5 ms·

The existence of restaurants, barber shops, delivery services, all over the world in first world and developing countries indicates it's possible to run a busin

The existence of restaurants, barber shops, delivery services, all over the world in first world and developing countries indicates it's possible to run a business successfully without relying on charity or variable pricing models.

tptacek 4y ago
Cost sharing isn't charity.
- Larrikin 4y ago
  A business that can't stay open when consumers pay the price for their services or goods is absolutely relying on charity donations to stay open.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I don't follow. When you pay for a meal with the tip, you are paying the price for the services and goods.
    - Larrikin 4y ago
      When I pay for a meal in Japan (often times with better, fresher ingredients, and prepared with more care) I pay for the meal and the service without a tip. It is the norm all over the world. What makes the US so special that we have to provide charity on top of the price of the meal.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        As has been explained repeatedly, you're not providing charity; you are sharing some of the restaurant's labor cost. When you refuse to tip, you aren't withholding charity; you're refusing payment. Why does Japan do this differently? Japan is a different place.
        Zxian 4y ago
        The business transaction between me and a restaurant is for the food and service they provide. I pay the restaurant, the restaurant pays the labour. Refusing to tip isn't refusing payment. If it were, I'd be illegal (i.e. theft). Labelling this as "sharing the labour cost" is precisely the problem at hand. If I hand my pizza delivery driver a $5 bill, I intend it to be a bonus for the driver, not a subsidy for the business. I have zero incentive to pay the business any more than the prices they advertise.
        tptacek 4y ago
        No, in an American restaurant, the business transaction is between you, the restaurant, and your server. You are explicitly given permission to refuse (extra) payment to your server, and the restaurant (to a limited extent) backstops that risk for the employee. You're going to have bad relationships (and experiences) with American restaurants if you make a habit of undertipping.
        vuln 4y ago
        In an American retail or grocery store is my business transaction between me, the store and the cashier? What's the difference between a server and a cashier? One walks between point a and b instead of standing in place? How much should I tip a cashier; 20% of the cost of my groceries?
        tptacek 4y ago
        No, grocery stores aren't restaurants. The difference is restaurants elect to establish different terms.
        vuln 4y ago
        If my grocery store has a hot bar of to go food that is packaged by the employee and handed to me to eat on their patio or take home. Should I tip that employee? If they worked at a restaurant they would tipped. My point is the waiter chooses to take less pay in hope of a tip, while the grocery store employee would rather know what their check is going to be and have stable reliable verifiable income. Wait staff don't have that. They make $0 on paper, they take the risk to avoid taxes, while the grocery store employee pays their "fair" share of taxes and social programs. While the waitstaff complains about tips and not earning a living wage. Complaining about a job they chose when there is a multitude of jobs that you know exactly what you're getting paid based on your hours. All this being said I do tip. I don't mind it. I find it hilarious when they spin the iPad around around to "answer a few questions" ie "please please tip me, I'm not gonna look or judge you but I am going to look and judge you and most likely passive aggressively spell and say your name wrong to show you why you should tip better!!"
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  It is when it's optional. Charity with a guilt trip.
godelski 4y ago
To specifically counter Tp's claims, I think we should note that these services also have plenty of friendly relationships between employees and customers.
- tptacek 4y ago
  That's explicitly part of the idea.

tptacek 4y ago

Cost sharing isn't charity.

Larrikin 4y ago
A business that can't stay open when consumers pay the price for their services or goods is absolutely relying on charity donations to stay open.
- tptacek 4y ago
  I don't follow. When you pay for a meal with the tip, you are paying the price for the services and goods.
  - Larrikin 4y ago
    When I pay for a meal in Japan (often times with better, fresher ingredients, and prepared with more care) I pay for the meal and the service without a tip. It is the norm all over the world. What makes the US so special that we have to provide charity on top of the price of the meal.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      As has been explained repeatedly, you're not providing charity; you are sharing some of the restaurant's labor cost. When you refuse to tip, you aren't withholding charity; you're refusing payment. Why does Japan do this differently? Japan is a different place.
      - Zxian 4y ago
        The business transaction between me and a restaurant is for the food and service they provide. I pay the restaurant, the restaurant pays the labour. Refusing to tip isn't refusing payment. If it were, I'd be illegal (i.e. theft). Labelling this as "sharing the labour cost" is precisely the problem at hand. If I hand my pizza delivery driver a $5 bill, I intend it to be a bonus for the driver, not a subsidy for the business. I have zero incentive to pay the business any more than the prices they advertise.
        tptacek 4y ago
        No, in an American restaurant, the business transaction is between you, the restaurant, and your server. You are explicitly given permission to refuse (extra) payment to your server, and the restaurant (to a limited extent) backstops that risk for the employee. You're going to have bad relationships (and experiences) with American restaurants if you make a habit of undertipping.
        vuln 4y ago
        In an American retail or grocery store is my business transaction between me, the store and the cashier? What's the difference between a server and a cashier? One walks between point a and b instead of standing in place? How much should I tip a cashier; 20% of the cost of my groceries?
        tptacek 4y ago
        No, grocery stores aren't restaurants. The difference is restaurants elect to establish different terms.
        vuln 4y ago
        If my grocery store has a hot bar of to go food that is packaged by the employee and handed to me to eat on their patio or take home. Should I tip that employee? If they worked at a restaurant they would tipped. My point is the waiter chooses to take less pay in hope of a tip, while the grocery store employee would rather know what their check is going to be and have stable reliable verifiable income. Wait staff don't have that. They make $0 on paper, they take the risk to avoid taxes, while the grocery store employee pays their "fair" share of taxes and social programs. While the waitstaff complains about tips and not earning a living wage. Complaining about a job they chose when there is a multitude of jobs that you know exactly what you're getting paid based on your hours. All this being said I do tip. I don't mind it. I find it hilarious when they spin the iPad around around to "answer a few questions" ie "please please tip me, I'm not gonna look or judge you but I am going to look and judge you and most likely passive aggressively spell and say your name wrong to show you why you should tip better!!"
Dylan16807 4y ago
It is when it's optional. Charity with a guilt trip.

godelski 4y ago

To specifically counter Tp's claims, I think we should note that these services also have plenty of friendly relationships between employees and customers.

tptacek 4y ago
That's explicitly part of the idea.