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>undocumented workers [are responsible for the productivity drop] I am confused by this assertion. If they are undocumented, wouldn't they be excluded in the s

>undocumented workers [are responsible for the productivity drop] I am confused by this assertion. If they are undocumented, wouldn't they be excluded in the stats? And if they aren't included in the stats, shouldn't we expect an artificial increase in worker productivity? If there is a 4:1 undocumented to documented ratio, then that 1 documented person will get "credit" for the work of 5 people! Even if 4 of those people are relatively unskilled, that's still a big boost. My initial thought about this is that productivity declines because workers wait around a lot, and they wait around because of ballooning administrative overhead. This would also be consistent with what we know about state of the medical industry and academia during the same time period.

taeric 4y ago
I'm inclined to take your side on this. By virtue of being undocumented, they should be boosting the perceived productivity, not dampening it. If I was to steelman the idea, though; I would guess that removing incentives in the form of higher pay will lower the contributions of everyone involved?
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  If your labor hours are billable why on Earth should undocumented in this context mean unaccounted for?
  - taeric 4y ago
    I think I understand the question. The disagreement seems to be what "undocumented worker" here means. If you think it means the worker is on the books, but is not a citizen, then you get to your question. It should be roughly the same. If you think it means that the worker was off the books, regardless of citizenship, then you arrive at the other. My consideration is if I am a cleaner and get my child to help out on a few jobs, my child will not be a documented worker and it will be a transparent boost to my productivity. Indeed, many subcontractors and migrant workers will use family as a cheap way to boost productivity so that they can take more jobs. I grant that construction may land on the other interpretation. There are usually more rules for that kind of work. (Though, in rural areas? Not sure.)
kube-system 4y ago
Undocumented workers show up in many statistics. "Undocumented" doesn't literally mean that there is nothing recorded about this person, it means they do not have permission to work in the US.
lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
"Undocumented" means they lack citizenship or a valid visa. It doesn't mean they aren't calculated in productivity statistics. Many undocumented workers even pay taxes to the IRS, are counted in censuses, and more.
hn_go_brrrrr 4y ago
"Undocumented" is the current preferred euphemism for "illegal immigrant".
- pphysch 4y ago
  "Illegal immigrant" is a dysphemism for "cheap labor".
- elmomle 4y ago
  Or, "illegal immigrant" is a sometimes-used dysphemism for "undocumented immigrant". I'm not aware of any other class of people who break a law who are called "illegal" as a result; it's a rather dehumanizing impulse.
  - parineum 4y ago
    What part of "illegal" or "immigrant" implies a person is not a human? It's just shorthand for "person who has immigrated illegally" anyway, arguing over these words is a distraction. You have any solutions?
    - medvezhenok 4y ago
      Yes, fix legal immigration: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/annual-number-of-us-legal-permanent-residents https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/ann... The current legal immigration levels are way too low, hence people breaking the law trying to establish roots in the country (or fleeing persecution elsewhere). We used to call people foreign-born instead of illegal, and not care about their immigration status at all. Oh, wait - that's when the Europeans were immigrating: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/annual-number-of-us-legal-permanent-residents https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/ann... If many many people are breaking a law (i.e. jaywalking), one should consider whether the law is actually reasonable in the first place.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    People refer to other people who break the law by the law they broke all the time. Thieves, murders, fraudsters, etc Illegal immigrant doesn't seem especially derogatory for someone who illegally immigrated. I think it would be better to focus on the fact their felony crime rate is far below the native population than arguing over a pretty tame word used to describe them.
Uehreka 4y ago
Not necessarily. Undocumented doesn’t mean “excluded from the stats”, it means “doesn’t have a valid work visa or social security number”. I’m not sure if something similar happens in construction, but I’ve heard that in the landscaping business a supervisor will just pull up to a Home Depot with a pickup truck, and there’ll be a bunch of people waiting around, and they’ll go “Who wants $X for Y hours?” And then 4 or 5 guys get in the back of the truck and they head to the work site. In a situation like that, you’re probably keeping track of how many people you employ each day so you can figure out how many you need for future projects, but you’re not gonna be able to produce a list of social security numbers if someone asked.
- 56friends 4y ago
  Just speculating, but the number of people who are here legally but do not have a work permit is probably not significant in the construction business. Getting a long term visa requires so much effort and money, that it’s likely not feasible for this group of workers.

taeric 4y ago

I'm inclined to take your side on this. By virtue of being undocumented, they should be boosting the perceived productivity, not dampening it. If I was to steelman the idea, though; I would guess that removing incentives in the form of higher pay will lower the contributions of everyone involved?

michaelmrose 4y ago
If your labor hours are billable why on Earth should undocumented in this context mean unaccounted for?
- taeric 4y ago
  I think I understand the question. The disagreement seems to be what "undocumented worker" here means. If you think it means the worker is on the books, but is not a citizen, then you get to your question. It should be roughly the same. If you think it means that the worker was off the books, regardless of citizenship, then you arrive at the other. My consideration is if I am a cleaner and get my child to help out on a few jobs, my child will not be a documented worker and it will be a transparent boost to my productivity. Indeed, many subcontractors and migrant workers will use family as a cheap way to boost productivity so that they can take more jobs. I grant that construction may land on the other interpretation. There are usually more rules for that kind of work. (Though, in rural areas? Not sure.)

kube-system 4y ago

Undocumented workers show up in many statistics. "Undocumented" doesn't literally mean that there is nothing recorded about this person, it means they do not have permission to work in the US.

lazzlazzlazz 4y ago

"Undocumented" means they lack citizenship or a valid visa. It doesn't mean they aren't calculated in productivity statistics. Many undocumented workers even pay taxes to the IRS, are counted in censuses, and more.

hn_go_brrrrr 4y ago

"Undocumented" is the current preferred euphemism for "illegal immigrant".

pphysch 4y ago
"Illegal immigrant" is a dysphemism for "cheap labor".
elmomle 4y ago
Or, "illegal immigrant" is a sometimes-used dysphemism for "undocumented immigrant". I'm not aware of any other class of people who break a law who are called "illegal" as a result; it's a rather dehumanizing impulse.
- parineum 4y ago
  What part of "illegal" or "immigrant" implies a person is not a human? It's just shorthand for "person who has immigrated illegally" anyway, arguing over these words is a distraction. You have any solutions?
  - medvezhenok 4y ago
    Yes, fix legal immigration: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/annual-number-of-us-legal-permanent-residents https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/ann... The current legal immigration levels are way too low, hence people breaking the law trying to establish roots in the country (or fleeing persecution elsewhere). We used to call people foreign-born instead of illegal, and not care about their immigration status at all. Oh, wait - that's when the Europeans were immigrating: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/annual-number-of-us-legal-permanent-residents https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/ann... If many many people are breaking a law (i.e. jaywalking), one should consider whether the law is actually reasonable in the first place.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  People refer to other people who break the law by the law they broke all the time. Thieves, murders, fraudsters, etc Illegal immigrant doesn't seem especially derogatory for someone who illegally immigrated. I think it would be better to focus on the fact their felony crime rate is far below the native population than arguing over a pretty tame word used to describe them.

Uehreka 4y ago

Not necessarily. Undocumented doesn’t mean “excluded from the stats”, it means “doesn’t have a valid work visa or social security number”. I’m not sure if something similar happens in construction, but I’ve heard that in the landscaping business a supervisor will just pull up to a Home Depot with a pickup truck, and there’ll be a bunch of people waiting around, and they’ll go “Who wants $X for Y hours?” And then 4 or 5 guys get in the back of the truck and they head to the work site. In a situation like that, you’re probably keeping track of how many people you employ each day so you can figure out how many you need for future projects, but you’re not gonna be able to produce a list of social security numbers if someone asked.

56friends 4y ago
Just speculating, but the number of people who are here legally but do not have a work permit is probably not significant in the construction business. Getting a long term visa requires so much effort and money, that it’s likely not feasible for this group of workers.