! Smart lights, smart TV, smart fridge, smart washing machine, smart toaster, smart coffee machine, smart switch, smart plugs, smart lock, smart speaker, smart photo frame .... I spent months, interconnected everything, it felt awesome. Till it didn't. Few years in, I realized what a lie, a mirage it all has been! I bought them to make my life easier, it did the reverse (with some very rare exceptions). I just kept seeing weird bugs, random forced updates, missed schedules, firmware issues, interoperability issues. Then, I started seeing ads in physical mail, emails, even phone calls for new or renewing subscriptions. Real creepy stuff. All this to monitor usage and sell me more stuff ! I pulled the plug, dialed back on everything smart. I then realized I had a hard time getting my hands on products that get the job done and don't force me to connect it to the internet. I'm now monitoring my router logs for weird activity, locking products down and actively figuring out ways to firewall them. Such a waste!
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
3. We want our appliances to work until they break down - not until the company updates the software so they break down faster (or instantly [for our safety of course]) so we need to buy a new appliance.
- mikece 4y ago
  4. We want schematics, details, and parts availability to fix things ourselves (or for our local independent repair person to do it) rather than grovel for a tech who paid the manufacturer for the label of "brand certified" to come overcharge me for a fix that won't really fix the issue completely.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest, what with all the open source companies in recent batches. Give me Bosch, Speedqueen, etc appliance quality with right to repair and I will pay. I want dumb yet sturdy equipment that will last.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      That's not VC. That's just a regular business. Please start it.
    - stagger87 4y ago
      This hypothetical product is not going to come from a YC startup...
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Agreed!
    - fknorangesite 4y ago
      > Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest You have a lot more faith in YC than I do.
H1Supreme 4y ago
> I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that As long as this monitoring system can completely fail, and the machine still works, I'm okay with it. Ultimately, the more shit like this that gets shoved into appliances, the more the cost climbs. And, If I had to guess, actual functionality (eg. washing my clothes) is the target of cost cutting measures. Which is precisely what I don't want in an appliance.
jacquesm 4y ago
And that nice and handy remote update that either disables a bunch of stuff that you already paid for or that bricks a perfectly good piece of hardware if the company goes out of business. https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsung-Bricked-My-Washing-Machine/td-p/2379781 https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsu...
amf12 4y ago
Hopefully, more appliances are Matter based in the future and this won't be necessary.
- ravivooda 4y ago
  I was going to ask about the same; Matter or HomeKit would/should solve the problem of Privacy, right?
  - rodgerd 4y ago
    I seriously doubt that Google would have signed on to Matter if it didn't provide an abundance of ways to gossip about you.
    - Larrikin 4y ago
      Google supporting the standard is irrelevant so long as Home Assistant does. More devices in the eco system at the beginning is a plus for the health of the standard, just don't buy one of their listening devices
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      Google might be pretty much okay only capturing the 99.99% of people who don't think about privacy much, and want the convenience of Google Home and centralized data. Giving a slight nod to the 0.01% might even lead to a decrease in bad PR.
ender341341 4y ago
I use a zigbee smart outlet to monitor the power usage (I have a gas dryer so easier to do than something on 220) and use that to notify when the washer/dryer are done. I do something like if power usage goes above x, then wait till it goes below that for at least 3 minutes and notify me then (exact timing may depend on the washer/dryer)
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  Great idea, thanks for the tip.
- jhot 4y ago
  I do the same with my washer. 100W threshold to know it's running and then has to be below 5W for 3 minutes to be done. ntfy.sh alert is then sent to whoever is home (or just me if nobody is home).
mihaaly 4y ago
A robot vacuum requiring Wifi connection to work with dual HD camera on it and making accurate map of my entire home and proud of having internet access will not only keep me away connecting it to my home Wifi - with devices having sensitive data on - but from buying such device. It happened. I did not find acceptable offline one so I keep vacuuming manually.
- didsomeonesay 4y ago
  Well you're not alone with this view. This is were Valetudo and dustbuilder should be mentioned. With these projects, you can replace the nasty privacy-invasive bits in the vendor's SW stack. There's a buying guide to find a matching rootable robot for your needs: https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots.html https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots... I got a pair of Dreame W10s in the last Black Friday deals and they're a great help. I wish my money wouldn't go towards the vendor crapware that takes extra efforts to get rid of. But i couldn't be happier with the result, having automated the vacuuming and mopping.
  - brnt 4y ago
    Also bought a W10 last BF, worka great without setting up wifi/valetudo.
kentm 4y ago
Appliance makers can't seem to resist trying to push you into an "ecosystem" that they own rather than allow you to use open standards, and its super frustrating. I suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value and delivering customer-centric features, but they're actually pretty customer-hostile by trying to trap us. Note to makers of "smart" appliances: if you want my business then support standard Zigbee or ZWave hubs.
- eternityforest 4y ago
  Most of these devices support Google Home, which isn't ideal, but it does allow cross manufacturer compatibility. There's probably just not much demand for open standards because Home is good enough, up until they take the cloud server down. Matter might improve things a bit.
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  > suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value They know they're not. Developers aren't stupid.
thrashh 4y ago
I think the bigger issue is that the smart features just aren’t useful They’re all just tech demos… and often buggy ones A valuable feature solves a problem
bambax 4y ago
> Now if my washing machine had a web server built in and I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that. How big is your house? And why do you need to know when the cycle is finished? I absolutely do not want a so-called "smart" appliance and will go out of my way not to buy one. I want something with as few buttons as possible, that promises to last a long time.
- ArchOversight 4y ago
  Not the original poster... but wanted to answer anyway. I have ADHD, my washer sending a push notification to my iOS devices (I have LG ThinQ enabled washer/dryer) means I have an alert in a place where I am already looking for alerts that my washing machine is done and I should go move the clothes into the dryer. Before I enabled push notifications for this, my laundry could sometimes sit in the washer for days, getting all nasty and moldy and needing another cycle to be run just to get them clean before throwing them into the dryer. That is why I need to know that the cycle is finished.
jacknews 4y ago
Exactly, I have a LG washer that has a smart feature. But it works by the machine connecting to an LG server, and then their smartphone app connecting to the LG server, and matching up. Needless to say I have never connected it. Why can't they just run a local webserver or API? I'd use that. Even more if it was a documented API and I could write my own automation for it.

mvellandi 4y ago

Better for manufacturers to focus on clear, multichannel product registration, error messages that can be decoded and referenced online, and provide a usb port if necessary for updates.

mikece 4y ago
All while not giving out information relevant to independent repair shops or those who want to service their own appliances. We no longer own anything, we merely lease it from the manufacturer.

dmitrygr 4y ago

I am saddened that 50% of users are idiots enough to give their data away for free like that. We need PSAs about this...

MarkusWandel 4y ago

A work-from-home colleague just lost a work day or two when the manufacturer of his home wi-fi network reached down from the cloud, silently updated the firmware, and introduced flakiness in the process. Imagine that happening to your washing machine, or stove, or fridge. By malice or incompetence, the invisible hand of the cloud reaching down and making a device work differently than you're used to. No thanks. But an easy fix for those recalcitrant 50% like me. Just make the device refuse to function at all unless it has (recent) internet connectivity. Problem solved.

happymellon 4y ago
Solved, or a return.
olivierduval 4y ago
Actually, you'll get a direct return to the store with a big red label "Doesn't work"... and refund
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Yeah. 50% won't voluntarily connect. Maybe 25% will return for refund instead of connect. (And maybe 10% don't even have internet, and aren't going to get it for a washing machine...)
H1Supreme 4y ago
Care to list the brand (model)? That seems insane to me. Firmware upgrades should be deliberate, and done with caution (hopefully starting with a backup).
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Any update should be deliberate. Windows will now just update it self without asking over night. I often wake up, and see that my PC laptop has rebooted into Linux since that’s at the top in the bootloader.

dboreham 4y ago

My Samsung phone has begun offering to pair with washers and dryers in various fast food restaurants I visit. After the third or fourth time, I decided to have fun and accept, but sadly it seems I need to have physical access to complete the process :(

milesvp 4y ago
Yes. Believe it or not, getting certified for a number of standards in the IoT world require some proof that you have access to the device in order to pair with it. This is often something like a button press during the process, but a unique qr code on the device itself can also suffice for some standards.
- fibers 4y ago
  then why even offer this possibility for industrial customers?
robinsonb5 4y ago
My neighbours have accidentally paired with my bluetooth soundbar on a number of occasions. (Fun - if legally dubious - halloween prank: put a load of spooky sound effects on your phone, then wander around town looking for unsecured bluetooth soundbars!)
- nullc 4y ago
  And then find out that someone put a soundbar chip in someone's automated insulin pump. :P
m463 4y ago
I've been wondering about things like this. For example if you don't connect yourr LG subwoofer to wifi, it shows up as an access point, and ios shows an airplay device.

transpute 4y ago

Is there any industry segment where vendors have converged to a common interface for their business customers to configure devices and receive appliance telemetry for private use? How does telemetry data ownership work in regulated industries like airplanes? If there are no commercial precedents, are there open-source firmware or hardware IoT devices setting a good example?

atwebb 4y ago
Waiting for Okta to enter the home appliance game...

airstrike 4y ago

Hacker news user happy that 50% of customers won't connect smart appliances I thought that number would be much lower

roflc0ptic 4y ago
i'm shocked that 50% of people are willing to do it. I wouldn't do it simply for the hassle, setting aside any ideological opposition to mass surveillance by my dishwasher. Having stuff in my friend's "smart home" stop working because there was a hurricane and it couldn't connect to servers far away was also vindicating, tho.
domador 4y ago
Maybe many of us are pleased that ordinary customers are (even unwittingly) falling in line with our own values on security or usability and our own distaste for tech hype. (No, putting something on "the cloud", making an app for it, or making it "smart" doesn't automatically improve a product.)

m3kw9 4y ago

Smart stove internet remotely activate your stove so you can boil water before you arrive home given you have the a pot of water on the correct stove , no thanks.

kneebonian 4y ago
As a security engineer I just heard "Allow anyone to remotely activate your stove and burn down your house while you are sleeping."
hgomersall 4y ago
I actually want a different interface to our induction hob. The magnetic twiddly knob is all very clean-linesy; it's just a bit shit. I want an array of actual buttons. If the manufacturer won't provide me with one, then give me an API so I can make one. But no, they won't surrender any control, so you don't really have a smart anything; instead to have a thing limited by the imagination of a marketing department.
- m463 4y ago
  When I first played with induction stoves, they all had buttons and I just wanted a knob. very few have knobs, unless you spend lots more money.
  - hgomersall 4y ago
    Knobs are good too.
warmlander 4y ago
I wish it were that smart. Perhaps dangerous but potentially useful but all you can do is turn off the stove so even if all the security issues were addressed there is very little value add to connecting your stove to your wifi.

kwertyoowiyop 4y ago

They should try doing it themselves. They’d soon see why.

kwertyoowiyop 4y ago

They’ll have to make their money on $50 refrigerator water filters instead. You know who you are!

somehnguy 4y ago
Samsung? My new home has all Samsung appliances and I was shocked to see that a new fridge water filter was $50. Not a chance I’m paying that. Found a 2 pack of a compatible brand for $20, seems to work fine! If the price were reasonable I would have just bought the Samsung replacements and called it a day. But instead they got $0 of my money.
- radicalbyte 4y ago
  I didn't change it for a decade with no issues. Our water is pretty soft though.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  Manufacturers have started adding RFID tags to those with unique IDs, so not only can they verify they're "genuine" water filters, but also stop you reusing the same RFID tag sticker for multiple filters. GE started this trend, but aren't alone.
  - criddell 4y ago
    GE will send you a bypass insert if you ask for one. I think they are intended for people who have a whole-home filter. Once you have that, you can peel off the RFID tag and stick it in the filter compartment and go back to buying non-RFID filters. On my fridge it lights up the "not-filtering" light, but that's okay by me. I replace the filter every 3 months.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    I'm waiting for the day they shut off your fridge because you bought "unapproved" food. "Incompatible yogurt was detected! To ensure your refrigerator maintains an optimum temperature be sure to buy only GE compatible Chobani™ yogurt and foods from our other "GE Chill Eats®" partners."

jqpabc123 4y ago

Consumers just don't understand how these things help the manufacturer earn a little extra money by invading their privacy. If they only understood how important this is to them, they would be much more cooperative. /sarcasm

maximus-decimus 4y ago
I don't even understand how a washing machine can steal any data worth money. Are they eavesdropping on all network traffic or something?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Just monitoring the line voltage and the frequency with which it runs loads and at what temp will tell you the composition of the occupants of the place where it is located. And probably also whether the people there wfh or go to the office.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    But can you differentiate the dishwasher and washing machine this way? Can you measure the actual wash cycles and settings they used? And more importantly, can the appliance manufacturer sell and profit off of that data? The answers are "maybe", "probably not", and "definitely not", the latter being the most important here.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Absolutely. I don't know where you get your answers but I've seen systems like this in practice and they are uncannily accurate. See also: smart electricity meters.
- robinsonb5 4y ago
  You can tell a lot about someone from how often the washing machine runs, and which modes get used - whether they live alone, have a large family - even whether they have pets - all data that, when tied to a user account which contains your name, address, email address, (inside leg measurement, blood group...) is valuable to advertisers.

asdff 4y ago

Well, there wouldn't be a market for things like the Apple TV or Roku or Firestick or Chromecast if people actually used the smart features on their smart tvs.

garblegarble 4y ago
On the contrary, I used the smart features on my TV and was so horrified by the experience of Samsung cramming ads and unwanted IPTV features into every part of the experience that I bought an Apple TV and disconnected the TV from the network!
- asdff 4y ago
  Xbox has been my media center for 15 years. There's probably plenty of others with a game system relegated to mostly streaming duty these days too.

cpeterso 4y ago

Most users are probably totally unaware of their smart appliances' capabilities or can't figure out the confusing UI. I know that I can't half the time.

TheKnack 4y ago
This. My parents have several smart appliances but were completely unaware. Even if they were aware they wouldn't care. Regardless of one's opinion of the privacy aspect, none of the "smart" functionality their appliances have is worth the time it takes to set it up. It's mostly pointless.
m463 4y ago
And this is why smart users have to live with annoying nag messages and "lets set you up" guided dialogs

paxys 4y ago

I am very technical minded and still struggle to set up most simple smart appliances (switches, plugs, light bulbs). Put it into pairing mode, download an app, create an account, switch wifi networks on your phone, enter your password, switch back, add an Alexa skill... The average user has no chance. I'm surprised the number is as high as 50%.

kneebonian 4y ago
TBH I've found as being a technically minded person I often struggle more to setup supposedly simple things than some of my less technically inclined associates, mostly because I want to understand what it is doing and why, and I want to know what the various switches and fields mean. Whereas most of my other associates are happy to just click "next", "next", "next" and Done.
rodgerd 4y ago
Don't forget "reconfigure your APs because half the devices will error if they see a 5 GHz band"

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

I was just bemoaning this yesterday: There are so many fancy electronic devices that I would love to use, if only the software wasn't hot garbage and actively working against my interests. Smart TV? That'd rock! But no, I'm not going to wait 15 seconds for it to boot, and I'm not going to pay for a device that shows me ads. Wifi-enabled washer/dryer/dishwasher? I'm working out how to retrofit that onto my existing devices! But, y'know, without the cloud and spying. Various "smart home" things? I'm actually happy with zwave et al., because, get this, they let me use my own FOSS against the devices. I mean, I'd prefer a user-flashable ESP8266/ESP32/etc. but I'll take what I can get.

adriancr 4y ago
Smart TV is easy fix, just set up pi hole/separate dnsmasq with whitelist (docker with bridged network on router?) or do something like this on a rp2040 or esp32 https://github.com/AdrianCX/pico_hole https://github.com/AdrianCX/pico_hole > Wifi-enabled washer/dryer/dishwasher? I'm working out how to retrofit that onto my existing devices! Shelly smart plug - set up an app somewhere to poll it and when power usage goes up - washing machine is on, power usage reaches idle for a while - its finished. For other sensors, you mentioned zwave, curious what you're using.
- technofiend 4y ago
  Since I'm already in the Google ecosystem, I purchased a chromecast instead. CC's sport apps for most major streaming services, a decent ten foot interface and if you don't mind telling Google what you're up to, a voice search option. Although I wish it spoke wifi 6e just to get the device out of congested frequencies, many chromecasts also support ethernet. And you can of course dedicate a network segment or vlan to IOT devices and lock down their access however you like.
- nunez 4y ago
  Apparently some smart TVs will hardcode a DNS server IP into some services to work around that.
  - 4y ago

newaccount2021 4y ago

countdown until my washer refuses to start the cycle until the facial recognition registers that my face has been present to watch a two minute ad for Tide of course for a $14.99 monthly subscription to HomeAppliancesPlus I will be able to skip the ads...

barking_biscuit 4y ago
Yeah I wonder how long until they try the business model where the appliances are free, but you have to watch ads each time before you use them?

pb77 4y ago

Samsung TV starts playing ads if it feels you are idle so i don't connect it to internet directly so use a fire stick. I once connected tv to internet to update some firmware but disconnected the same day because of ads. There are also concerns about control, in Texas there were people who signed something that allowed the companies to remotely control their ac, apparently at night time it was turned up to 82, I am worried about what other companies could do like smart washer ( how about allowed to wash cloths only after 10 pm ) or not allowed to use some setting like extra wash etc. What would happen if your account gets locked and you cannot access your smart stove to cook a meal. All those people who posted that their oculus was locked out because their FB account go locked out. In my opinion most of these smart appliances are more of a hassle than worth it.

darkwizard42 4y ago
I agree with a lot of your post, but the Texas example is actually the kind of example I would prefer. Folks were not deceived when they signed up for the process. It was clearly spelled out, enjoy lower rates, but when energy grid gets hot, you might have some conditions throttled resulting in mild discomfort (the exact window of how much this could affect and the minimums was transparently communicated). And it was all opt-IN which I think is again a good thing. I don't like when smart appliances like the Samsung connect to the internet for what I as a consumer hope are good things (like using Netflix with the push of a button, etc.) and instead abuse that by showing me ads -- not something they include very visibly in the agreement or feature sell. It is not transparent and near impossible to opt out of.
- mindslight 4y ago
  What I don't get about signing up to allow your thermostat to be remotely controlled for a discount, is that isn't really easy to circumvent the system? Either the cloud thermostat isn't even connected, or a second thermostat in parallel, or only sign up a thermostat that controls half your load (making the other half work harder), or even just a candle under the thermostat to make it think it's warmer than it is. Making it do what it's advertised to do would either require fully trusting the hardware (and hardware in this case means the whole hvac system), or monitoring a home's electricity usage and having some after the facto punishment (which will only catch the unsophisticated ways of working around it).

andrewia 4y ago

Thinking in terms of the average consumer, I think cybersecurity isn't a major concern, but the hassle of setup is. Most people expect an appliance to do its job with minimal fuss. (This can lead to problems, like how car owners can ignore oil change reminders and disable lane keep assist.) But in general simplicity is a good thing - it reduces the mental overhead needed for home life. For appliance makers, they need to have a better selling point for connectivity. Only a few appliances benefit from automation and remote commands (like thermostats and some light fixtures). Other appliances, like ovens and clothes washers, require physical presence at the start of the cycle, have a predictable runtime, have simple interfaces, and can't predict failures (due to a lack of sensors and cost of further firmware development). So connectivity isn't beneficial.

phpisthebest 4y ago
The pain setup is a long term play. If you already have a GE Washing Machine, with an account when you go to replace your Fringe you will be more prone to buy a GE Fridge so you do not have to setup a Samsung or LG or Whirlpool account...
IMSAI8080 4y ago
I bought a smart tumble drier but never connected it. For me it was a combination of factors. The smarts doesn't really do a lot for me. My house isn't that big, I can hear when it's done because it stops rumbling in the distance. Getting a notification on my phone isn't very useful. It was offputting that it needs an app, and the app was rated 1 star on the play store. Do I want that on my phone? I didn't look into why it was rated like that. Then I started wondering about exactly what Chinese data centre either the drier or the app connects to and decided I didn't need a smart tumbler drier. Not enough in it for me to risk whatever problems it may bring.
cwkoss 4y ago
Appliances that ever need to grant privileged access to an external party (ex. manufacturer webserver or support) should have a physical switch for disabling that capability.
dontlaugh 4y ago

pm2222 4y ago

If your product is useful ppl will sign up. It’s that simple.

MattGrommes 4y ago

My new GE stove actually required me to connect it to wifi before I could use all the various modes it has. I bought it partly because it has an "air fryer" mode but couldn't use it until it was connected. I did it long enough to turn on the features and then blocked its access to the internet in my router. Now even though it's connected to my local wifi, I can't use the things like having an alarm on my phone since it can't connect to the internet. Utter bullshit on every level. My favorite "feature" is that the phone app can turn on the light inside the oven. Which you can only see if you're standing right there, obviously.

mixmastamyk 4y ago
Return it, otherwise how will they know it's defective?
nullc 4y ago
> Now even though it's connected to my local wifi, I can't use the things like having an alarm on my phone since it can't connect to the internet. NAT is partially to thank for that. ... there is pretty much no normie user supportable way of having a device talk to your phone short of having them both phone home to some cloud server. They could support both direct connections for easy cases and expert users AND the cloud nonsense-- but then they'd have to implement their connectivity twice and they'll still end up with more support calls from users in the wrong mode.
- sophacles 4y ago
  > NAT is partially to thank for that. ... there is pretty much no normie user supportable way of having a device talk to your phone short of having them both phone home to some cloud server. isn't this what MDNS is for?
  - mhio 4y ago
    Yep, and zeroconf more generally.
  - nullc 4y ago

moomin 4y ago

If this data is valuable to the manufacturers, they can pay me for it.

solomatov 4y ago

In addition to security and privacy I have two more concerns: - Replacement of nice physical controls with touch screens and touch panels. It's so nice to have tactile feedback when you turn a knob compared to pressing some virtual button. - Introduction of new failure modes which might make devices almost unusable without finding their instruction and following obscure reset procedures, i.e. you turn on some settings, and it's not so easy to turn it off.

baal80spam 4y ago
> Replacement of nice physical controls with touch screens and touch panels. It's so nice to have tactile feedback when you turn a knob compared to pressing some virtual button. Not to mention these appliances are often handled with unclean (slimy, dirty, wet etc.) fingers!
Starwatcher2001 4y ago
>Replacement of nice physical controls with touch screens and touch panels. It's so nice to have tactile feedback when you turn a knob compared to pressing some virtual button. And vital to anyone visually impaired.

cratermoon 4y ago

Honestly I'm surprised that 50% don't connect. As others have suggested, there's probably too much friction to setup. These aren't VCRs, they shouldn't need a tech to install them.

renewiltord 4y ago

I mean, sure, I'll sign up for the whole shebang: smart device, subscription for consumables, automatic service. Whatever. But it has to work, dude. If you're in the business of selling a dishwasher, you are going to suck at the business of selling dishwasher tablets / month. It's going to be more costly, you're going to miss dates, you're going to cock it up when I change my credit card. There is a serious trust issue with these people. I don't think they can do this other thing. I really don't. They lack the organizational expertise. Plus the software they have is shit, so I don't trust them there either. They probably make a damned nice dishwasher motor and nice rotor arms and they can put it all together, but I don't trust them with the other stuff.

sumoboy 4y ago

I have newer GE washer/dryer w/wifi and it's handy to see notifications popup and stats, but it was a hassle to setup. Download app, create account, sign into another app that doesn't like to retain your id/pw, and spend 10-15 minutes per machine while it figures out how to connect. Manufacturers fail to show people with a single sheet of instructions or a QR code linked Youtube video how to get this setup. The assumption everyone is a tech genius at home is insane.

mullingitover 4y ago

The whole point of an appliance is that it's completely reliable and simple. As soon as you want me to add wifi credentials to an appliance, you've made me into the sysadmin for my appliance. Hard pass.

m463 4y ago
iot vendor: "we will sysadmin for you JOHN of 123 MAIN ST, BOISE. with automatic updates and automatic shipment on low toner or dishwasher rinse aid!"

MrMember 4y ago

How long until all appliances come with an integrated cell modem and connect whether you want them to or not?

otikik 4y ago
Faraday Cage
- notpachet 4y ago
  Better yet -- SmartCage. Connect your Faraday Cage to the cloud for the latest product updates, features, and promotional content!
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    You are currently subscribed to our hourly mailing list containing the best deals on data privacy products from our business partners. Are you sure you want to unsubscribe? You will be missing out on the latest offers! Please note that unsubscribing does not change what data we collect about you or the business partners that we share it with. You will only stop receiving our exclusive offers by email.
criddell 4y ago
I think this is probably one of the revenue models for things like Amazon Sidewalk. For the appliance companies, it might be cheaper to offer the installer $25 to make sure the appliance is connected to the internet before they leave. They wouldn't get to 100%, but they would certainly get a lot more.
rodgerd 4y ago
That was part of the hype for 5G in B2B conversations - Telcos have pushed the idea that it will scale in a way that 4G (and earlier) can't, so you could drop 5G on every device in every home, invisible to the occupants and the nominal owners of the devices.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mattgreenrocks 4y ago

It's incredible that corporations can whine to the media about how few people are participating in their new revenue schemes. Your company's need to make money is not my problem. In the indie maker world, low traction just means it isn't meeting a need that hurts enough, so it's time to pack it up and move on. Telling customers they're wrong for not buying from you is quite a look.

MattDemers 4y ago
>Telling customers they're wrong for not buying from you is quite a look. Can't wait until they find some moralistic reasoning that not buying smart = worse environmental choice. Then the true fun will begin.

TavsiE9s 4y ago

I tried connecting two appliances: our fridge and our dishwasher. Both are about three meters away from an access point. I've struggled for hours to get these two appliances to connect to WiFi with the various mobile applications the manufacturers come up with. I gave up and just won't bother anymore.

criddell 4y ago

HP has tried to solve this with some of their multifunction printers (I have an 8720) by having their software refuse to scan until you create an online account and register the printer. They really, really, really want you to subscribe to their ink service.

Starwatcher2001 4y ago
I'd put it back in the box and return it as defective.
- criddell 4y ago
  It worked just fine when I bought it. The “update” was rolled out well past the date I could return it.
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    This and the fact that it's likely a not-updated Linux box with a persistent store of things I've printed are reasons why my HP printer is not connected to any network...

friend_and_foe 4y ago

I'm old enough to remember when the Xbox 360 came out, the PR disaster that was with the tracking and what not. People that say nobody cares about privacy are very wrong, I knew very few people who were happy with that situation and were willing to forego some of the touted service improvements that came wity the surveillance. But look at consoles today. Exactly what people said they didn't want, exactly what these companies said they weren't trying to do, are the norm in the home entertainment industry. And the same will happen with these appliances. The manufacturers are waging a war of attrition on the public, incrementally increasing surveillance and kneecapping their own products to pressure us to accept the surveillance. We become tired, then exhausted and eventually give in, eventually people but those with the most resolve get tired of fighting it. This is where our governments are supposed to step in on our behalf, they're failing us, because they benefit from the surveillance as well. This can't go on indefinitely, and I don't think they see over the horizon on this one.

hbn 4y ago
Are you thinking of the Xbox One? That was the one that, at announcement, was trying to sell itself as an entire entertainment control center for watching TV and whatnot, required always-on Kinect, required a call home every few days to play games you physically owned on discs, etc. And that was basically all walked back, and I don't think the latest generation of consoles does anything like that.
- friend_and_foe 4y ago
  Yes, actually I am. Thanks for correcting me. And currently from my experience you can't play single player on many games without an internet connection and things like that. The only thing I can see that isn't in them is the always on camera, but they've got that sort of stuff in the TV now. The rest of it, requiring an internet connection to phone home, forced updates, non-ownership over the media, all have become the reality at this point.
m463 4y ago
on the other hand, there is https://GOG.com https://GOG.com

civilized 4y ago

Only 50%? It should be 0%. Who on earth bothers to do this. In my experience, smart devices are without exception worse than dumb ones. I have a Nest (came with the house, too lazy to change the mounting and put in something else) and once I had to spend an hour manually clearing all the random recurring temperature changes it had "cleverly" accumulated over months of use and people changing the temp. I had to work quite hard to make this silly device behave in a predictable, controllable, useful way. And that is what is awful about electronics these days. Smart by default, but "smart" is actually dumber than dumb. Just let us have dumb please.

domador 4y ago

I know I'm not the average customer, but by default I'm skeptical that a) the "smart" part of an appliance actually improves the product and b) a public company will refrain from eventually turning a perfectly good standalone product into an unreliable, untrustworthy, brickable rent-seeking service. (Alas, the real reason for low connectivity is surely just the difficulty for the average user of connecting the appliance to Wi-Fi.)

kdamica 4y ago

I don’t even connect my smart TV to the internet. My setup is a windows PC hooked up to the TV with a steam controller to use as mouse and keyboard.

yumraj 4y ago

> That means companies like Whirlpool are missing out on services revenue, which is increasingly crucial to manufacturers facing rising input costs, declining replacement purchases, and hungry shareholders. I'm surprised by the "declining replacement purchases" since based on what I'm seeing/reading/hearing appliance qualities have gone downhill and they have become more complex meaning that more people are replacing their appliances sooner rather than getting them repaired.

happytoexplain 4y ago
This could mean declining replacement purchases from the same company. When I have to replace an appliance, I frequently try a new brand because my experience with appliances is almost universally bad. Edit: Amazingly, 15 minutes after posting this, I discovered my Instant Pot is not heating.

rurp 4y ago

This topic is a sore spot for me because I recently got a "smart" LG washer+dryer set and they are hands down the worst washer and dryer pair I've ever had. In years past I've had good experiences with LG products, but this purchase and the last TV I bought from them are a huge disappointment. The washer/dryer really push you to use their preset modes that are supposed to figure out the right settings. To find out how long a wash cycle is going to take you need to start it, wait while it sits there silently for an interminably long time, before it finally displays a runtime and starts washing. Unfortunately the "smarts" are really dumb. The dryer never gets it right, clothes always come out wet or over-dried; I've had more clothes damaged from this set in a few months than my entire life prior to this set. The worst part is the lack of manual controls. Tasks that used to take a fraction of a second and zero thought on old machines are now difficult or impossible. For example, if the clothes are still damp and I want to run the dryer for another 8 minutes on medium low heat -- too bad. That's literally impossible to do!

dsalzman 4y ago
That's why I bought a washer dryer set from Speed Queen. No smarts - just a few knobs and buttons. They work great!
- m463 4y ago
  you just have to make sure they have a respectable dryness sensor. estimating the time is hard.

happytoexplain 4y ago

In my personal experience, the number one reason people don't connect smart products is because they simply don't know how it would benefit them. They don't read manuals, and the copy on ads and packaging tends to describe the smart features in ambiguous terms. The second most common reason is because, compared to a dumb feature, a smart feature, despite doing something above and beyond the dumb feature: has much worse UX; is brittle in its functionality; is ephemeral in its future availability; and is nebulous in how it works (is this using the internet or just the LAN?). It's a bit like the difference between a mechanical toggle and a touch screen. The third most common reason is because it's just annoying to go through the setup process. Data privacy concerns come in at a vanishingly rare fourth place. Again, these are my personal real-life observations of other people.

shadowgovt 4y ago

"Won't" or "functionally can't?" What percentage of smart appliances require at least one other device to do the connection (be it a smartphone or desktop PC)? The industry has vastly overestimated the median user's technical competency if they require such interconnects.

akomtu 4y ago

In a better society, "smart" features could be used for good. Imagine your car was equipped with numerous sensors that could detect an odd vibration pattern in the engine, notify your mechanic and prevent a 5k repair with a 50 bucks fix.

barking_biscuit 4y ago
And have someone lose out on $5k of your money? Sacrilege!

dusted 4y ago

I'm more worried about the 50% that DO connect their devices.. Don't do that.

kshahkshah 4y ago

I was at Home Depot the other day buying a new washer/dryer. Every 'smart' fridge had a Certificate Error on them. It was pathetic.

alistairSH 4y ago

Surprised we've made it this far without an Ubik reference... The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.

ericra 4y ago

I wonder how much damage printer manufacturers did to consumer trust in this space. Even among non-tech people, it's pretty common knowledge at this point that printers will do a variety of terrible things like completely lock down your hardware if you don't phone home to get updates, use a non-standard or recycled/refilled cartridge, etc. TV manufacturers are catching up here as well with their greedy practices, but the printer stuff has been around forever. It's not a far jump to extend this mistrust to all appliances and be weary of connecting anything to your network that does not require it to function.

fwungy 4y ago

First thing I did when I moved into my rental was disconnect the Wifi from the stove and refrigerator. 1) I don't want wifi on these things. I don't care what they can do for me. 2) I discovered they pump RF that was literally off my meter, making my kitchen an RF kill zone experiment. Now, turning this wifi off was the difficult part. There is no method given in the manuals and even dedicated searching of forums couldn't turn up a magic maintenance code to turn them off. I ended up using my RF meter to hone in on where the signals were coming from in the appliance, opening the back, or in the case of the fridge the top, finding the wifi chip and pulling it. I've also heard it said that wifi access is desired so system operators can manipulate the appliances as needed. Under any condition: DO NOT WANT.

sleton38234234 4y ago

I hate the fact that i'm forced to buy appliances with these circuits and nonsense apps in them. I dont need my appliance to be "smart". I just need it to do what I want it to do. a washer should just wash, and it should work for a really long time without breaking down.

the_third_wave 4y ago

Oh, I connect the few "smart" devices I have alright but I do not allow them access to the 'net. Anything "smart" is kept in a separate network which terminates on a double-homed container where I try to interface with the things using free software. This often means I need to replace the firmware on the "smart" thing - Tuya-encumbered "smart plugs" get turned into Tasmota-equipped plugs which only communicate with the container, not with some "cloud" somewhere in China - or devise some way to circumvent the cloudy "services" they want to connect to - Midea-compatible heat pumps with OSK-103 "smart" interfaces. Just to show I'm not singling out Chinese "smart" things I put the (Austrian) Fronius inverter in the same walled network where it never connects with the Austrian mothership. This means that any "smart" thing I have - and I do have some since I use these things to plan power consumption based on electricity prices (we have hourly rates) and solar production - never tell their former owners where they are. I'm fine with my equipment having networked features, I just want to be the one in control and I do not want any data to leak. If the things need specific data to work I want to be the one who tells them where to get them, if they need to report some data I want to be the arbiter on whether this is allowed, what is reported and to whom the reports are sent.

twothamendment 4y ago

My GE range is "Smart". I connected it to get updates when I bought it, reported one UI bug when running the latest. They fixed it in about a week. I updated again and promptly took away its Internet privileges. Everything works so I don't see a need for a later update to break something.

sshine 4y ago

My coffee machine has one button. It makes coffee. If I click it a certain way, it cleans the machine. Why does it need wifi?

m463 4y ago
security updates.

acdha 4y ago

Our washer broke. I bought a Samsung which was on sale at a great prices. I briefly looked at setting up the app for notifications (it’s in the basement, I work upstairs). Their signup process is absurdly clunky, the EULA signs away everything, and then the app insists you can’t set up the washing machine’s Wi-Fi without giving the app permissions to collect precise location data and run in the background, as if it couldn’t just use Bluetooth to send it 128 bits of text.

deafpolygon 4y ago

They want to sell our information, and nothing really changes for the consumer. If I connect my dishwasher to the wifi, what does that offer me? More advertising? I don't want that. Sign up for an account? To do what exactly? Tweet when I turn it on? When there's a problem, it still doesn't diagnose it for me. I still have to look up some obscure E004 error code that may or may not be in their manual. I have a dryer that gives me a "CARES" alert every 6 months. It just wants to be run in a 'cleaning' cycle - but the manual doesn't tell you how! Presumably so their consumers can call them for support every time it happens. I don't know. I'll never connect an appliance to the network because I know it doesn't need that to function. I don't get any practical benefits from it, aside from being data-mined!

egberts1 4y ago

Appliance makers sad on unused features? You should be sad.