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There are only 39.8 billion US banknotes in circulation, it can easily tracked in a Postgres database, banknote numbers when it exits the ATM, banknote numbers

There are only 39.8 billion US banknotes in circulation, it can easily tracked in a Postgres database, banknote numbers when it exits the ATM, banknote numbers when they are redeemed by the baker, or by your drug dealer of choice, banknotes are only in circulation for one or two exchanges before coming back to a bank, it’s very possible that they are tracked to identify curious loops in circulation. In fact, if they weren’t, that would be unprofessional from the FBI.

dgfitz 4y ago
Please correct me if I’m missing something. You’re describing a map where the key is a note and the value is, a linked list of banks? I’m not clear what the point is that you’re trying to make.
- viraptor 4y ago
  I believe what they're saying is - we have the capability to track every physical banknote as it leaves/enters the bank and attach it to the person who deposits/withdraws it. There may be extra steps in between, but if you're tracking a transaction / relationship type which happens twice or more, you can expect that the person on the record is the person you're after or can point you at them. But I don't know why they expect FBI to actually have it implemented. The system would have to be so widespread/common that we'd know if it existed. I mean, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking but that's for hobbyists. Otherwise banks may check for duplicate numbers... but I can't find any mention of more widespread tracking.
  - freejazz 4y ago
    It also assumes that money doesn't change hands multiple times before going back into another bank.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      You could probably infer a lot without knowing who traded it to who. If say * person A gets 100 banknotes from the bank, gives 50 to person B, * person B pays 25 to person C and 5 back to bank (say, taxes) * person C pays 5 of them to the bank You can infer with some probability who traded what to who.
      - freejazz 4y ago
        Not really. A billion other things also could have happened, they just didn't. Also, when was the last time you deposited cash?
        kelnos 4y ago
        Many people don't, but businesses deposit excess cash daily. Certainly, though, those same businesses keep a lot of cash in order to give change to other customers. But that cash will still likely end up back at a bank before too long.
        freejazz 4y ago
        If it only goes to banks when businesses deposit it, you can't tell anything about the intermediary users
        ilyt 4y ago
        Just because you can't imagine way of tracking it doesn't mean it isn't possible.
        freejazz 4y ago
        Offer one...
    - kelnos 4y ago
      The person who made this point addressed this already: > banknotes are only in circulation for one or two exchanges before coming back to a bank No, you don't get the 100% whole picture, but you can mine a ton out of data points like "note 38573204 was given to John Doe via ATM on 2023-01-10, and returned to bank by Jane Smith (owner of ABC Widgets) on 2023-01-14".
landemva 4y ago
Definitely need higher denomination coins. For now, coins of 1 and .50 work well for coffee shops.
andirk 4y ago
Easily? Tracking a credit card transaction is probably by far the easiest way to track money. And cash being the most difficult. And crypto being both easy and difficult depending on how it's used.
- kelnos 4y ago
  Sure, credit card tracking is much easier, but I wouldn't call the "most difficult" nature of cash to be all that difficult, certainly not for a state actor that heavily regulates its banks.

dgfitz 4y ago

Please correct me if I’m missing something. You’re describing a map where the key is a note and the value is, a linked list of banks? I’m not clear what the point is that you’re trying to make.

viraptor 4y ago
I believe what they're saying is - we have the capability to track every physical banknote as it leaves/enters the bank and attach it to the person who deposits/withdraws it. There may be extra steps in between, but if you're tracking a transaction / relationship type which happens twice or more, you can expect that the person on the record is the person you're after or can point you at them. But I don't know why they expect FBI to actually have it implemented. The system would have to be so widespread/common that we'd know if it existed. I mean, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking but that's for hobbyists. Otherwise banks may check for duplicate numbers... but I can't find any mention of more widespread tracking.
- freejazz 4y ago
  It also assumes that money doesn't change hands multiple times before going back into another bank.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    You could probably infer a lot without knowing who traded it to who. If say * person A gets 100 banknotes from the bank, gives 50 to person B, * person B pays 25 to person C and 5 back to bank (say, taxes) * person C pays 5 of them to the bank You can infer with some probability who traded what to who.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      Not really. A billion other things also could have happened, they just didn't. Also, when was the last time you deposited cash?
      - kelnos 4y ago
        Many people don't, but businesses deposit excess cash daily. Certainly, though, those same businesses keep a lot of cash in order to give change to other customers. But that cash will still likely end up back at a bank before too long.
        freejazz 4y ago
        If it only goes to banks when businesses deposit it, you can't tell anything about the intermediary users
        ilyt 4y ago
        Just because you can't imagine way of tracking it doesn't mean it isn't possible.
        freejazz 4y ago
        Offer one...
  - kelnos 4y ago
    The person who made this point addressed this already: > banknotes are only in circulation for one or two exchanges before coming back to a bank No, you don't get the 100% whole picture, but you can mine a ton out of data points like "note 38573204 was given to John Doe via ATM on 2023-01-10, and returned to bank by Jane Smith (owner of ABC Widgets) on 2023-01-14".

landemva 4y ago

Definitely need higher denomination coins. For now, coins of 1 and .50 work well for coffee shops.

andirk 4y ago

Easily? Tracking a credit card transaction is probably by far the easiest way to track money. And cash being the most difficult. And crypto being both easy and difficult depending on how it's used.

kelnos 4y ago
Sure, credit card tracking is much easier, but I wouldn't call the "most difficult" nature of cash to be all that difficult, certainly not for a state actor that heavily regulates its banks.