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Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

• languagehacker 4y ago
  This article doesn't mention whether it prevents the cardiovascular depression that actually kills most people exposed to fentanyl. If the vaccine doesn't prevent that, it's useless. A vaccine that makes fentanyl less "fun" doesn't do anything for the people who ingest it thinking that it's something entirely different.
  • mdanger007 4y ago
    A vaccine doesn't work unless it helps the tiny fraction of fentenyl deaths who unintentnially take the drug? How about this: You're less likely to come in contact with the drug if there are fewer users getting high off it.
    • D13Fd 4y ago
      Yeah but my understanding is that most of the overdosing are from people seeking something else. In some cases it’s akin to a contamination problem.
      • kjkjadksj 4y ago
        We are at the point in the fentanyl epidemic where most users are specifically seeking out fentanyl or fentanyl laced drugs.
        • factsarelolz 4y ago
          Because fentanyl is way cheaper by itself. Why mix in more expensive drugs? The issue is China, full stop.
          • kjkjadksj 4y ago
            Exactly, fentanyl is now cheaper than most other drugs and opiods. So many opioid users have just switched to fentanyl. Why pay extra for heroin? The issue is also the cartel in mexico, fentanyl is produced there too. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
            • factsarelolz 4y ago
              I agree. Blows my mind that I was downvoted so hard on my factual comment. But it is HN.
        • amanaplanacanal 4y ago
          I suspect most people looking for cocaine or methamphetamine or mdma are not looking for fentanyl.
          • kjkjadksj 4y ago
            Maybe, but theres also a huge market for fentanyl specifically because its the cheapest opioid you can get your hands on. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
        • noptd 4y ago
          Citation needed.
          • kjkjadksj 4y ago
            Here you go! Plenty of similar articles out there if you search for this yourself. I’ve also seen people break up these pills and put into glass pipes to smoke at the train station. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe...
    • adamsmith143 4y ago
      Is there some group of people who are taking fentanyl en masse intentionally? I know a few people who have died after taking what they thought were bars or ecstasy and died because it was laced with fentanyl. I know 0 who go out of their way to find and take fentanyl.
      • agentwiggles 4y ago
        Wildly anecdotal, this is like thirdhand info, so take with a bunch of salt. But I have heard before that heroin/opioid addicts have begun to deliberately seek fentanyl because it's cheaper and more potent. It makes at least some sense given the common narrative of the pipeline from painkiller addiction to heroin (i.e. it's the same relationship - people who are addicted to painkillers may transition to heroin because it's cheaper and more powerful).
        • KMag 4y ago
          I've heard it's cheaper, but the half-life is so short that just to keep the withdrawal symptoms at bay, addicts need to dose more often than if they're using heroine, oxycodone, etc.
      • KMag 4y ago
        Right. My understanding is that it's very common to have fake oxycodone or heroine that's fentanyl or carfentanyl, and the short half-life of fentanyl and carfentanyl means that addicts will get withdrawl symptoms in just a few hours. My understanding is that heroine and oxycodone have long enough half-lives that many people can hold down jobs and generally be pretty functional by taking small doses before work (and maybe mid-shift, not sure). My understanding is that it's nearly impossible to do something similar with fentanyl/carfentanyl. Though, I have little exposure to hard drug culture, and get most of my information from headlines.
      • denimnerd42 4y ago
        Yes people take fentanyl intentionally. The real heroin, the real opioid pills, and other forms of opioids have mostly dried up. Now we get fentanyl and fentanyl analogs, and other potent synthetic opioids that aren't well tracked. The reason is that it's extremely potent so it's easier to smuggle from China, Mexico, wherever it's being made. So now you get "pressies" [homemade pressed pills] which is diluted fentanyl. Everyone knows it's fentanyl. Everyone knows you can't get real heroin in the US anymore. They know these fake pills aren't real. Even worse, when the fentanyl dries up they start cutting it with xylazine and other bullshit that narcan doesn't even work on. Research areas such as Kensington and the blighted areas of Baltimore. There's videos on youtube showing just how many users are out on the streets. You can imagine how many more are still not down to that level yet. You can also look at the opioid and drug subreddits. It's all fent and everyone wishes they could get their impure crappy brown heroin back.
    • DiabloD3 4y ago
      Let's go another way with this: You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user, even if you work for law enforcement, even if you're a LEO in a major metro. 10x people died of heart attacks than any opioid, not only fentenyl, over the past few years. Almost as many people died of cancer as heart attacks, and half as many people died of COVID as cancer. Obviously, you can't equate research with other research; research and the drive to do research as a researcher is not a fungible item, but if we're spending tax payer money on it, why not a vaccine for foods that are low in fat, low in sodium, low in nutrition, and high in simple and processed carbs? That could save 700k+ lives a year in the US, more worldwide; and given that is also linked to cancer as the primary driver of it outside of smoking and drinking, another 600k+.
      • spywaregorilla 4y ago
        > Let's go another way with this: You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user, even if you work for law enforcement, even if you're a LEO in a major metro. I'm gonna need a citation for that outrageous claim > Obviously, you can't equate research with other research; research and the drive to do research as a researcher is not a fungible item, but if we're spending tax payer money on it, why not a vaccine for foods that are low in fat, low in sodium, low in nutrition, and high in simple and processed carbs? That could save 700k+ lives a year in the US, more worldwide; and given that is also linked to cancer as the primary driver of it outside of smoking and drinking, another 600k+. Because that is nonsense. We don't have that technology.
        • rrdharan 4y ago
          > Because that is nonsense. We don’t have that technology. https://www.theringer.com/2023/1/20/23562871/america-isnt-ready-for-weight-loss-drug-revolution-medication-health-care-exercise-ozempic https://www.theringer.com/2023/1/20/23562871/america-isnt-re...
          • spywaregorilla 4y ago
            That is nothing like a "vaccine for junk food"
    • ARandomerDude 4y ago
      And how do you propose we get all the users vaccinated with the fentanyl jab? Another round of mass vaccinations? Make all the kids in school do it? Forced vaccinations for anyone in jail or rehab? Honestly, all of those seem like bad ideas.
      • KMag 4y ago
        If the government subscribed wholly to utilitarian ethics, it's arguable that it would be an ethical imperative to contaminate the fentanyl supply with vaccine. I don't agree, and think it's immoral and unethical to subject citizens to such medical treatment without informed consent. However, under some ethical systems, the improvement in aggregate health makes in an ethical necessity.
        • freedomben 4y ago
          The US government has actually done similar things before, such as poisoning bootlegged alcohol with methanol. It's good that you bring it up because at some point somebody in power will.
          • mdanger007 4y ago
            Drug treatment is a common alternative to jail time. Clean drug tests are often a condition of bail and parole.
      • Ekaros 4y ago
        Didn't we already do it? Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places?
        • factsarelolz 4y ago
          > Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places? Over a one's own choice to not have a medical procedure? Should we do the same to those whom have abortions? Who gets to make a choice on what medical procedures a population should have? Why is it not the individuals decision?
• hwbehrens 4y ago
  I can imagine such a thing being a double-edged sword, in that it blocks the analgesic effects of the drug as well as the high. Doubly so if this one is a success and they make similar versions targeting other addictive painkillers. I can imagine people taking the vaccine proactively (the normal way people think about vaccines, after all) from the perspective of, "I don't want to become an addict, I better take this!" and then later regretting their choice when their options are limited in terms of pain management. However, if you limit the vaccine to people in recovery, then the harm reduction itself is blunted because the initial adverse event (addiction) has already happened, and this would only affect secondary harms (relapse). I guess it's better to have more tools in the toolbox, at least, but I'm a bit concerned that these tools might be used injudiciously once they exist.
  • dylan604 4y ago
    > and this would only affect secondary harms (relapse). But this is a HUGE step. If you could drop the relapse rate, that would be a major accomplishment.
  • joecot 4y ago
    If we limit it to people who are using non-prescription drugs, without judgement, this will be the Game Changer they describe. First Heroin, but now cocaine, and even black market cannabis, are being tainted with fentanyl. For that set of people, stopping an accidental poisoning is much more important than potential complications with pain medication later.
    • freedomben 4y ago
      This seems utterly insane to me as a solution compared to just making it possible (without facing extreme criminal penalties) to buy what you think you are buying. I haven't checked but I would guess that the number of fentanyl deaths for people who buy cannabis from legal businesses don't typically get product that is contaminated.
    • LarryMullins 4y ago
      > even black market cannabis, are being tainted with fentanyl I've heard claims like this for decades, it was and probably still is a frequent claim made by cops and teachers giving DARE presentations in American public schools. It doesn't make much sense and never did, why would weed dealers be giving people more drugs than they actually paid for? It sounds like a cope excuse people come up with on the spot when they don't want to admit what drugs they were actually taking. Ask an alcoholic after a car accident how many drinks they had: "I only had one beer, I don't know how this could have happened!" Ask a fent-head after the OD what happened: "I don't know, I only smoked a little weed!" Yeah right. inb4 "dealers do it to get people addicted"; it's weed, it sells itself.
• qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Synthetic depression pill developed just wouldnt have that headline.
• shadowgovt 4y ago
  This is a good time to remind people that https://twitter.com/justsaysinrats https://twitter.com/justsaysinrats exists for a reason. ... and, indeed, the uh.edu article only tangentially indicates that the actual study (https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4923/14/11/2290/htm https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4923/14/11/2290/htm) has only been conducted in rats at this time. Interesting, but since it's brain chemistry we should be wary of getting too excited about the likelihood that this chemical pathway works similarly enough in rats and humans to allow for the drug to be translated (many pathways do! But many don't, and the more complex the system the less likely it translates without deleterious side-effects).
  • pazimzadeh 4y ago
    Isn't the whole point of doing it in rats that it's way more similar to humans than say Drosophila flies? Somewhat related: has the result from the Rat Park experiment been debunked or shown not to apply in humans? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
    • slowking2 4y ago
      The link you posted says that the original rat park researcher's own graduate student was unable to replicate the original experiment when he tried reducing the confounds. That seems like the most favorable possible situation for a replication to me. It also says that one confound was that morphine consumption wasn't measured in the same way between conditions in the original experiment. That seems pretty bad to me. Linked article also mentions that other researchers have had trouble replicating the results fully. Rat park doesn't consistently apply to rats, so why should its results be considered particularly informative about humans? Has someone done a much better study on rats since then? Significantly larger N, always taking measurements the same way across conditions, genetics carefully controlled or at least measured? I'm not an animal behavior researcher, so I'm sure there could be other things important to handle. Rats are certainly more similar to humans that flies are, but that doesn't mean any particular study is informative about humans.
      • 4y ago
• armatav 4y ago
  Watch this therapy disable the painkilling potential of every opioid in the body, including natural opioids.
  • elil17 4y ago
    The article actually discusses this: “The anti-fentanyl antibodies were specific to fentanyl and a fentanyl derivative and did not cross-react with other opioids, such as morphine. That means a vaccinated person would still be able to be treated for pain relief with other opioids,” said Haile.
    • Perenti 4y ago
      What about twilight anesthesia? With my cardiac problem, I can't have general anesthetics, but I can have Fentanyl/Midazolam to sedate and numb up a bit. Saying "it's specific to fentanyl" doesn't help those for whom fentanyl is a life saving drug. The reply above that the real issue is WHY Americans like fentanyl so much is on the money in my opinion.
      • elil17 4y ago
        Well the idea is not for everyone to get OUD vaccines. They would be targeted to people with OUD. If you did have OUD, this treatment would unfortunately probably not work for you due to your cardiac problem. However, depending on the severity of OUD and how effective this vaccine turns out to be, it might be worth forgoing the possibility of surgery.
        • Perenti 4y ago
          Forgoing surgery in my case would be rather fatal. One catch is that if you're undiagnosed with some problem like mine (Brugada Syndrome) you might get the vaccine before you know that's a bad idea. I have, in the past, been dependent on opioids thanks to my broken body, and yeah, getting off them has challenges. But I think the key is WHY some people like them so much. There's something a bit off when the aim is to take so much you vomit but don't die, which I'm given to believe is the "ideal" recreational dose.
• orblivion 4y ago
  Flash reactions: * You could identify fentanyl passed off as heroin, cocaine, etc because they don't work as well. * "Damn this cocaine is weak. Maybe I need to take more" - I could imagine this leading to more fentanyl overdoses. * Something like this happened in neuromancer.
  • elil17 4y ago
    Opioid overdoses are typically due how opioids effect the brain, so this would prevent fentanyl from contributing to and overdose.
    • pessimizer 4y ago
      Opioid overdoses are typically due to overestimation of one's tolerance or underestimation of the strength of the drug being taken, and what you are responding to is a way that a weakened fentanyl effect could lead to that.
      • elil17 4y ago
        You could still OD, but it would not be a fentanyl OD, because the fentanyl in the drug would not be able to interact with the brain. If you took this vaccine, it seems like you would be just as likely to OD from heroin as you would from fentanyl+heroin.
    • orblivion 4y ago
      Yeah that did cross my mind. I wonder if it really blocks it at the same level that you're talking about.
      • elil17 4y ago
        That is part of the goal of the vaccines, but I don't think there is enough trial data to know yet.
  • version_five 4y ago
    > Something like this happened in neuromancer. Right, and Case bought betaphenethylamine instead of speed which was way harsher. That's exactly what is going to happen, some more potent drug that escapes the vaccine is going to get more popular. It's a bandaid solution that ignores the root cause (drug prohibition)
• ortusdux 4y ago
  As I understand it, this would have significant negative impact on anesthesia.
  • elil17 4y ago
    Although fentanyl is used for anesthesia, especially for deep sedation, it is not the only option. From the article: “The anti-fentanyl antibodies were specific to fentanyl and a fentanyl derivative and did not cross-react with other opioids, such as morphine. That means a vaccinated person would still be able to be treated for pain relief with other opioids,” said Haile So they could still use other opioids for anesthesia.
    • ortusdux 4y ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/yvnr4n/comment/iwgi97v https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/yvnr4n/comment/iwg... "So I’m an anesthesiologist. This vaccine would wreak havoc with surgery. Fentanyl is the go-to opioid for surgery. If you can’t use fentanyl then sufentanil can be used instead. Both are desirable because they have durations of under an hour which allows for surgical analgesia but still waking the patient after the procedure. The abstract here says the vaccine blocks both fentanyl and sufentanil. They don’t mention alfentanyl or remifentanil which would be the remaining options. Morphine, hydromorphone, codeine etc are all inappropriate for short surgical cases as the sole opioid because their durations of action are closer to 4 hours."
      • elil17 4y ago
        Of course fentanyl is the preferred opioid for a reason. Using other options could increase surgical risks. But that seems pretty insignificant for anyone with OUD given how likely they are to die from overdose vs. other causes.
        • tpmoney 4y ago
          Proposal, people with "opioid use disorders" are more than likely suffering in some way that needs evaluation and treatment. Many of them were probably on something and then cut off suddenly from the supply of that something, leading them to seek illicit sources instead and leaving them in the position of both unregulated treatment, and being unable to get proper regulated treatment because they are labeled either addicts by people who know about their illicit use, or "drug seeking" by people who don't that they ask for access to their drug of choice and almost all sources of proper health will refuse to treat them without them first continuing to insist they stop their use entirely. Cutting them off suddenly again by simply making their drug of choice stop working does nothing at all to address the underlying reason why they think or do need the drug and treatment in the first place. Given that our medical system often gives you a drug and then kicks you out the door to deal with it and its effects on your own, this "vaccine" seems more likely to exacerbate the larger drug problem, even if the specific "opioid" problem is solved. More likely rather than getting someone off their drug habit, this will simply drive users its forced on into seeking out other drugs to get the same results, possibly at higher and even more unsafe dosages. Drug use is a symptom, and until our medical community wises up to that fact, the fight against any "drug use disorder" is going to continue to be a losing fight.
• m0llusk 4y ago
  Legalized cocaine would be tested for fentanyl and other potential contaminants.
  • aliqot 4y ago
    It's already legalized, requires prescription or license to administer.
• shadowtree 4y ago
  Pray you then never get cancer or other nasty shit that requires proper painkillers.
  • sandermvanvliet 4y ago
    The article mentions that it’s specifically targeted at fentanyl and doesn’t interact with other opioids such as morphine
    • ceejayoz 4y ago
      And fentanyl specifically exists because of the downsides of other opioids such as morphine.
    • freedomben 4y ago
      Fentanyl is preferred for cancer patients and end-of-life patients for a reason. Morphine is difficult to administer efficaciously at those levels of suffering, and has some very undesirable side effects (so I've been told. IANA Anesthesiologist).
• lazyeye 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • chitowneats 4y ago
    No, it's a miracle painkiller used by doctors all over the world. Just like oxycontin it has a legitimate medical use.
    • cinntaile 4y ago
      Please don't do this, it's very tiring to discuss like this. He's obviously talking about illegal fentanyl use.
      • pessimizer 4y ago
        It takes effort to discuss things with people who don't already agree with you.
      • chitowneats 4y ago
        I agree, it is very tiring when people suggest that medicine was invented and manufactured by the Chinese so that specifically Americans would abuse it. "Grey zone warfare". This is a wild conspiracy theory. It's on par with the Chinese conspiracy theory that COVID was an American bioweapon.
        • lazyeye 4y ago
          Really? I think a country like China could shutdown the export of Fentanyl precursor chemicals to bad actors almost overnight if they chose too. Im not suggesting the CCP is manufacturing it themselves but that they are happy to stand aside and do nothing. Not a conspiracy theory at all.
        • chimineycricket 4y ago
          It's not a conspiracy. China makes fentanyl, ships some to Mexican cartels, and actually helps the cartels launder their money through Chinese bank accounts. No US jurisdiction there.
• euthymiclabs 4y ago
  It's provocative in rats, but there's lessons from similar attempts that need to be considered. Cocaine-specific vaccines have been in development for years, and they haven't been successful. The biggest problem is that you need people to maintain an enormous concentration of antibodies against the drug so that even minute quantities are captured within seconds of entering the blood stream. Even if you can achieve an initial therapeutic levels, you need to constantly boost the vaccine to maintain high antibody titer. All of these attempts have targeted people with cocaine use disorder and are able to focus on shots every few weeks to months. We're nowhere close to developing something that would work as a routine preventative vaccination. We do have a once a month injection of naltrexone that can block all opioids, which can be effective in the right person. A targeted approach to fentanyl alone would probably work in people who don't have an opioid use disorder (and therefore wouldn't be as prone to substitution with an alternative opioid). This is an interesting step, but our understanding of immunology is far too limited to make this realistic in the near term.
• calibas 4y ago
  Oh boy, the pharmaceutical companies can sell a new product to help solve the mess that one of their previous products created. An opioid that's more potent, more addictive, and more deadly than heroin should never have gone to market in the first place. It speaks of enormous corruption and a complete lack of ethics when regulators didn't see an issue with fentanyl and let it move forward. The "but people are in pain" argument doesn't hold up very well when heroin is safer and has less potential for abuse but they already made illegal in the US.
  • floor2 4y ago
    >sell a new product to help solve the mess that one of their previous products created That's gotta describe like 75% of US healthcare budget, right? Red Dye #40, BPA, preservatives, emulsifiers, PFAS -> ADHD, Anxiety, Depression -> Adderall, Xanax, Prozac Sugar, seed oils, preservatives, endocrine-disrupting chemicals in food, water & air -> Obesity, hypertension, diabetes -> Lipitor, Insulin Alcohol, smoked/grilled meat, tobacco, microplastics, pesticide residues, air pollution from cars & factories -> cancer
    • l33t233372 4y ago
      I don’t think there’s a reputable link between red dye #40, BPA, preservatives, emulsifiers(?!) and ADHD, anxiety, and depression. Further, are you claiming meat, tobacco, and alcohol are products of the US pharmaceutical industry?
      • floor2 4y ago
        Literally everything on this list is supported by publicly available, peer-reviewed papers that could be found by 30 seconds of googling, but people downvote instead of being curious and learning something. Here's a layman-friendly article that covers several papers on red dye #40: https://www.verywellhealth.com/red-dye-40-adhd-5220957 https://www.verywellhealth.com/red-dye-40-adhd-5220957 Here's a page from Columbia university on BPA: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/research/columbia-center-childrens-environmental-health/bisphenol-bpa https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/research/columbia-cent... with quote "Researchers have linked BPA to developmental and health problems in children, including learning and behavior conditions like Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder (ADHD), anxiety and depression"
• miguelazo 4y ago
  This is good news, but the epidemic clearly has other major causes we're still not addressing. A pharmaceutical to combat an epidemic created by another blockbuster pharmaceutical seems very... dystopian.
• CerieXerox 4y ago
  > "a vaccinated person would still be able to be treated for pain relief with other opioids [such as morphine]" Good to hear, but at its worst, my pain was only relieved by fentanyl (administered by a professional in a hospital). Noticeably better than Dilaudid (hydromorphone). Is morphine a reliable replacement for fentanyl? Fentanyl is used quite often in palliative care because it lacks the side effects of morphine, is this correct?
• wdhilliard 4y ago
  Does this prevent death or just the perceived effects of the drug? This could be very dangerous for users who relapse. There is a known pattern of users who get off opioids then relapse and die because their bodies can no longer tolerate the doses that they were used to taking before they quit. This could have a similar effect where users take the drug, don't feel it, and then increase their dose to lethal levels hoping that they can get high again or believing that the drugs they purchased are diluted or ineffective.
  • wswope 4y ago
    Can you elaborate on your point of confusion? The mechanism of action was explained in the article.
    • orblivion 4y ago
      That's strange that they describe the selling point as being that you can't get high anymore. If it's really attacking and neutralizing the chemical per se, and if it's truly neutralized in every way, that would mean it would stop overdoses. That seems like a much bigger selling point.
      • wdhilliard 4y ago
        Exactly. Hard to treat someone who is dead
    • cwkoss 4y ago
      If the vaccine only suppresses opioid euphoria, users would continue dosing assuming they needed a higher dose to feel the effects leading to overdose and have possible respiratory failure.
    • wdhilliard 4y ago
      My point of confusion is still my initial question. It was actually the description of the mechanism, as given, that had me questioning it's effects on the overall toxicity/danger of ingesting the drug. "Our vaccine is able to generate anti-fentanyl antibodies that bind to the consumed fentanyl and prevent it from entering the brain, allowing it to be eliminated out of the body via the kidneys. Thus, the individual will not feel the euphoric effects and can ‘get back on the wagon’ to sobriety,” said the study’s lead author Colin Haile" They clarify that this causes a user to not feel the positive effects of the drug, but I would assume that if the drug was also able to prevent overall mortality, they would be excited enough to mention it.
• AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
  Dear pharma, please (please, please!) make something to fight food addiction?
  • 1attice 4y ago
    Wegovy?
    • AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
      Will it stop me getting high on food? If so, it's a blessing.
      • 1attice 4y ago
        I believe so. But do please recall that your consciousness supervenes on a maschine made of meat, and spent several billion years wiring itself to get a dopamine hit from, yes, nutrients. It's called walking the gradient ;D There's no cure, alas, for being a neural network
  • whoomp12342 4y ago
    the fashion industry tried and failed
  • plusminusplus 4y ago
    Bulimia or similar? Treatment options already exist. (Unless this is a joke about eating disorders)
• jrochkind1 4y ago
  This is kind of strange. Is it really fentanyl-specific, or does it effect all opioids? Problems either way; if just fentanyl, then, duh, that's not the only way to get high. If all opioids... So it makes opioids no longer available for pain relief... forever? ("vaccine"?). (Major surgery and recovery without opioids is no walk in the park, it's PTSD-inducing excruciating pain). It claims to block the ability to get high -- does it also block overdose potential? Or is this just going to lead to lots of people OD'ing as they try to take enough to get high? One way or another, it seems likely to lead to even greater harm as addicted people look for something else that does work. Honestly seems like a bad idea overall, based on wrong and unuseful ideas about the nature of addiction.
  • bt1a 4y ago
    This is an incredible opportunity to save lives. You need to familiarize yourself with accidental opioid overdose deaths. Most people who die from a fentanyl overdose were not intending to ingest fentanyl. Fentanyl is often used to boost the strength of more expensive opioids sold on the street. Fentanyl is very cheap to produce compared to heroin or whatever is the flavor of the month pressed pill. People die because the recreational dose for an opioid like heroin isn't many orders of magnitude away from the LD50
    • jrochkind1 4y ago
      I see what you mean, but: "Once feared, illicit fentanyl is now a drug of choice for many opioid users: People with opioid-use disorder are increasingly seeking out illicit fentanyl, often smoking it." https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fentanyl-now-drug-choice-many-opioids-users-rcna40418 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/feared-illicit-fe... (I really do know that everything you read in popular media about drug use in general, and opioid use specifically, cannot necesssarily be trusted. But my understanding from several sources is that this is so. The fact that fentanyl is cheaper for the effect is a reason a user might choose it too, or it may simply be what is available, or affordable) Whether users are intentionally seeking and/or aware of getting fentanyl or not, I am saying that the consequences of making someone's dose not have the effect they are looking for can often be that they take more (getting more of all of the substances that were in the dose, known or unknown), or that they switch to an alternate supply/substance. Either of which can have very dangerous outcomes. I won't tell you what you need to familiarize yourself with, or assume I know what you are or are not familiar with.
• bastardoperator 4y ago
  Or just make fentanyl very hard to prescribe? We are getting dumber by the minute.
  • ok_dad 4y ago
    The drug war proved that making it harder to get things doesn’t help.
  • friedman23 4y ago
    The problem is not fentanyl prescriptions, it's fentanyl being slipped into other drugs. I imagine for a drug user this could be a life saver.
  • sterlind 4y ago
    nearly all the fentanyl on the street is illegally manufactured, not diverted from prescriptions. fentanyl is ideal for smuggling because of how potent it is, and ideal for clandestine manufacture because it doesn't require opium as a starting material.
  • nyolfen 4y ago
    most fentanyl is manufactured in clandestine labs in mexico and distributed by drug gangs
    • cantSpellSober 4y ago
      Most fentanyl is manufactured in China, most illicit fentanyl is produced in Mexico. (nitpick)
      • nyolfen 4y ago
        i suspect illicit fentanyl greatly outweighs legitimate at this point
        • cantSpellSober 4y ago
          any reason but speculation? If so, please inform the DEA! https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-008-20%20Fentanyl%20Flow%20in%20the%20United%20States_0.pdf https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-...
• fckgnad 4y ago
  Nothing wrong with this being on the front page. Just posting this here as a question. Is the reason why this is on the front page because a good number of software engineers addicted? Maybe you don't have the numbers but you yourself who's reading this may be personally interested in a vaccine?
  • birdyrooster 4y ago
    I think it’s more about interest in the system, threat and the mitigation. The technical nature of biochemistry attracts many to this forum. Biohackers if you will.
    • agentwiggles 4y ago
      Additionally I think a lot of hacker types are just interested in drugs and drug policy. There are lots of back and forths on here about "legalize all drugs" and stuff like that. There's a lot of hacker-related threads running through drug topics - there's the whole "hacking your mind" / psychonaut angle, there's the sorta libertarian intersection with the law, there's the counter-culture ideas and historical interest. Even as a kinda drug-interested guy though, I've always thought of opioids as strictly off limits recreationally, just too many downsides and they don't have the same "expand your mind" appeal as psychedelics or even weed. (Not really endorsing the idea of mind expansion, I think it's oversold, but it's part of the culture).
  • dougmwne 4y ago
    Hacker News is for any kind of intellectual curiosity. It’s right there in the community guidelines. And who knows, maybe this bit of creative immune system hacking will inspire a security researcher.
  • gwbas1c 4y ago
    Not me personally, but I distanced myself from some close college friends when I figured out they were using heroin. Both later cleaned up, one relapsed, and I bumped into the other at the funeral. So, yeah, the opiate problem effects more than just users.
  • 4y ago
• JackFr 4y ago
  Wait - do I not know what the word 'vaccine' means?
  • bobleeswagger 4y ago
    [flagged]
    • cantSpellSober 4y ago
      The COVID vaccine was designed to reduce the spread of an infectious disease, seems to fit the definition. Is there a different vaccine you refer to?
      • porkbeer 4y ago
        It used to mean something that actually gave you immunity to something. Like Polio.
        • cantSpellSober 4y ago
          No, I think it still meant something that reduces the spread infectious diseases. Like the COVID and Flu vaccines, the Polio vaccine does not provide 100% immunity to 100% of recipients. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4974751/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4974751/
          • Izkata 4y ago
            > something that reduces the spread infectious diseases. Like the COVID That one doesn't do that though.
            • cantSpellSober 4y ago
              don't forget the microchips amirite?!
        • 4y ago
• shaunxcode 4y ago
  The real issue here that people don't seem to want to face is the WHY. Why do so many people want to check out of life completely by abusing medicine? If we don't address that nothing is going to stop the drug abuse let alone the relapse and overdose. I'm not talking about "more 12 step" here but more of a Frommian psychoanalytic approach. You are broken because society is broken. You have the ability to change yourself and subsequently society. A lot more empowering than just "submit to a higher power" which is clearly not working for the majority of users.
  • P_I_Staker 4y ago
    There’s also the medical systems unwillingness to help certain people and medicate; then people end up on the street getting more dangerous drugs in an uncontrolled fashion.
  • fasthands9 4y ago
    I guess I'm a bit torn on this. Even if we had an extremely fair and equitable society with growth I imagine there'd still be plenty of people who feel rejected or lonesome at times. Or just like the feeling that these drugs give them above normal drugs. I drink alcohol a couple times a week and do edibles once a month. I'm sure some would argue I'm not fulfilled but I think the easier explanation is that a lot of times doing mind-altering drugs is...fun? And can be social.
    • newsclues 4y ago
      That sounds like a healthy amount of drugs. For people with self control like that, I think it would be healthy to trip once or twice a year and use stimulants (cocaine) for a party once a year. A heroin vacation to an opium den on occasion sounds wonderful. I certainly have used drugs socially (LSD in clubs or concerts can be fun), but also use them cannabis alone frequently.
      • arghnoname 4y ago
        This is the crazy thing about this whole issue. Some people can use drugs that are extremely harmful responsibly. It's a once-in-a-while excursion away from ordinary life. There's nothing wrong with having a scary drug, like heroin, a few times a year...except that for some people it leads to their entire life unraveling. This idea that we're all the same and because drugs are physically addictive (i.e., sustained use leads to withdrawal of use ceases) means everyone would become addicts if they tried it is a D.A.R.E. style falsehood. It's true for some, but seemingly not most. Even drugs/activities that don't seem physically very addictive, like pot and gambling, seem to have their addicts. I question what proportion of addiction is chemical and what is something deeper going on. It's a pity though. I don't think I'm prone to addiction, but for the sake of my fellow humans and a functioning society I reluctantly accept that these things shouldn't be widely accessible. I've become much more of a prohibitionist as I've gotten older.
• smm11 4y ago
  I'm waiting for the vaccine booster V4 myself.
• mrcwinn 4y ago
  Someone in my family died from fentanyl at 26. I knew him since he was a little kid. We don't know if they were aware of the presence of that substance, but they certainly were in a higher risk situation. They had a decent life and a loving, if imperfect, family. They just happened to fall into a rougher crowd in middle school and, despite more than a decade of support and help and money, never really broke out of it. One of my last conversations with this individual: they were excited to go to some convention in Minneapolis that was all about mushrooms and psychedelics. What struck me was how excited they were, how into that community they were. I couldn't relate. I thought to myself, isn't there anything in your life more exciting than this? Rewind 12 years, and I also have a memory of his fascination with tagging buildings on YouTube. The art of it aside, I was so struck by his ignorance to the fact that you're damaging someone else's personal property without their consent. To deepen the mystery: I grew up in an unstable household, suffered emotional abuse and physical abuse on one occasion. I remember sleeping at a friend's house for a week and begging them not to call the police. When I look at this deceased person's life, whatever grievances they had, it really pales in comparison to my experience. And yet I never touched drugs. It makes me think some choices are not our own - and if it is predestined in some way at birth, well then yes, more compassion is necessary. Whatever your personal views, it is objectively true that a vaccine would prevent some people from dying, so it's likely a good on balance. I'm sorry for those impacted by this.
  • jcutrell 4y ago
    I appreciate you sharing your experience, but keep in mind two things: 1. It's unclear what your family member was going through. Your own experience is much more salient to you, but battles are more and more invisible to external viewers, so it makes sense that you would characterize your experience as more difficult. It can be true that you had a horrible experience, and so did this person. There's a reason the "walk to school uphill both ways" meme exists. 2. Your sample size here is very small. Even if it is true that your experience was worse (we can't know for sure), your actions in that circumstance shouldn't be generalized to people-in-general, and the same applies for your family member. > It makes me think some choices are not our own - and if it is predestined in some way at birth, well then yes, more compassion is necessary. I'd encourage you to challenge whether predestination / loss of control is the qualifier for compassion. How can we know, for certain, why people make the choices they do? If you were predestined or not, we don't currently have a way to know. Would people deserve compassion if everything they go through is a direct and pure result of their choices and nothing else?
• 71a54xd 4y ago
  As someone who's not a drug addict or around people who use substances that might be tainted with it, I don't want this. If I'm in a car accident or a serious condition where I need immensely powerful pain-killers I sure as you know what want Fentanyl to work.
  • plusminusplus 4y ago
    > you know what want Fentanyl to work [sic] Your concerns are addressed in the article you're commenting on
    • Perenti 4y ago
      Not really. There are people for whom Fentanyl is the only real choice for use _during_ surgery. I'm one of them, and I don't want doctors mucking about inside my chest without ample pain relief.
      • plusminusplus 4y ago
        Interesting, can you explain why fentanyl is the only real choice, instead of alternatives, please?
        • Perenti 4y ago
          Fentanyl (and the derivative the vaccine works on) have very short half-lives, which is ideal for _minimal_ dosing during surgery. Any drug that lengthens the QT interval, or fucks with the S wave will bring about catastrophic heart failure in people with conduction channel issues. The only time alternative anesthetics are given to me for example is to induce heart failure in order to test new leads. I find the idea of a vaccine that makes therapeutic drugs fail to work quite scary personally.
• ThinkBeat 4y ago
  I can't see this being a good or sustainable idea. First it will probably just lead people to find other means of getting high. (if they want to). Second it might well make drug cartels reformulate the drugs to try to "bypass" the "locks" the vaccine placed. and that might mean even more dangerous versions flooding the market.
• cf141q5325 4y ago
  This is an utterly horrible idea. People are so caught up in the fear mongering that they forget that fentanyl is used in pain management in end of life care. Vaccinating yourself against the effects of pain meds is as stupid as it gets. And it gets really vicious once you start pushing this on people.
  • bragr 4y ago
    You wouldn't give this to the general population, only to addicts that couldn't get clean otherwise.
    • cf141q5325 4y ago
      Those might need the end of life pain management one day. Its what makes it so vicious. They are in no position to think the horrible consequences through. edit: Lets lot sugarcoat this. This is not a new idea. If you push this on somebody, you might as well torture them to death yourself. Its that bad of an idea and your motivation doesnt change the outcome. There are a whole lot of worse fates then being an addict and being in excruciating pain because of a preventable lack of end of life pain meds is one of them. You can look around, large parts of the world are doomed to this because of a merciless crusade against pain meds by people who couldnt deal with their loved ones choosing a drug. And i will be damned if its because nobody wanted to hurt their feelings by explaining this to them.
      • bragr 4y ago
        >Those might need the end of life pain management one day If you need end of life pain management, then it means you never fatally OD'd on fentanyl, which is the likely outcome of opiate addiction.
        • cf141q5325 4y ago
          That is a caricature. You can invest in naloxon if you are worried about that. Or better yet, go the route of Switzerland and provide safer alternatives for life long addicts. It does absolute wonders for their quality of life. The crux just is, that in this discussion, sober is the most important metric for a lot of people. Overlooking not just the end of life problems, but the simple truth that without drugs, a lot of those addicts would have killed themselves already. Drugs arent just a fly trap for the careless, they are a haven in the storm for the desperate. A shitty haven for sure, but in some situations less bad then the alternative. That distinction explains a lot of why all the warnings get ignored and all of the "education" on the topic finds only deaf ears.
• elil17 4y ago
  Seems like there is a lot of unwarranted criticism of this, and I think it is from a misunderstanding of how it would be used. This is meant to be a treatment targeted to people who are addicted to opioids. It would prevent overdose deaths due to heroin and pills which have unexpectedly large amounts of fentanyl (e.g. due to mistakes made when the supplier cut the drug). If taken in combination with proposed heroin and oxy vaccines, it could prevent many opioids from being effective - that could be a tool someone uses to help stop themselves from relapsing in the future. Someone taking this would have to way the benefits against the risks of not being able to take fentanyl when needed (e.g. for surgery).
• inasio 4y ago
  I used to follow Naltrexone trials: blocks opioids by having higher affinity in brain receptors), in principle it can work as a one month injection, but the results were also pretty poor. Even in well functioning medical professionals with opioid addiction, adherence was pretty poor. The hypothesis I remember was that the drug didn't have any tangible benefit, so it was hard to continue using it.
  • Jerrrry 4y ago
    I am curious and have been researching this chemical and related structures recently.
• Jerrrry 4y ago
  I was just about to create a new account anyway and my stephangaphy evidently is uncorrelatable, so may as well signoff with a likely-in-vain AMA: Ask a daily Fentanyl user/addict anything? Irony. The kids trying to play it safest are the ones who end of dying. A friends 5mg Percocet or 7.5 Vicodin Pills feel nice. Not really the first time, but the second? You're a little happier. a somehow pure, happy blissful moment. pure satisfaction. the world is exactly as it should be - youre at a party in high school! and youre doing the cool stuff!. things change slow, sometimes fast. depends on the money involved, and where and how the pills originate. but once they originate, they are analogous to a social endemic. Pills feel nice, but they do eventually creep up, financially and tolerantly and socially, until you really need that one girls brother to be at KMart by 5:50 or your stomach will hurt Tuesday. All friendships are simply transactional, ledgers of who gave who what when, and, but "she owed me!"? But those people are dead now, because they were smart, and better. The were just doing medication. They weren't doing actual, yanno, _drug_ _drugs, like heroin or meth. Only dumbasses did that. The dumbasses like myself - we did the math - the $dollar per / dopamine! we werent the dumb ones. Why buy 4x Perc30s for $60e each to barely feel a nod when a $5bump of H will do that and more....But we were the rest able to ride the dovetails of the last bit of domestic heroin import. Because of that, our tolerance and slow unremarkable experience and slow taper into being Fent intake saved the ultimate mortal moment, and prevented our inevitable unexpected encounter with the substance being our last mistake - yet. Do I get high anymore? Only because I went without, and got relief. Sometimes my eyes feel droopy, or the two top most contexts in my stack of a RAM were just swapped, leading me uncontrollably to say something I was thinking about a moment ago. Did I ever get high? Surely this year of continuous, continual odding had to be enjoyable. I didn't do that math too accurately recently - felt too good for too long. Better refrain slightly tomorrow. Lest a lapse - and we can't have that, can we?
• Balgair 4y ago
  Aside: Fentanyl is commonly used in the epidural during childbirth. Severe allergies to other opiates occur in about 1/50 people.