11 ms·

I wish you would take cash. Every other method of payment gets tracked and is used to profile people

by barbariangrunge 4y ago

kenjackson 4y ago
You can buy a gift credit/debit card with cash and use that. Those normally work.
- sneak 4y ago
  Those are tracked, too, and can't be obtained without strong identity.
  - skeeter2020 4y ago
    ...and often have expiry dates and huge service fees
  - iancarroll 4y ago
    Disposable gift cards are widely available in the US that will run as debit/credit without any need for identity verification. They are disposable, though, and as the other comment mentions aren't very economical (~1% outright in fees if you buy in $500 increments).
    - kenjackson 4y ago
      Amex has gift cards with no expiry and no processing fees after purchase. The price on a $3000 card is $5.95. Which is about 0.2%.
      - Larrikin 4y ago
        Is this only through a web portal that is tied directly to your bank account? Do you have a link? Such a card, if it exist, would quickly be the most popular card on all churning and credit card reward forums. Also if it exist but requires a bank account or Amex credit card to purchase, it goes back again to being pointless for the people who can't get banking services and rely on cash.
eastbound 4y ago
There are only 39.8 billion US banknotes in circulation, it can easily tracked in a Postgres database, banknote numbers when it exits the ATM, banknote numbers when they are redeemed by the baker, or by your drug dealer of choice, banknotes are only in circulation for one or two exchanges before coming back to a bank, it’s very possible that they are tracked to identify curious loops in circulation. In fact, if they weren’t, that would be unprofessional from the FBI.
- dgfitz 4y ago
  Please correct me if I’m missing something. You’re describing a map where the key is a note and the value is, a linked list of banks? I’m not clear what the point is that you’re trying to make.
  - viraptor 4y ago
    I believe what they're saying is - we have the capability to track every physical banknote as it leaves/enters the bank and attach it to the person who deposits/withdraws it. There may be extra steps in between, but if you're tracking a transaction / relationship type which happens twice or more, you can expect that the person on the record is the person you're after or can point you at them. But I don't know why they expect FBI to actually have it implemented. The system would have to be so widespread/common that we'd know if it existed. I mean, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking but that's for hobbyists. Otherwise banks may check for duplicate numbers... but I can't find any mention of more widespread tracking.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      It also assumes that money doesn't change hands multiple times before going back into another bank.
      - ilyt 4y ago
        You could probably infer a lot without knowing who traded it to who. If say * person A gets 100 banknotes from the bank, gives 50 to person B, * person B pays 25 to person C and 5 back to bank (say, taxes) * person C pays 5 of them to the bank You can infer with some probability who traded what to who.
bmitc 4y ago
That is a pretty fringe worry of tracking that places a major burden on the business. While I am no fan of the amount of tracking going on, I'd say this is pretty far down the list. You're still tracked when you pull out cash. Credit cards have quite a bit of protection on them.
- inetknght 4y ago
  > Credit cards have quite a bit of protection on them. "Quite a bit" is not the same as "to my satisfaction when traveling"
  - kelnos 4y ago
    "Quite a bit" is a lot better than "it's gone forever without any recourse", which is the "protection level" of cash.
    - inetknght 4y ago
      It's even worse: I've spent time on the phone with banks trying to get my money back without any effect. I wouldn't have spent that time if I'd spent cash in the first place. "It's gone forever without any recourse" certainly isn't exclusive to cash. And it can be expensive to even try.
- freejazz 4y ago
  >That is a pretty fringe worry of tracking that places a major burden on the business. Taking cash? It's illegal in NYC not to... Not sure how fringe that is.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    It's not illegal because of tracking worries, it's illegal because cashless businesses discriminate against the large population of under- and un-banked people who live in NYC.
    - 4y ago
parallel 4y ago
Is this where cryptocurrencies come in? The convenience of a cashless transaction without the tracking.
- ilyt 4y ago
  If any of them worked sensibly as currency, maybe. But end result would probably be "the crypto transaction processor" most companies taking crypto use getting all the info needed to link person with their money anyway.
- TylerE 4y ago
  Uh? I got bad news for you. Crypto is by far the LEAST private method.
  - sph 4y ago
    But it's not a monopoly skimming off my purchases either.
    - TylerE 4y ago
      And? Not relevant to the discussion
    - TchoBeer 4y ago
      true, it's a vast decentralized system skimming off your purchases.
- andirk 4y ago
  I use Bitpay for some small-ish things. For small transactions, though, cash or credit card works best. Lol the simple mention, and not even favourably, of crypto in an extremely relevant context gets a DVote. It's like mentioning Joe Rogan.
- nicbou 4y ago
  Cryptocurrency exposed thousands of pedophiles a few years ago. It stores a record of every transaction. They just had to connect the dots starting from the wallet of the CSAM website. Blockchain sleuthing had become much more commonplace since then. If you have a public ledger, you don't need names to identify people's wallets.
red-iron-pine 4y ago
Your cellphone is doing far, far more to profile you than any $5 spend at a local coffee shop would. All a CC company would know is you like expensive lattes; your cellphone would know how long you stayed there, where you say in the joint, and how many memes you looked at before you left. And might overhear everything you say, including your order. If you're using any sort of digital payment or points app on your phone it'll probably know your order, too. Listen, most places should take cash, but this is silly.

I wish you would take cash. Every other method of payment gets tracked and is used to profile people

kenjackson 4y ago

You can buy a gift credit/debit card with cash and use that. Those normally work.

sneak 4y ago
Those are tracked, too, and can't be obtained without strong identity.
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  ...and often have expiry dates and huge service fees
- iancarroll 4y ago
  Disposable gift cards are widely available in the US that will run as debit/credit without any need for identity verification. They are disposable, though, and as the other comment mentions aren't very economical (~1% outright in fees if you buy in $500 increments).
  - kenjackson 4y ago
    Amex has gift cards with no expiry and no processing fees after purchase. The price on a $3000 card is $5.95. Which is about 0.2%.
    - Larrikin 4y ago
      Is this only through a web portal that is tied directly to your bank account? Do you have a link? Such a card, if it exist, would quickly be the most popular card on all churning and credit card reward forums. Also if it exist but requires a bank account or Amex credit card to purchase, it goes back again to being pointless for the people who can't get banking services and rely on cash.

eastbound 4y ago

There are only 39.8 billion US banknotes in circulation, it can easily tracked in a Postgres database, banknote numbers when it exits the ATM, banknote numbers when they are redeemed by the baker, or by your drug dealer of choice, banknotes are only in circulation for one or two exchanges before coming back to a bank, it’s very possible that they are tracked to identify curious loops in circulation. In fact, if they weren’t, that would be unprofessional from the FBI.

dgfitz 4y ago
Please correct me if I’m missing something. You’re describing a map where the key is a note and the value is, a linked list of banks? I’m not clear what the point is that you’re trying to make.
- viraptor 4y ago
  I believe what they're saying is - we have the capability to track every physical banknote as it leaves/enters the bank and attach it to the person who deposits/withdraws it. There may be extra steps in between, but if you're tracking a transaction / relationship type which happens twice or more, you can expect that the person on the record is the person you're after or can point you at them. But I don't know why they expect FBI to actually have it implemented. The system would have to be so widespread/common that we'd know if it existed. I mean, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_bill_tracking but that's for hobbyists. Otherwise banks may check for duplicate numbers... but I can't find any mention of more widespread tracking.
  - freejazz 4y ago
    It also assumes that money doesn't change hands multiple times before going back into another bank.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      You could probably infer a lot without knowing who traded it to who. If say * person A gets 100 banknotes from the bank, gives 50 to person B, * person B pays 25 to person C and 5 back to bank (say, taxes) * person C pays 5 of them to the bank You can infer with some probability who traded what to who.

bmitc 4y ago

That is a pretty fringe worry of tracking that places a major burden on the business. While I am no fan of the amount of tracking going on, I'd say this is pretty far down the list. You're still tracked when you pull out cash. Credit cards have quite a bit of protection on them.

inetknght 4y ago
> Credit cards have quite a bit of protection on them. "Quite a bit" is not the same as "to my satisfaction when traveling"
- kelnos 4y ago
  "Quite a bit" is a lot better than "it's gone forever without any recourse", which is the "protection level" of cash.
  - inetknght 4y ago
    It's even worse: I've spent time on the phone with banks trying to get my money back without any effect. I wouldn't have spent that time if I'd spent cash in the first place. "It's gone forever without any recourse" certainly isn't exclusive to cash. And it can be expensive to even try.
freejazz 4y ago
>That is a pretty fringe worry of tracking that places a major burden on the business. Taking cash? It's illegal in NYC not to... Not sure how fringe that is.
- kelnos 4y ago
  It's not illegal because of tracking worries, it's illegal because cashless businesses discriminate against the large population of under- and un-banked people who live in NYC.
  - 4y ago

parallel 4y ago

Is this where cryptocurrencies come in? The convenience of a cashless transaction without the tracking.

ilyt 4y ago
If any of them worked sensibly as currency, maybe. But end result would probably be "the crypto transaction processor" most companies taking crypto use getting all the info needed to link person with their money anyway.
TylerE 4y ago
Uh? I got bad news for you. Crypto is by far the LEAST private method.
- sph 4y ago
  But it's not a monopoly skimming off my purchases either.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    And? Not relevant to the discussion
  - TchoBeer 4y ago
    true, it's a vast decentralized system skimming off your purchases.
andirk 4y ago
I use Bitpay for some small-ish things. For small transactions, though, cash or credit card works best. Lol the simple mention, and not even favourably, of crypto in an extremely relevant context gets a DVote. It's like mentioning Joe Rogan.
nicbou 4y ago
Cryptocurrency exposed thousands of pedophiles a few years ago. It stores a record of every transaction. They just had to connect the dots starting from the wallet of the CSAM website. Blockchain sleuthing had become much more commonplace since then. If you have a public ledger, you don't need names to identify people's wallets.

red-iron-pine 4y ago

Your cellphone is doing far, far more to profile you than any $5 spend at a local coffee shop would. All a CC company would know is you like expensive lattes; your cellphone would know how long you stayed there, where you say in the joint, and how many memes you looked at before you left. And might overhear everything you say, including your order. If you're using any sort of digital payment or points app on your phone it'll probably know your order, too. Listen, most places should take cash, but this is silly.