11 ms·

How we turned the tables to catch my sister’s Bumble stalker

242 points by behnamoh 4y ago

Lammy 4y ago
TL;DR: Guy selling surveillance likes surveillance
- motoxpro 4y ago
  This made my day. Thank you.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ketzo 4y ago
Maybe obvious, but uh: don’t fucking do this! I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify the police" and went straight to "seek out in-person confrontation" is insane! Stalkers are not people in their right mind. Staking out and planning to “citizen’s arrest”(???) someone who has repeatedly visited late at night to threaten and harass is NOT SAFE FOR ANYONE INVOLVED. Do not ever physically escalate with a stalker! Collect evidence and get the authorities involved!
- tantalor 4y ago
  The part that jumped out was, > we get ready to make a “citizen’s arrest” That is so stupid. They are very lucky they didn't get the chance to try that.
  - Major_Grooves 4y ago
    it's Scotland. Making a citizen's arrest is not so crazy.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  The problem is the cops tend not to give a shit.
  - ketzo 4y ago
    I understand that. But you cannot assume they won't help. These guys didn't even try contacting the police before hatching a late-night scheme. For what it's worth, in my (regrettably several) experiences with stalkers/harassers, this situation would have been taken extremely seriously. "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get.
    - MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
      Except they did: >Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly.
      - Major_Grooves 4y ago
        Thank you.
    - jemfinch 4y ago
      Please stop repeating this falsehood. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
      - Major_Grooves 4y ago
        Exactly.
    - genocidicbunny 4y ago
      I know this story is in the UK, but at least in the US you absolutely should assume they will not help, and depending on the circumstances will make the situation even worse. They have no duty to do anything to help, and no consequences if they don't. > "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get. Or alternatively its an invitation for a police officer or a department to suddenly need to do a lot of work that they could just...not do. No skin off their back if someone is being harassed or stalked, and if something worse happens, they can investigate then. Why spend the resources now after all?
- zxexz 4y ago
  Citizens Arrests are very dangerous and pretty much never worth the risk. Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    If only the police we pay for were held to the same standards as other citizens.
    - zxexz 4y ago
      Not sure why you're being downvoted. The seems pretty reasonable to me.
  - gggggg5 4y ago
    >Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge. In England and Wales you merely need a reasonable belief, the person not being convicted does not automatically open you up to trouble any more than it would open up a police officer to trouble. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A
- bigpeach 4y ago
  I thought this too. But you can feel incredibly powerless if all you do is “let the police handle it.” Even in this instance, nothing would have come of it had they not traced the guy. Prosecution of crime happens after a crime is committed. Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. Even if stalking is illegal, cops won’t / can’t feasibly spend the resources investigating and punishing stalkers. Even prosecuting sexual assault (ie. after a serious crime has been committed) is extremely difficult. What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? Speaking from personal experience, the lip service of “cops are there to protect you” is inadequate. It didn’t provide any safety, and I can’t see how, structurally, it even could.
  - ketzo 4y ago
    Yeah, but like... they didn't even "let the police handle it." They just went straight to "late-night stakeout." > Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. You're right, and that would be a scary situation... if they didn't have more than enough evidence for the police to get involved. Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. > What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). Stalkers/harassers can make people feel extremely helpless, and yes, there are a lot of really horrible situations where cops are useless despite an obvious threat. This... is not one of those situations.
    - kanyethegreat 4y ago
      > Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. Restraining order against whom exactly? The masked man? Also, what tactical protection do you think a restraining order provides against someone with actual intent to harm? > In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). All good suggestions. Unfortunately, everything other than self-defense is a temporary (and likely not sustainable) countermeasure. Regarding the self-defense strategy, barring effective weapon use, the odds aren't in the target's favor given 1/ the size discrepancy (they even talk about how burly the stalker was) and 2/ the fact that the assailant has the element of surprise. It's sad that the only viable option seems to be "carry a weapon, train in martial arts, wait for an incident and hope you're able to defend against it." This is not preventative. It's reactionary. > This... is not one of those situations. I disagree.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  It is hilarious that you think the police would give a shit.
  - ketzo 4y ago
    We have no way of knowing if they would have given a shit, because they literally didn't even try before planning a late-night stakeout. Yeah, cops can be really shitty about domestic violence and harassment. But, uh, as opening statements go, it's hard to do much stronger than: "Hello officer! I have video evidence of masked guy repeatedly visiting at night to write threatening messages on the car of a woman living alone"
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      You call the police a few times in your life and learn they are useless. Then you either experience or hear about times when calling them ended worse for the caller than if they'd just never bothered at all. Maybe this isn't true for where you live, your income bracket, or your skin tone, but it is definitely true for a lot of people.
    - gghffguhvc 4y ago
      From the article: "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  Possibly different in Scotland? They mention at least making an effort to figure out the laws that apply to them.
- entwife 4y ago
  Hi, Where I live the police won't get seriously involved unless someone is injured or dead. I prefer not to wait that long.
  - sammalloy 4y ago
    I’m not sure if this is a regional thing; police are like this just about everywhere. In my region, most of the people in my community have all stopped calling the emergency services line to report crimes in progress because the dispatch yells and screams and berates the callers. There’s a Facebook group for my local town with dozens of people who say they don’t call anymore because of this. At some point, the police transitioned from preventing and fighting crime to arguing in court that they don’t have the duty to protect. Not sure how it happened or why, but it’s making things worse. Many people no longer see the police as part of the local community but as an organized gang that terrorizes people for small infractions while ignoring major crimes in progress. No amount of patriotism, flag waving, or bumper stickers can change this perception.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Where is this awful place? It sounds like it's in the US; can you say which state at least?
      - mgarfias 4y ago
        No police force in the US has a duty to protect. See: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9108468254125174344&q=warren-v-district-of-columbia&hl=en&as_sdt=2006 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=910846825412517...
    - ARandomerDude 4y ago
      > Not sure how it happened or why Obviously police are a diverse group, but certainly no white male police officer in his right mind would risk a violent encounter with a minority suspect in today’s political environment. If I were a cop, I’d get another job ASAP and focus on paperwork until I found one.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  >I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify the police" and went straight to "seek out in-person confrontation" is insane! Unless you have independently evidence (that can be independently verified) of a better than misdemeanor crime police almost certainly aren't gonna do squat other than put you on a list of "people with motive" to check up on when the dude you're after gets shwacked by someone else he's wronged.
- isk517 4y ago
  While I do agree that what they did is risky, the article does mention that the police had already been notified after previous incidents. Of course if they failed to alert the police after they had the video evidence of the same guy vandalizing the car night after night then I will fully agree complete idiots, otherwise I can sympathize with their desire to go above and beyond to help their sister.
  - Major_Grooves 4y ago
    "Complete idiots"might be a slight exaggeration, but hey no offence taken. iirc they knew we had video, but the video of the car vandalism was never going to be enough to do anything. They had not seen that specific video. In the end it was only a small part of the evidence package.
    - isk517 4y ago
      Thanks for the response. Just to clarify, the 'complete idiots' comment was only applicable in the event you had completely ignored the police while gathering the evidence. Since you seemed to have been in contact with them and realized they were not going to act I honestly applaud you and brother for taking steps to ensure your sister doesn't end up as a 'statistic' as they say.
- korroziya 4y ago
  [flagged]
- thenayr 4y ago
  [dead]
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  Note: Scotland. Different rules.
- gghffguhvc 4y ago
  I agree. However it is worth noting that the sister had been to the police quite a bit by the sounds of it. "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
- femto 4y ago
  "Collect evidence and get the authorities involved!" is excellent advice. Though if other options were exhausted, I'd be more prepared to "give it a go" in the UK than in the US. Stricter gun laws mean you're unlikely to be confronted with a firearm, and if outnumbered and tempers are kept at bay the person would be more likely to run or surrender. Think I would have had more than two people on my side.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    So you confront someone you think is a criminal with a group of men and get into a brawl. How much time are you willing to spend in jail? Even if the gent is a stalker and you are right - you still instigated a brawl! You still assaulted (or more) someone. If your thought process is "ah but he won't have a gun! My lads and me will really have an easy time now!" that may be a sign you are doing something unwise. And what if he does have a knife or improvised weapon? Are you looking forward to explaining to your buds wife why he's room temp in the morgue over a stalker?
    - femto 4y ago
      > you still instigated a brawl! Why go in with an assumption that violence is going to occur? That's a recipe for trouble. You would have to pick your friends carefully, so none of them loose their cool. If there is going to be violence or any contact, let the stalker initiate it. I'm not arguing that it would be risk free or a lark. It's a case of accepting the risks and being happy that the likely outcome would justify the risks.
      - vorpalhex 4y ago
        If you don't believe violence is going to occur, why not go alone?
        barry-cotter 4y ago
        The point of going with a group of friends is to make it clear to the person you are implicitly threatening that if there is a fight they will lose. The more unbalanced the forces on each side the less likely the weaker side is to initiate violence.
- n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
  Cowardice: the post. Cops won’t care or do anything near me. Dangerous confrontation > dead/raped sister any day of the week.
  - shbooms 4y ago
    Right but the point is you at least need to notfiy them first and give them the chance to do something. If you're unsatified with what they've done, or lack thereof, then sure.
    - JimtheCoder 4y ago
      "Hello, 911? I'd like to report a stalker. If you don't handle it in 30 minutes or less, I will attack. I woke up today and chose violence..."
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - type0 4y ago
        > or less, I will attack. Copy written lyrics so they can't be stolen If they are, Snap! Don't need the police To try to save them, your voice will cease So please, stay off my back Or I will attack, and you don't want that
    - jemfinch 4y ago
      The point isn't a point at all, since their sister had already notified the police and given them a chance to do something. Read the article: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
  - throwaway292939 4y ago
    Who said those are the only two choices available? False dichotomy
- pnw 4y ago
  The post indicates they had previously notified the police. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
- MisterTea 4y ago
  Trying to confront chase the perp was indeed a dumb idea. Though if you read the article they appear to have made multiple reports in the past. Thing is with police reports like this is by the time they arrive they only "see" vandalism which is all they can put in their report. Anything else you tell them is taken with a grain of salt, they arent psychics. In order for them to become actively involved they need to see the crime in progress or be presented with solid evidence. In the latter case you need to hire a private detective or DiY which is what they chose to do here.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Also from a legal standpoint, if you end up in court trying to get a restraining order or by pressing charges, it's going to look awful if you did something like this. Unfortunately, you want to look like a perfect victim if you're going before a judge over something like this. Same goes if you want law enforcement to take you seriously. It's hard enough to get them to take stalking victims seriously as it is. But I also get it. The chances of the law doing anything about the stalker are slim to none even if you are a perfect victim.
- csours 4y ago
  Is there a prospective randomized controlled trial on which intervention is safest and most effective? No? Hmmm.
- sannee 4y ago
  I do not think the article implied that this was safe in any way. Sometimes doing something unsafe is the only way to accomplish a task.
- valdiorn 4y ago
  definitely get it on record with the police, but you must realise that the police will do fuck-all about it until it escalates into something much more serious, and often, it's too late at that point. Taking matters into your own hands is often the only way of dealing with it -albeit there are safer ways of going about it.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  This is only good advice in a society of law and order where crimes are prosecuted and punished appropriately. Whether that fits the UK is a matter for debate. For reasons people might believe that see the incredibly long thread linked below. There’s no Spanish reason to believe the police would have investigated and arrested a stalker just because there was copious evidence to prosecute. > Norwich man leaves his victim with permanent facial scarring after glassing him in a nightclub row over his feet being on a seat. Ordered to pay £175 compensation with a suspended sentence edp24.co.uk/news/23243869.… via @Norfolkforever https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t... > Disqualified driver kills a cyclist while doing 80 in a 30mph zone, leaves him to die while he escapes, Despite ten prior convictions for 20 offences, gets less than 5 years (so will serve 2 and a half) Also banned from driving - for 5 just years https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t... > Last year at least 58 people were murdered by criminals let out early on probation. Many of those had been let out early for extremely violent offences express.co.uk/news/uk/172127… (*55 killers, at least one killed multiple people) https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t...
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Save your breath for telling the stalker: don't fucking do this!
- wpietri 4y ago
  Do you have experience getting the cops involved in something like this? Because from what I've read, it's at best hit or miss depending on jurisdiction and circumstance. That's not to say that a citizen's arrest is a good idea, mind you. Just that getting the authorities involved may not be effective.
- dqpb 4y ago
  The instinct to defend yourself and your loved ones is a heuristic policy trained over millions of years. Certainly there is a good reason for this. By the way, remember when less than a year ago 376 police officers stood around while a deranged gunman murdered 19 highschool students, serving no other purpose than to prevent anyone from entering the school and saving the students? Nobody cares about your safety as much as you and your family do.
- justatdotin 4y ago
  some of us do not like to deal with police.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Eh, the police are pretty useless. Unless the situation is obvious, easy, and very serious, don’t expect much. Yea confronting a stalker isn’t safe, duh. I don’t know who would go into an endeavor like that expecting such. What you need to do is make sure that you aren’t inviting serious legal consequences on yourself with your plans (or that you know and accept the risks).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- speg 4y ago
  The police had been informed prior to the stakeout. A citizens arrest is a well-known thing, why the ??? This isn’t America, where everyone may be yielding a firearm.
  - Major_Grooves 4y ago
    aye, exactly. I presume most of the people criticising our "citizen's arrest" idea are form the US, where I indeed would not have contemplated doing such a thing. In Scotland I do not really have the same fear. Not sure I would do the same thing in Glasgow or London, but still, we are not idiots, we were not going to take any crazy risks but we figured the risk to us was worth it to stop the risk to our sister. We weighed the risks up.
- jemfinch 4y ago
  It was buried, so you might have missed it: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents." They didn't skip the police at all: the police simply weren't doing anything until they had more information.
- scotty79 4y ago
  I don't think anybody skipped "notify the police". He mentiones police was informed multiple times about incidents with a car. They just didn't bother to do anything until the guy was served to them on a silver platter. Even after police was given plates of the guy (seen on two consecutive days) they said, you must be wrong, car's from Yorkshire, as if the main feature of the cars wasn't that they can move from Yorkshire to wherever.
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  You might be right, but most of the time authorities don't do shit. I remember a situation where a friend (SF Bay Area) managed to identify the location of his stolen bike, police didn't care and didn't do anything. I agree that caution is necessary, but I wouldn't be expecting much from the police.
- yosito 4y ago
  This is highly context dependent. The police are not reliable in many (probably most) places in the world. In many places you're much better off with a direct confrontation.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  Hi, this is my article. I know it's a long read, but I presume you didn't read the whole article. We certainly didn't skip notifying the police. The whole point of the article is that we did the opposite - gathered enough evidence so that the police could do their job. The police were never going to do a stake out like we did. Citizen's arrest is not such a unusual thing to do. We would not have messed with him if he produced a knife. I note that when I published this article a week or two ago, much of the feedback (mostly from Americans I think) was that they would have skipped the police and just kicked the guy in! I would say we were quite sensible overall.
  - petesmithy 4y ago
    Additional context for Americans: we basically don’t have guns in Britain. The most dangerous thing these guys did was nearly get run over by the stalker fleeing in his car.
- SergeAx 4y ago
  It is not safe indeed, but since when we (as in "humans") started doing only safe things?
- BuckyBeaver 4y ago
  That's pretty much what they did. It's not as if they got out and attacked the guy.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  Well, it certainly helps there is an effective police force where they are. In the US, the police wouldn't have done much. Maybe issue a restraining order or three if she's lucky. Also helps that the danger of everyone carrying murder device firearms isn't as prevalent over there.
- lofaszvanitt 4y ago
  In certain countries the person is buried in a grave and problem solved. Nobody knows about it. What's wrong with that? Btw this whole shit looks staged.
- fennecfoxy 4y ago
  At least she got someone to defend her. If you're a dude who can't help yourself in the same way literally nobody gives a shit about you. Also, after reading the article: * They make a citizen's arrest with little evidence that the guy they observed the other night is the same dude as on video other than their word * The night they actually observed the guy, he didn't actually do anything wrong (even if putting on a mask is a pretty solid link) but it's still all on their word I feel like the stalker dude is a dangerous scumbag but these vigilantee a-holes are no better; as a short gay dude I've run in with too many of these dude bro white knights who may get things right now & then but can otherwise screw up. Like dudes that assault you in a club bc they think you're harassing some chick when in actuality you're just plain not interested.
Pepe1vo 4y ago
Truly, what compels a person to do such a thing? I too have struggled heavily with depression in the past, but I've never once felt the urge to repeatedly vandalize anyone's property. Like, I just don't understand what's to gain.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  Sometimes it isn't about gaining anything so much as just wanting the satisfaction making someone else suffer.
- genderwhy 4y ago
  I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the normal levels of inhibitions and reading social cues aren't present in many stalking cases. There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Fundamentally, I believe we need to do more for people like this. Safety nets and mental health and, if needed, in patient care. Would this have happened if the person had access to excellent therapy, medication, and support? Maybe, maybe not, but I would like to think that it would happen a whole lot less.
  - armchairhacker 4y ago
    Social skills are complicated and many people have autism. It’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation for why some people are like this. I feel like a lot of these situations can be avoided with some simple, hard rules: primarily a) no means no when it comes to anything flirting, and b) don’t become obsessed with any one person at least until you’re dating*. There’s a lot of nuance in social communication, but I really don’t see a case when you should break any of these hard rules. So many instances of serious harassment come down to breaking one or all of them. Idk how but the world would be much better if we could somehow just convince people to never, ever break them, and even if they are already broken, to just stop. * There’s also c) stop doing something “romantic” or “social” if you notice it makes others uncomfortable. But I suspect some people just can’t notice discomfort. The key words are “romantic” or “social” (and for a it is “flirting”) because sometimes you have to boss people around and say things which make them uncomfortable, like that they need to get out of the way or their job performance needs to improve, but you should never be making people awkward or uncomfortable if you are “just chatting”; and you will never get a girlfriend or boyfriend by scaring or pressuring them. Well, maybe you will if they’re not very smart, but that’s morally wrong, or if you’re high-profile or in Iraq, but you’re not and that’s also morally wrong. Like I said, nuance
Fauntleroy 4y ago
Those brothers are lucky this stalker was so meek. Things could have easily ended horribly.
- grujicd 4y ago
  Well it could also ended horribly in a different way if they didn't act.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    Yes. Regardless of how meek or not, a lot of these kinds of creeps are only big scary tough guys until confronted by other males for their actions. "Just call the police and sit back and wait for them to deal with it" is a response of someone who hasn't dealt with the criminal justice system, or never talked to women about the BS they put up with.
  - joering2 4y ago
    Sounds like Minority Report. Great movie btw.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Could have also ended horribly for the stalker too if the brothers weren't so meek either. Three adults, a couple of them working in construction? Anywhere else, we wouldn't be reading this story. It'd just be a note in the local paper about a random assault one night. If that.
  - joering2 4y ago
    Considering modern laws governing construction sites do not allow workers to carry anything over 20lb and that also in strict limited time, I would rather say an average gym member exercising 3 times a week would be a tougher mate. Not to mention criminals and crazy people do carry guns. The whole thing might as well ended with "three 6 feet-tall construction workers with black belts in jujitsu ended up dead shot by a 140 pounds stalker with semi-automatic gun"
Eisenstein 4y ago
Would have been better if we didn't have to hear about how great it was that she had three brothers. If she had three sisters into security I guess she would have been screwed?
- yreg 4y ago
  I also found the formulations off-putting, e.g. repeating how lucky it is for a girl to have brothers (emphasis on their gender). Or how they felt the need to explain specifically to the male readers why the sister was concerned by what's going on. I am a man and I would be scared shitless if some weirdo was breaking eggs on my car. The author probably just didn't realize this angle, I doubt he meant it in a bad way.
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    I am sure he didn't mean it in a bad way, but that doesn't mean that emphasis on gender like that isn't problematic. I specifically am referencing the multiple spots where it is highly implied that the brothers were there to rescue her and that she was completely naive otherwise and would have been helpless without them. The fact that they were in the business of online security was what specifically helped her, and the macho 'let's catch him!' antics hurt more than helped, and were generally dumb (which they acknowledge). The takeaway should have been 'she was luck to have people close to her that knew how to dox people online' and not 'she had three brothers who recklessly camp out at night in order to get into high speed pursuits.'
    - speg 4y ago
      Why do you have to neutralize them into ‘people close to her’? They are her brothers. Call it like it is. Every brother-sister relationship I’ve known is distinctly different than brother-brother or sister-sister relationships.
      - Eisenstein 4y ago
        The continued emphasis on 'luck' that she had 'brothers' was annoying to me, when that wasn't what was important about the relationship. My sisters have given me some great help over the years, but I don't emphasize how important it is that they are women unless that aspect was important to the help I received. Maybe I just don't like his writing style as a whole and this particular aspect jumps out at me, but the article would have been at least twice as good if it weren't so annoyingly emphatic about the gender thing in more than one way.
cratermoon 4y ago
At what point does this kind of thing become vigilatism?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  When you start inflicting extrajudicial punishments.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  When you don't follow the law and all lawful procedures around those laws.
- potsandpans 4y ago
  do you think its vigilantism?
nickdothutton 4y ago
Firstly there’s zero chance this was the guy’s first rodeo. Second, without a custodial sentence it wont be his last. When these stories end in tragedy there’s always the part of the story that goes something like “…X had previously been reported on no fewer than Y occasions for similar behaviour.”
- mabbo 4y ago
  Maybe. Or maybe part of the sentence was mandatory mental health treatment. Maybe this is the rock bottom that leads to this person getting the help they need and getting their life together. He's also now known to the police for this sort of behaviour. If anyone reports anything even minor about him, he's lost any benefit of the doubt.
- yosito 4y ago
  My thoughts exactly. If this guy was going through so much trouble to stalk someone over six months, a fine isn't going to stop him. He probably considers it to be a worthy cost for his obsession. A part of me feels that this guy should be humiliated and beat to within inches of his own life. His behavior certainly deserves that, in a karmic sense. But that probably isn't the best way to protect the victim here. Probably the best way is some sort of custodial sentence, house arrest/monitoring, and compulsory therapy and/or medication.
  - Major_Grooves 4y ago
    Indeed the same though crossed our minds (as I write in the article) that it is unlikely to be his first offence. We actually did not want to humiliate him, and believe me we had the opportunity, because we did not want to "push him over the edge". I kinda hope he has kept his job so he can try to get help and stop himself doing this again.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  There's always a first, and there's always a first report. All of this requires someone making the report.
- 4y ago
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
They acted as brothers are expected to act - outraged at the mistreatment of their sister, determined to catch the guy, doing everything in their power to keep her safe. It's arguable whether the police would/could help, and how far they'd go/have the resources to pursue the matter. In older times, three brothers knocking on your door would be the end of it. Either total capitulation, or some kind of accident. I feel they showed considerable restraint.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  Most people indeed commented that we showed quite decent restraint.
Gigachad 4y ago
These kinds of loons are far too common. I've wiped out most of my online presence that links to my real identity because of this. I'm not worried about big tech and advertisers getting my data, they just want to make money. I'm worried about insane individuals like this. You have to be proactive and avoid posting this stuff in public to begin with as it's much harder or impossible to retract what you have already posted. Never post your real life info / name / photos in public or semi public spaces. Use unique usernames for each site, avoid ever posting things which can link between them. In general it's best to just not post much on public sites at all and keep it to private group chats which are far safer.
- hacoo 4y ago
  People don’t talk about this enough. Public profiles are a huge surface area for whack jobs (or extortionists) to attack your career, relationships and reputation.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    It's the kind of thing you don't think about until something happens, and when it does it's too late.
- cuttysnark 4y ago
  This is why I'm so confused by people wishing to document their lives, their children, their home—to strangers on the internet. On the best day, maybe that translates to positive comments and upvotes. Is the juice worth the squeeze? No. A thousand times, NO.
  - throwawy2323 4y ago
    Sadly, if someone wants to find information there is enough online without needing to help them with social media. My parents have never had a social media account and I deleted mine years before I had an issue with someone who found out not only where I lived but my parents as well. (and having 20+ years in the software industry, I'm aware of how things work). Doing a simple search isn't that difficult to get the addresses. Though, it was probably a tracking device and considering the later disabling of important drive functions that my long time mechanic had no answer for except to not charge me hours of work looking at it and telling me to just get what I could for it, I lean towards tracking device. Staying off social media helps, but when someone wants to harass another, I think not being easily online just made it more fun for him. At least I would find the challenge more gratifying.
caxco93 4y ago
It makes me kinda sad that if this were to happen in my country (Peru), the police wouldn't do anything under the pretext that the suspect hasn't actually done anything.
- joering2 4y ago
  I am not defending him because it starts like this and sometimes ends horribly bad... but what did he really do? other than wrote something on dirt (didn't even destroy her paint) and broke an egg on her car? In 80s I remember it was a normal thing to take few dozen of eggs to any street manifest and throw them at cops, other groups, etc. Insane how soy late snowflake weak people became these days.
  - acer589 4y ago
    You're not allowed to harass people. With it being targeted, that's what this is. Also, you JUST acknowledged that these sorts of incidents have a history of escalating.
    - joering2 4y ago
      Where did I say he act accordingly with the law? And acknowledging something does not make it a rule. People who drink and drive do cause more accidents. But not every drunk person will cause an accident.
  - mft_ 4y ago
    I have no idea why you’re trying so hard to defend a stalker throughout this thread. He was driving a considerable distance, on repeated occasions, while concealing his appearance, to harass someone. That’s not “snowflake” ethics - it’s wrong, full stop It doesn’t matter how he chose to harass them, or whether the level of property damage was beyond a line you consider unacceptable.
throwawy2323 4y ago
> If you are a guy, ask your sister or mother how they would feel if this was happening to them. I would change this to asking if it has happened, I'd bet it has happened to far more females in one's life than people realize. But since it hasn't (or maybe it has) escalated to violence people don't think much of it. I unsuccessfully told a couple people before about a guy that was harassing me in a similar fashion, who 'coincidentally' knew where my parents lived and they were having a rash of break-ins and thefts at that same time. I had the misfortune of leaving my parents house while he was walking by far from anywhere he was known to stay. My place was in a large apt building and would not have been an easy target except for waiting for and watching me get home, usually weekends around 2-3am. The guy (who was living on other peoples couches) would start showing up in mutual social spaces with new things at that time, clothes & gear etc. He ended up doing far worse to my car and I was getting the feeling he was tracking it since he seemed to know where I was. I slowly avoided going to the social spaces, in return he spread malicious lies about me (which I learned of later after much confusion) causing acquaintances to start ignoring me, to being outright rude without explanation. I no longer saw the space as a social outlet. I told a close friend of mine who dismissed it as me being paranoid. So I told a therapist who question if maybe I had other stressors that would make me not see things clearly. A little while later, I ran into one of the people I would talk to on occasion in that space and he asked me about the rumors, I had no idea what he was talking about. I respect the hell out of him for being brave enough to ask me about it, unlike others who stopped talking to me or became actively rude. My last update about the people there was that he had a falling out with my harasser and his group. They were friends. How did it end? Haven't seen or heard from the harasser in awhile, I don't know why he stopped, but I know it stopped shortly after I received my concealed carry license and started carrying. This wasn't a big step for me since I've shot guns all my life. I never wanted to keep guns in my city apt. This is really not an option for most women (or people outside the US), I'm quite confident with all manner of firearms and have no issues with the thought of lethally defending myself. That is not true for many females.
- hacoo 4y ago
  I believe many people do these things because they think they can get away with it. Subconsciously or consciously, malicious stalking is about the power that comes from harassing a victim who has no way to respond.
thih9 4y ago
> In his first court appearance he pled not guilty, which apparently is normal for the first appearance regardless of actual guilt (something to do with legal aid fees??) How is that a thing? Does anyone know more?
- mjh2539 4y ago
  When you're initially charged with a crime, you have to plead guilty or not guilty. Typically, the prosecuting attorney will offer you some sort of deal if you plead guilty right off the bat. Otherwise, you plead not guilty and the legal machinery begins to turn (subpeonas, fact finding, depositions, etc.), with the end result being a trial. This takes a while, and the prosecuting attorney will sometimes attempt to sweeten the deal somehow to avoid a trial if they don't think they have an air-tight case against you. At least, that's how it works in the United States. Since Scotland is also a common law jurisdiction with something of a shared legal history (the union of Scotland and England predates the revolt by the American colonies by nearly a century) I imagine it probably works similarly there as well.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    There are in theory no plea deals in the UK. The police are not allowed to make promises in return for a guilty plea. The accused may have a reasonable expectation that they'll receive a reduced sentence from the judge in exchange for cooperating with the police; but there are no deals. The prosecutors cannot bind the judge.
yreg 4y ago
> Side note for Bumble — this is what we would call an “entity resolution” problem, leading to safety problems for your platform. When someone installs your app, you need to detect whether they have already installed it previously. If they have, then their activity (including blocks and people who have already declined them) should be linked to this new account. What is Bumble supposed to do if the user asks them to delete all the data that is connected to them? Can Bumble keep a hash of the name/phone and store it with a list of users who have blocked the user which is being erased?
- naturalauction 4y ago
  One approach on iOS is to store unique identifier in the “Keychain” (or iCloud itself) which is data kept in the cloud tied to a user’s Apple ID account. Of course this is only an impediment to a determined stalker (who could create a new Apple ID). But a determined stalker could also use a fake name and get a new phone number. See https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25276393/how-to-ban-an-ios-user https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25276393/how-to-ban-an-i... for more details.
  - yreg 4y ago
    Haha, the funny thing is that the service isn’t even storing that piece of data – the user is! So GDPR, etc. should be covered. Although, if the user finds out about the mechanism they can just delete the entry from their keychain.
    - newZWhoDis 4y ago
      That keychain is different from the publicly viewable one in settings
      - yreg 4y ago
        If that's true (and only the app who stored the item can retrieve it) I wonder who is responsible for GDPR regarding its storage. Is the app responsible? But it cannot even access the data after it is deleted. Apple? They have no idea what the data is. User? They don't even know about the data and cannot access it either. No one?
unsupp0rted 4y ago
> He has just driven through the red light to escape us! And if in the process he happens to crash his car into a family or pedestrian and kill everybody he hits, the defense will be "we were just trying to make a citizen's arrest?"
- joebob42 4y ago
  I'm not clear why they would be responsible for his hitting a pedestrian.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    There is a belief pervading society that criminals are not responsible for their own actions, that other things or people are responsible.
    - unsupp0rted 4y ago
      Moral questions aside, police have a lot more indemnity when chasing criminals than 2 brothers in a car hoping to make a citizen's arrest.
      - Major_Grooves 4y ago
        just to be clear - we did not expect to catch him, get him out of the car, and make a citizen's arrest. We just wanted to know what direction he went in to tell the police, but he was too fast.
  - unsupp0rted 4y ago
    One reason would be because they screeched their tires out of a parking lot in a rush to capture him, possibly to beat and murder him... from his perspective. If they caused a guy to flee for his life (whatever the guy's crime) and in the process he hit and killed somebody, then you can bet a judge would be interested in the details.
stickfigure 4y ago
It's not just women. I have a male friend in his late 50s who's been dealing with a stalker for the last 30 years. Every few years or so the stalker goes off his meds and starts harassing my friend. It's never gotten violent but you never know what kind of psychotic break is around the corner.
jsz0 4y ago
Seems like all this trouble and risk could have been avoided by simply leaving a note on the car with a warning about cameras/police. That's going to discourage most people who think they are 'getting away with it' to stop.
- joering2 4y ago
  Or maybe just politely answering one of his posts. I read it somewhere that during 80s police advised women in SF to act like they enjoy being raped. That it was best way to get the offender turned off and stop. Most likely saying "thank you for your comment" to this guy and eventually telling him "I am not interested sorry", would lost his interest. The story also stinks frankly. It starts off with my sister got some writing on her dirty car so she wasn't thinking anything and just wash them off. Next thing we see are the photos of that writing.. OR she wrote it herself for the story-telling?? highly doubtful. Then the guy is a dude and has crash on girl even tho the writing supposed to offend her because she's lesbian..? that's even harder to believe. There has been so many fake stories coming out online these days just to catch few clicks that you cannot trust anything anymore.
zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
I don't understand how she didn't make the connection between the internet weirdo and the irl weirdo sooner.
lultimouomo 4y ago
Nice that he plugged his de-anonymizing service in the store. "We take away your privacy, so that you sisters won't be stalked"
SergeAx 4y ago
> When someone installs your app, you need to detect whether they have already installed it previously. If they have, then their activity (including blocks and people who have already declined them) should be linked to this new account Quite the contrary, every user has a right to be totally forgotten and their data deleted permanently. [Un?]fortunately.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  Not necessarily. If it is for fraud prevention, then you would be within your rights (at least under GDPR), to retain certain data for a reasonable amount of time.
  - SergeAx 4y ago
    Good take, thank you.
  - once_inc 4y ago
    In my opinion, fraud prevention is, of all reasons to retain data, the least important. This example of dating app behaviour is easily detected with simple heuristics, and leads to far more important information than fraud could ever be.
    - Major_Grooves 4y ago
      in this case I really meant that the act of deleting and reinstalling the app is the fraudulent act, although it is not what most people would consider fraud (i.e. financial fraud) it would normally fall under "trust and safety" I guess.
      - SergeAx 4y ago
        I heard that EU food delivery apps was frauded this way: customer installs app, get hefty first delivery discount, asks to delete their data due to GDPR, rinse. repeat. They figured that out by keeping a hash of their phone number for some time like 3 months and not giving a discount to those numbers.
isthisthingon99 4y ago
I've been stalked by women it's not a good feeling. They even enlist the help of friends to do it to the point where I kept a baseball bat by the door.
durnygbur 4y ago
[flagged]

242 points by behnamoh 4y ago

Lammy 4y ago

TL;DR: Guy selling surveillance likes surveillance

motoxpro 4y ago
This made my day. Thank you.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ketzo 4y ago

Maybe obvious, but uh: don’t fucking do this! I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify the police" and went straight to "seek out in-person confrontation" is insane! Stalkers are not people in their right mind. Staking out and planning to “citizen’s arrest”(???) someone who has repeatedly visited late at night to threaten and harass is NOT SAFE FOR ANYONE INVOLVED. Do not ever physically escalate with a stalker! Collect evidence and get the authorities involved!

tantalor 4y ago
The part that jumped out was, > we get ready to make a “citizen’s arrest” That is so stupid. They are very lucky they didn't get the chance to try that.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  it's Scotland. Making a citizen's arrest is not so crazy.
ceejayoz 4y ago
The problem is the cops tend not to give a shit.
- ketzo 4y ago
  I understand that. But you cannot assume they won't help. These guys didn't even try contacting the police before hatching a late-night scheme. For what it's worth, in my (regrettably several) experiences with stalkers/harassers, this situation would have been taken extremely seriously. "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get.
  - MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
    Except they did: >Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly.
    - Major_Grooves 4y ago
      Thank you.
  - jemfinch 4y ago
    Please stop repeating this falsehood. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
    - Major_Grooves 4y ago
      Exactly.
  - genocidicbunny 4y ago
    I know this story is in the UK, but at least in the US you absolutely should assume they will not help, and depending on the circumstances will make the situation even worse. They have no duty to do anything to help, and no consequences if they don't. > "Masked guy repeatedly visits at night to write threatening messages on car of single woman living alone" is... about as explicit as you can get. Or alternatively its an invitation for a police officer or a department to suddenly need to do a lot of work that they could just...not do. No skin off their back if someone is being harassed or stalked, and if something worse happens, they can investigate then. Why spend the resources now after all?
zxexz 4y ago
Citizens Arrests are very dangerous and pretty much never worth the risk. Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge.
- mindslight 4y ago
  If only the police we pay for were held to the same standards as other citizens.
  - zxexz 4y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted. The seems pretty reasonable to me.
- gggggg5 4y ago
  >Even ignoring the many physical dangers of such an act, if the person “arrested” doesn’t get convicted (also pretty sure it has to be a felony conviction, at least here in MA, though IANAL), it opens you up to a false arrest, or possibly a false imprisonment, charge. In England and Wales you merely need a reasonable belief, the person not being convicted does not automatically open you up to trouble any more than it would open up a police officer to trouble. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/24A
bigpeach 4y ago
I thought this too. But you can feel incredibly powerless if all you do is “let the police handle it.” Even in this instance, nothing would have come of it had they not traced the guy. Prosecution of crime happens after a crime is committed. Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. Even if stalking is illegal, cops won’t / can’t feasibly spend the resources investigating and punishing stalkers. Even prosecuting sexual assault (ie. after a serious crime has been committed) is extremely difficult. What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? Speaking from personal experience, the lip service of “cops are there to protect you” is inadequate. It didn’t provide any safety, and I can’t see how, structurally, it even could.
- ketzo 4y ago
  Yeah, but like... they didn't even "let the police handle it." They just went straight to "late-night stakeout." > Cops can’t do much if you’re worried someone will harm you or a loved one. You're right, and that would be a scary situation... if they didn't have more than enough evidence for the police to get involved. Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. > What actually effective steps can you take if someone is harassing a female in your life? In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). Stalkers/harassers can make people feel extremely helpless, and yes, there are a lot of really horrible situations where cops are useless despite an obvious threat. This... is not one of those situations.
  - kanyethegreat 4y ago
    > Repeated, late-night visits to leave threatening messages would be plenty for a restraining order in the U.S., or at the very least to spur further police investigation. Restraining order against whom exactly? The masked man? Also, what tactical protection do you think a restraining order provides against someone with actual intent to harm? > In this case, her brothers could have taken turns driving home from work with her, walking her to her car, sleeping over at her place, while they waited for police to proceed with investigation. They could have helped her get connected with a self-defense course, or bought her mace (depending on legality). All good suggestions. Unfortunately, everything other than self-defense is a temporary (and likely not sustainable) countermeasure. Regarding the self-defense strategy, barring effective weapon use, the odds aren't in the target's favor given 1/ the size discrepancy (they even talk about how burly the stalker was) and 2/ the fact that the assailant has the element of surprise. It's sad that the only viable option seems to be "carry a weapon, train in martial arts, wait for an incident and hope you're able to defend against it." This is not preventative. It's reactionary. > This... is not one of those situations. I disagree.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
It is hilarious that you think the police would give a shit.
- ketzo 4y ago
  We have no way of knowing if they would have given a shit, because they literally didn't even try before planning a late-night stakeout. Yeah, cops can be really shitty about domestic violence and harassment. But, uh, as opening statements go, it's hard to do much stronger than: "Hello officer! I have video evidence of masked guy repeatedly visiting at night to write threatening messages on the car of a woman living alone"
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    You call the police a few times in your life and learn they are useless. Then you either experience or hear about times when calling them ended worse for the caller than if they'd just never bothered at all. Maybe this isn't true for where you live, your income bracket, or your skin tone, but it is definitely true for a lot of people.
  - gghffguhvc 4y ago
    From the article: "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
andrewflnr 4y ago
Possibly different in Scotland? They mention at least making an effort to figure out the laws that apply to them.
entwife 4y ago
Hi, Where I live the police won't get seriously involved unless someone is injured or dead. I prefer not to wait that long.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  I’m not sure if this is a regional thing; police are like this just about everywhere. In my region, most of the people in my community have all stopped calling the emergency services line to report crimes in progress because the dispatch yells and screams and berates the callers. There’s a Facebook group for my local town with dozens of people who say they don’t call anymore because of this. At some point, the police transitioned from preventing and fighting crime to arguing in court that they don’t have the duty to protect. Not sure how it happened or why, but it’s making things worse. Many people no longer see the police as part of the local community but as an organized gang that terrorizes people for small infractions while ignoring major crimes in progress. No amount of patriotism, flag waving, or bumper stickers can change this perception.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Where is this awful place? It sounds like it's in the US; can you say which state at least?
    - mgarfias 4y ago
      No police force in the US has a duty to protect. See: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9108468254125174344&q=warren-v-district-of-columbia&hl=en&as_sdt=2006 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=910846825412517...
  - ARandomerDude 4y ago
    > Not sure how it happened or why Obviously police are a diverse group, but certainly no white male police officer in his right mind would risk a violent encounter with a minority suspect in today’s political environment. If I were a cop, I’d get another job ASAP and focus on paperwork until I found one.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>I get it, I'm an older brother, I would wanna go ballistic too. But the fact that these guys skipped over "notify the police" and went straight to "seek out in-person confrontation" is insane! Unless you have independently evidence (that can be independently verified) of a better than misdemeanor crime police almost certainly aren't gonna do squat other than put you on a list of "people with motive" to check up on when the dude you're after gets shwacked by someone else he's wronged.
isk517 4y ago
While I do agree that what they did is risky, the article does mention that the police had already been notified after previous incidents. Of course if they failed to alert the police after they had the video evidence of the same guy vandalizing the car night after night then I will fully agree complete idiots, otherwise I can sympathize with their desire to go above and beyond to help their sister.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  "Complete idiots"might be a slight exaggeration, but hey no offence taken. iirc they knew we had video, but the video of the car vandalism was never going to be enough to do anything. They had not seen that specific video. In the end it was only a small part of the evidence package.
  - isk517 4y ago
    Thanks for the response. Just to clarify, the 'complete idiots' comment was only applicable in the event you had completely ignored the police while gathering the evidence. Since you seemed to have been in contact with them and realized they were not going to act I honestly applaud you and brother for taking steps to ensure your sister doesn't end up as a 'statistic' as they say.
korroziya 4y ago
[flagged]
thenayr 4y ago
[dead]
TheRealPomax 4y ago
Note: Scotland. Different rules.
gghffguhvc 4y ago
I agree. However it is worth noting that the sister had been to the police quite a bit by the sounds of it. "Now it was time to call 999. My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
femto 4y ago
"Collect evidence and get the authorities involved!" is excellent advice. Though if other options were exhausted, I'd be more prepared to "give it a go" in the UK than in the US. Stricter gun laws mean you're unlikely to be confronted with a firearm, and if outnumbered and tempers are kept at bay the person would be more likely to run or surrender. Think I would have had more than two people on my side.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  So you confront someone you think is a criminal with a group of men and get into a brawl. How much time are you willing to spend in jail? Even if the gent is a stalker and you are right - you still instigated a brawl! You still assaulted (or more) someone. If your thought process is "ah but he won't have a gun! My lads and me will really have an easy time now!" that may be a sign you are doing something unwise. And what if he does have a knife or improvised weapon? Are you looking forward to explaining to your buds wife why he's room temp in the morgue over a stalker?
  - femto 4y ago
    > you still instigated a brawl! Why go in with an assumption that violence is going to occur? That's a recipe for trouble. You would have to pick your friends carefully, so none of them loose their cool. If there is going to be violence or any contact, let the stalker initiate it. I'm not arguing that it would be risk free or a lark. It's a case of accepting the risks and being happy that the likely outcome would justify the risks.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      If you don't believe violence is going to occur, why not go alone?
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        The point of going with a group of friends is to make it clear to the person you are implicitly threatening that if there is a fight they will lose. The more unbalanced the forces on each side the less likely the weaker side is to initiate violence.
n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
Cowardice: the post. Cops won’t care or do anything near me. Dangerous confrontation > dead/raped sister any day of the week.
- shbooms 4y ago
  Right but the point is you at least need to notfiy them first and give them the chance to do something. If you're unsatified with what they've done, or lack thereof, then sure.
  - JimtheCoder 4y ago
    "Hello, 911? I'd like to report a stalker. If you don't handle it in 30 minutes or less, I will attack. I woke up today and chose violence..."
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - type0 4y ago
      > or less, I will attack. Copy written lyrics so they can't be stolen If they are, Snap! Don't need the police To try to save them, your voice will cease So please, stay off my back Or I will attack, and you don't want that
  - jemfinch 4y ago
    The point isn't a point at all, since their sister had already notified the police and given them a chance to do something. Read the article: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents."
- throwaway292939 4y ago
  Who said those are the only two choices available? False dichotomy
pnw 4y ago
The post indicates they had previously notified the police. "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents, so they knew there was a problem linked to her flat and came round pretty quickly."
MisterTea 4y ago
Trying to confront chase the perp was indeed a dumb idea. Though if you read the article they appear to have made multiple reports in the past. Thing is with police reports like this is by the time they arrive they only "see" vandalism which is all they can put in their report. Anything else you tell them is taken with a grain of salt, they arent psychics. In order for them to become actively involved they need to see the crime in progress or be presented with solid evidence. In the latter case you need to hire a private detective or DiY which is what they chose to do here.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Also from a legal standpoint, if you end up in court trying to get a restraining order or by pressing charges, it's going to look awful if you did something like this. Unfortunately, you want to look like a perfect victim if you're going before a judge over something like this. Same goes if you want law enforcement to take you seriously. It's hard enough to get them to take stalking victims seriously as it is. But I also get it. The chances of the law doing anything about the stalker are slim to none even if you are a perfect victim.
csours 4y ago
Is there a prospective randomized controlled trial on which intervention is safest and most effective? No? Hmmm.
sannee 4y ago
I do not think the article implied that this was safe in any way. Sometimes doing something unsafe is the only way to accomplish a task.
valdiorn 4y ago
definitely get it on record with the police, but you must realise that the police will do fuck-all about it until it escalates into something much more serious, and often, it's too late at that point. Taking matters into your own hands is often the only way of dealing with it -albeit there are safer ways of going about it.
barry-cotter 4y ago
This is only good advice in a society of law and order where crimes are prosecuted and punished appropriately. Whether that fits the UK is a matter for debate. For reasons people might believe that see the incredibly long thread linked below. There’s no Spanish reason to believe the police would have investigated and arrested a stalker just because there was copious evidence to prosecute. > Norwich man leaves his victim with permanent facial scarring after glassing him in a nightclub row over his feet being on a seat. Ordered to pay £175 compensation with a suspended sentence edp24.co.uk/news/23243869.… via @Norfolkforever https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1613814824013598720?s=46&t... > Disqualified driver kills a cyclist while doing 80 in a 30mph zone, leaves him to die while he escapes, Despite ten prior convictions for 20 offences, gets less than 5 years (so will serve 2 and a half) Also banned from driving - for 5 just years https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1616865052899909633?s=46&t... > Last year at least 58 people were murdered by criminals let out early on probation. Many of those had been let out early for extremely violent offences express.co.uk/news/uk/172127… (*55 killers, at least one killed multiple people) https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t=O0XWb7iljJFTiFhWn_xCPQ https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1614919057102209025?s=46&t...
DonHopkins 4y ago
Save your breath for telling the stalker: don't fucking do this!
wpietri 4y ago
Do you have experience getting the cops involved in something like this? Because from what I've read, it's at best hit or miss depending on jurisdiction and circumstance. That's not to say that a citizen's arrest is a good idea, mind you. Just that getting the authorities involved may not be effective.
dqpb 4y ago
The instinct to defend yourself and your loved ones is a heuristic policy trained over millions of years. Certainly there is a good reason for this. By the way, remember when less than a year ago 376 police officers stood around while a deranged gunman murdered 19 highschool students, serving no other purpose than to prevent anyone from entering the school and saving the students? Nobody cares about your safety as much as you and your family do.
justatdotin 4y ago
some of us do not like to deal with police.
colechristensen 4y ago
Eh, the police are pretty useless. Unless the situation is obvious, easy, and very serious, don’t expect much. Yea confronting a stalker isn’t safe, duh. I don’t know who would go into an endeavor like that expecting such. What you need to do is make sure that you aren’t inviting serious legal consequences on yourself with your plans (or that you know and accept the risks).
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speg 4y ago
The police had been informed prior to the stakeout. A citizens arrest is a well-known thing, why the ??? This isn’t America, where everyone may be yielding a firearm.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  aye, exactly. I presume most of the people criticising our "citizen's arrest" idea are form the US, where I indeed would not have contemplated doing such a thing. In Scotland I do not really have the same fear. Not sure I would do the same thing in Glasgow or London, but still, we are not idiots, we were not going to take any crazy risks but we figured the risk to us was worth it to stop the risk to our sister. We weighed the risks up.
jemfinch 4y ago
It was buried, so you might have missed it: "My sister had already had a couple of police visits about the previous incidents." They didn't skip the police at all: the police simply weren't doing anything until they had more information.
scotty79 4y ago
I don't think anybody skipped "notify the police". He mentiones police was informed multiple times about incidents with a car. They just didn't bother to do anything until the guy was served to them on a silver platter. Even after police was given plates of the guy (seen on two consecutive days) they said, you must be wrong, car's from Yorkshire, as if the main feature of the cars wasn't that they can move from Yorkshire to wherever.
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
You might be right, but most of the time authorities don't do shit. I remember a situation where a friend (SF Bay Area) managed to identify the location of his stolen bike, police didn't care and didn't do anything. I agree that caution is necessary, but I wouldn't be expecting much from the police.
yosito 4y ago
This is highly context dependent. The police are not reliable in many (probably most) places in the world. In many places you're much better off with a direct confrontation.
Major_Grooves 4y ago
Hi, this is my article. I know it's a long read, but I presume you didn't read the whole article. We certainly didn't skip notifying the police. The whole point of the article is that we did the opposite - gathered enough evidence so that the police could do their job. The police were never going to do a stake out like we did. Citizen's arrest is not such a unusual thing to do. We would not have messed with him if he produced a knife. I note that when I published this article a week or two ago, much of the feedback (mostly from Americans I think) was that they would have skipped the police and just kicked the guy in! I would say we were quite sensible overall.
- petesmithy 4y ago
  Additional context for Americans: we basically don’t have guns in Britain. The most dangerous thing these guys did was nearly get run over by the stalker fleeing in his car.
SergeAx 4y ago
It is not safe indeed, but since when we (as in "humans") started doing only safe things?
BuckyBeaver 4y ago
That's pretty much what they did. It's not as if they got out and attacked the guy.
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AtlasBarfed 4y ago
Well, it certainly helps there is an effective police force where they are. In the US, the police wouldn't have done much. Maybe issue a restraining order or three if she's lucky. Also helps that the danger of everyone carrying murder device firearms isn't as prevalent over there.
lofaszvanitt 4y ago
In certain countries the person is buried in a grave and problem solved. Nobody knows about it. What's wrong with that? Btw this whole shit looks staged.
fennecfoxy 4y ago
At least she got someone to defend her. If you're a dude who can't help yourself in the same way literally nobody gives a shit about you. Also, after reading the article: * They make a citizen's arrest with little evidence that the guy they observed the other night is the same dude as on video other than their word * The night they actually observed the guy, he didn't actually do anything wrong (even if putting on a mask is a pretty solid link) but it's still all on their word I feel like the stalker dude is a dangerous scumbag but these vigilantee a-holes are no better; as a short gay dude I've run in with too many of these dude bro white knights who may get things right now & then but can otherwise screw up. Like dudes that assault you in a club bc they think you're harassing some chick when in actuality you're just plain not interested.

Pepe1vo 4y ago

Truly, what compels a person to do such a thing? I too have struggled heavily with depression in the past, but I've never once felt the urge to repeatedly vandalize anyone's property. Like, I just don't understand what's to gain.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Sometimes it isn't about gaining anything so much as just wanting the satisfaction making someone else suffer.
genderwhy 4y ago
I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the normal levels of inhibitions and reading social cues aren't present in many stalking cases. There is a belief that if they are just persistent enough, their target will see their attempts as affection and fall head over heals for them. Fundamentally, I believe we need to do more for people like this. Safety nets and mental health and, if needed, in patient care. Would this have happened if the person had access to excellent therapy, medication, and support? Maybe, maybe not, but I would like to think that it would happen a whole lot less.
- armchairhacker 4y ago
  Social skills are complicated and many people have autism. It’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation for why some people are like this. I feel like a lot of these situations can be avoided with some simple, hard rules: primarily a) no means no when it comes to anything flirting, and b) don’t become obsessed with any one person at least until you’re dating*. There’s a lot of nuance in social communication, but I really don’t see a case when you should break any of these hard rules. So many instances of serious harassment come down to breaking one or all of them. Idk how but the world would be much better if we could somehow just convince people to never, ever break them, and even if they are already broken, to just stop. * There’s also c) stop doing something “romantic” or “social” if you notice it makes others uncomfortable. But I suspect some people just can’t notice discomfort. The key words are “romantic” or “social” (and for a it is “flirting”) because sometimes you have to boss people around and say things which make them uncomfortable, like that they need to get out of the way or their job performance needs to improve, but you should never be making people awkward or uncomfortable if you are “just chatting”; and you will never get a girlfriend or boyfriend by scaring or pressuring them. Well, maybe you will if they’re not very smart, but that’s morally wrong, or if you’re high-profile or in Iraq, but you’re not and that’s also morally wrong. Like I said, nuance

Fauntleroy 4y ago

Those brothers are lucky this stalker was so meek. Things could have easily ended horribly.

grujicd 4y ago
Well it could also ended horribly in a different way if they didn't act.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Yes. Regardless of how meek or not, a lot of these kinds of creeps are only big scary tough guys until confronted by other males for their actions. "Just call the police and sit back and wait for them to deal with it" is a response of someone who hasn't dealt with the criminal justice system, or never talked to women about the BS they put up with.
- joering2 4y ago
  Sounds like Minority Report. Great movie btw.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
Could have also ended horribly for the stalker too if the brothers weren't so meek either. Three adults, a couple of them working in construction? Anywhere else, we wouldn't be reading this story. It'd just be a note in the local paper about a random assault one night. If that.
- joering2 4y ago
  Considering modern laws governing construction sites do not allow workers to carry anything over 20lb and that also in strict limited time, I would rather say an average gym member exercising 3 times a week would be a tougher mate. Not to mention criminals and crazy people do carry guns. The whole thing might as well ended with "three 6 feet-tall construction workers with black belts in jujitsu ended up dead shot by a 140 pounds stalker with semi-automatic gun"

Eisenstein 4y ago

Would have been better if we didn't have to hear about how great it was that she had three brothers. If she had three sisters into security I guess she would have been screwed?

yreg 4y ago
I also found the formulations off-putting, e.g. repeating how lucky it is for a girl to have brothers (emphasis on their gender). Or how they felt the need to explain specifically to the male readers why the sister was concerned by what's going on. I am a man and I would be scared shitless if some weirdo was breaking eggs on my car. The author probably just didn't realize this angle, I doubt he meant it in a bad way.
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  I am sure he didn't mean it in a bad way, but that doesn't mean that emphasis on gender like that isn't problematic. I specifically am referencing the multiple spots where it is highly implied that the brothers were there to rescue her and that she was completely naive otherwise and would have been helpless without them. The fact that they were in the business of online security was what specifically helped her, and the macho 'let's catch him!' antics hurt more than helped, and were generally dumb (which they acknowledge). The takeaway should have been 'she was luck to have people close to her that knew how to dox people online' and not 'she had three brothers who recklessly camp out at night in order to get into high speed pursuits.'
  - speg 4y ago
    Why do you have to neutralize them into ‘people close to her’? They are her brothers. Call it like it is. Every brother-sister relationship I’ve known is distinctly different than brother-brother or sister-sister relationships.
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      The continued emphasis on 'luck' that she had 'brothers' was annoying to me, when that wasn't what was important about the relationship. My sisters have given me some great help over the years, but I don't emphasize how important it is that they are women unless that aspect was important to the help I received. Maybe I just don't like his writing style as a whole and this particular aspect jumps out at me, but the article would have been at least twice as good if it weren't so annoyingly emphatic about the gender thing in more than one way.

cratermoon 4y ago

At what point does this kind of thing become vigilatism?

ceejayoz 4y ago
When you start inflicting extrajudicial punishments.
TheRealPomax 4y ago
When you don't follow the law and all lawful procedures around those laws.
potsandpans 4y ago
do you think its vigilantism?

nickdothutton 4y ago

Firstly there’s zero chance this was the guy’s first rodeo. Second, without a custodial sentence it wont be his last. When these stories end in tragedy there’s always the part of the story that goes something like “…X had previously been reported on no fewer than Y occasions for similar behaviour.”

mabbo 4y ago
Maybe. Or maybe part of the sentence was mandatory mental health treatment. Maybe this is the rock bottom that leads to this person getting the help they need and getting their life together. He's also now known to the police for this sort of behaviour. If anyone reports anything even minor about him, he's lost any benefit of the doubt.
yosito 4y ago
My thoughts exactly. If this guy was going through so much trouble to stalk someone over six months, a fine isn't going to stop him. He probably considers it to be a worthy cost for his obsession. A part of me feels that this guy should be humiliated and beat to within inches of his own life. His behavior certainly deserves that, in a karmic sense. But that probably isn't the best way to protect the victim here. Probably the best way is some sort of custodial sentence, house arrest/monitoring, and compulsory therapy and/or medication.
- Major_Grooves 4y ago
  Indeed the same though crossed our minds (as I write in the article) that it is unlikely to be his first offence. We actually did not want to humiliate him, and believe me we had the opportunity, because we did not want to "push him over the edge". I kinda hope he has kept his job so he can try to get help and stop himself doing this again.
yieldcrv 4y ago
There's always a first, and there's always a first report. All of this requires someone making the report.
4y ago

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

They acted as brothers are expected to act - outraged at the mistreatment of their sister, determined to catch the guy, doing everything in their power to keep her safe. It's arguable whether the police would/could help, and how far they'd go/have the resources to pursue the matter. In older times, three brothers knocking on your door would be the end of it. Either total capitulation, or some kind of accident. I feel they showed considerable restraint.

Major_Grooves 4y ago
Most people indeed commented that we showed quite decent restraint.

Gigachad 4y ago

These kinds of loons are far too common. I've wiped out most of my online presence that links to my real identity because of this. I'm not worried about big tech and advertisers getting my data, they just want to make money. I'm worried about insane individuals like this. You have to be proactive and avoid posting this stuff in public to begin with as it's much harder or impossible to retract what you have already posted. Never post your real life info / name / photos in public or semi public spaces. Use unique usernames for each site, avoid ever posting things which can link between them. In general it's best to just not post much on public sites at all and keep it to private group chats which are far safer.

hacoo 4y ago
People don’t talk about this enough. Public profiles are a huge surface area for whack jobs (or extortionists) to attack your career, relationships and reputation.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  It's the kind of thing you don't think about until something happens, and when it does it's too late.
cuttysnark 4y ago
This is why I'm so confused by people wishing to document their lives, their children, their home—to strangers on the internet. On the best day, maybe that translates to positive comments and upvotes. Is the juice worth the squeeze? No. A thousand times, NO.
- throwawy2323 4y ago
  Sadly, if someone wants to find information there is enough online without needing to help them with social media. My parents have never had a social media account and I deleted mine years before I had an issue with someone who found out not only where I lived but my parents as well. (and having 20+ years in the software industry, I'm aware of how things work). Doing a simple search isn't that difficult to get the addresses. Though, it was probably a tracking device and considering the later disabling of important drive functions that my long time mechanic had no answer for except to not charge me hours of work looking at it and telling me to just get what I could for it, I lean towards tracking device. Staying off social media helps, but when someone wants to harass another, I think not being easily online just made it more fun for him. At least I would find the challenge more gratifying.

caxco93 4y ago

It makes me kinda sad that if this were to happen in my country (Peru), the police wouldn't do anything under the pretext that the suspect hasn't actually done anything.

joering2 4y ago
I am not defending him because it starts like this and sometimes ends horribly bad... but what did he really do? other than wrote something on dirt (didn't even destroy her paint) and broke an egg on her car? In 80s I remember it was a normal thing to take few dozen of eggs to any street manifest and throw them at cops, other groups, etc. Insane how soy late snowflake weak people became these days.
- acer589 4y ago
  You're not allowed to harass people. With it being targeted, that's what this is. Also, you JUST acknowledged that these sorts of incidents have a history of escalating.
  - joering2 4y ago
    Where did I say he act accordingly with the law? And acknowledging something does not make it a rule. People who drink and drive do cause more accidents. But not every drunk person will cause an accident.
- mft_ 4y ago
  I have no idea why you’re trying so hard to defend a stalker throughout this thread. He was driving a considerable distance, on repeated occasions, while concealing his appearance, to harass someone. That’s not “snowflake” ethics - it’s wrong, full stop It doesn’t matter how he chose to harass them, or whether the level of property damage was beyond a line you consider unacceptable.

throwawy2323 4y ago

> If you are a guy, ask your sister or mother how they would feel if this was happening to them. I would change this to asking if it has happened, I'd bet it has happened to far more females in one's life than people realize. But since it hasn't (or maybe it has) escalated to violence people don't think much of it. I unsuccessfully told a couple people before about a guy that was harassing me in a similar fashion, who 'coincidentally' knew where my parents lived and they were having a rash of break-ins and thefts at that same time. I had the misfortune of leaving my parents house while he was walking by far from anywhere he was known to stay. My place was in a large apt building and would not have been an easy target except for waiting for and watching me get home, usually weekends around 2-3am. The guy (who was living on other peoples couches) would start showing up in mutual social spaces with new things at that time, clothes & gear etc. He ended up doing far worse to my car and I was getting the feeling he was tracking it since he seemed to know where I was. I slowly avoided going to the social spaces, in return he spread malicious lies about me (which I learned of later after much confusion) causing acquaintances to start ignoring me, to being outright rude without explanation. I no longer saw the space as a social outlet. I told a close friend of mine who dismissed it as me being paranoid. So I told a therapist who question if maybe I had other stressors that would make me not see things clearly. A little while later, I ran into one of the people I would talk to on occasion in that space and he asked me about the rumors, I had no idea what he was talking about. I respect the hell out of him for being brave enough to ask me about it, unlike others who stopped talking to me or became actively rude. My last update about the people there was that he had a falling out with my harasser and his group. They were friends. How did it end? Haven't seen or heard from the harasser in awhile, I don't know why he stopped, but I know it stopped shortly after I received my concealed carry license and started carrying. This wasn't a big step for me since I've shot guns all my life. I never wanted to keep guns in my city apt. This is really not an option for most women (or people outside the US), I'm quite confident with all manner of firearms and have no issues with the thought of lethally defending myself. That is not true for many females.

hacoo 4y ago
I believe many people do these things because they think they can get away with it. Subconsciously or consciously, malicious stalking is about the power that comes from harassing a victim who has no way to respond.

thih9 4y ago

> In his first court appearance he pled not guilty, which apparently is normal for the first appearance regardless of actual guilt (something to do with legal aid fees??) How is that a thing? Does anyone know more?

mjh2539 4y ago
When you're initially charged with a crime, you have to plead guilty or not guilty. Typically, the prosecuting attorney will offer you some sort of deal if you plead guilty right off the bat. Otherwise, you plead not guilty and the legal machinery begins to turn (subpeonas, fact finding, depositions, etc.), with the end result being a trial. This takes a while, and the prosecuting attorney will sometimes attempt to sweeten the deal somehow to avoid a trial if they don't think they have an air-tight case against you. At least, that's how it works in the United States. Since Scotland is also a common law jurisdiction with something of a shared legal history (the union of Scotland and England predates the revolt by the American colonies by nearly a century) I imagine it probably works similarly there as well.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  There are in theory no plea deals in the UK. The police are not allowed to make promises in return for a guilty plea. The accused may have a reasonable expectation that they'll receive a reduced sentence from the judge in exchange for cooperating with the police; but there are no deals. The prosecutors cannot bind the judge.

yreg 4y ago

> Side note for Bumble — this is what we would call an “entity resolution” problem, leading to safety problems for your platform. When someone installs your app, you need to detect whether they have already installed it previously. If they have, then their activity (including blocks and people who have already declined them) should be linked to this new account. What is Bumble supposed to do if the user asks them to delete all the data that is connected to them? Can Bumble keep a hash of the name/phone and store it with a list of users who have blocked the user which is being erased?

naturalauction 4y ago
One approach on iOS is to store unique identifier in the “Keychain” (or iCloud itself) which is data kept in the cloud tied to a user’s Apple ID account. Of course this is only an impediment to a determined stalker (who could create a new Apple ID). But a determined stalker could also use a fake name and get a new phone number. See https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25276393/how-to-ban-an-ios-user https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25276393/how-to-ban-an-i... for more details.
- yreg 4y ago
  Haha, the funny thing is that the service isn’t even storing that piece of data – the user is! So GDPR, etc. should be covered. Although, if the user finds out about the mechanism they can just delete the entry from their keychain.
  - newZWhoDis 4y ago
    That keychain is different from the publicly viewable one in settings
    - yreg 4y ago
      If that's true (and only the app who stored the item can retrieve it) I wonder who is responsible for GDPR regarding its storage. Is the app responsible? But it cannot even access the data after it is deleted. Apple? They have no idea what the data is. User? They don't even know about the data and cannot access it either. No one?

unsupp0rted 4y ago

> He has just driven through the red light to escape us! And if in the process he happens to crash his car into a family or pedestrian and kill everybody he hits, the defense will be "we were just trying to make a citizen's arrest?"

joebob42 4y ago
I'm not clear why they would be responsible for his hitting a pedestrian.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  There is a belief pervading society that criminals are not responsible for their own actions, that other things or people are responsible.
  - unsupp0rted 4y ago
    Moral questions aside, police have a lot more indemnity when chasing criminals than 2 brothers in a car hoping to make a citizen's arrest.
    - Major_Grooves 4y ago
      just to be clear - we did not expect to catch him, get him out of the car, and make a citizen's arrest. We just wanted to know what direction he went in to tell the police, but he was too fast.
- unsupp0rted 4y ago
  One reason would be because they screeched their tires out of a parking lot in a rush to capture him, possibly to beat and murder him... from his perspective. If they caused a guy to flee for his life (whatever the guy's crime) and in the process he hit and killed somebody, then you can bet a judge would be interested in the details.

stickfigure 4y ago

It's not just women. I have a male friend in his late 50s who's been dealing with a stalker for the last 30 years. Every few years or so the stalker goes off his meds and starts harassing my friend. It's never gotten violent but you never know what kind of psychotic break is around the corner.

jsz0 4y ago

Seems like all this trouble and risk could have been avoided by simply leaving a note on the car with a warning about cameras/police. That's going to discourage most people who think they are 'getting away with it' to stop.

joering2 4y ago
Or maybe just politely answering one of his posts. I read it somewhere that during 80s police advised women in SF to act like they enjoy being raped. That it was best way to get the offender turned off and stop. Most likely saying "thank you for your comment" to this guy and eventually telling him "I am not interested sorry", would lost his interest. The story also stinks frankly. It starts off with my sister got some writing on her dirty car so she wasn't thinking anything and just wash them off. Next thing we see are the photos of that writing.. OR she wrote it herself for the story-telling?? highly doubtful. Then the guy is a dude and has crash on girl even tho the writing supposed to offend her because she's lesbian..? that's even harder to believe. There has been so many fake stories coming out online these days just to catch few clicks that you cannot trust anything anymore.

zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago

I don't understand how she didn't make the connection between the internet weirdo and the irl weirdo sooner.

lultimouomo 4y ago

Nice that he plugged his de-anonymizing service in the store. "We take away your privacy, so that you sisters won't be stalked"

SergeAx 4y ago

> When someone installs your app, you need to detect whether they have already installed it previously. If they have, then their activity (including blocks and people who have already declined them) should be linked to this new account Quite the contrary, every user has a right to be totally forgotten and their data deleted permanently. [Un?]fortunately.

Major_Grooves 4y ago
Not necessarily. If it is for fraud prevention, then you would be within your rights (at least under GDPR), to retain certain data for a reasonable amount of time.
- SergeAx 4y ago
  Good take, thank you.
- once_inc 4y ago
  In my opinion, fraud prevention is, of all reasons to retain data, the least important. This example of dating app behaviour is easily detected with simple heuristics, and leads to far more important information than fraud could ever be.
  - Major_Grooves 4y ago
    in this case I really meant that the act of deleting and reinstalling the app is the fraudulent act, although it is not what most people would consider fraud (i.e. financial fraud) it would normally fall under "trust and safety" I guess.
    - SergeAx 4y ago
      I heard that EU food delivery apps was frauded this way: customer installs app, get hefty first delivery discount, asks to delete their data due to GDPR, rinse. repeat. They figured that out by keeping a hash of their phone number for some time like 3 months and not giving a discount to those numbers.

isthisthingon99 4y ago

I've been stalked by women it's not a good feeling. They even enlist the help of friends to do it to the point where I kept a baseball bat by the door.

durnygbur 4y ago

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