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> I didn't know Toyota was a fossil fuel company, or was owned by one? > Japan is uniquely trying to make this thing work You have conflated Toyota with Japan
by danans 4y ago
> I didn't know Toyota was a fossil fuel company, or was owned by one?
> Japan is uniquely trying to make this thing work
You have conflated Toyota with Japan there. Even in a society dominated by it's megacorps, they are not necessarily the same thing. After all, Nissan brought us the first mass market EV (and yes, they promptly punted on their first mover advantage).
> Anywhere else on the planet: sure, this might be another way for big fossil to push for relevancy, but in Japan's case, hydrogen would be something that they can produce themselves, literally freeing them from fossil fuel dependency,
Any domestic production of hydrogen in Japan would have to be via water electrolysis with electricity, since they have basically no natural gas production. Since that's the case, why not just use the electricity directly and not pay the 40-50% penalty of electrolysis?
> The very idea of "my car needs to go 300 miles on one charge/tank" just isn't a thing there.
> Hydrogen, despite this article's claim, is actually perfect for Japan.
The first statement contradicts the second, because one of the benefits of hydrogen over batteries is that range isn't much of an issue and refueling is fast. That's why the only place it might be viable in ground transport is in long haul trucking in the US.
In Japan, a 200 mile EV would probably be more than sufficient, even for longer trips, for exactly the reason you state.
- narrator 4y agoHydrogen will be the only thing that will work for long-haul aviation and large scale container shipping, in the form of ammonia (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/nilsrokke/2021/10/05/ammonia-a-sustainable-fuel-option-for-shipping/?sh=7eb3c1357c00 https://www.forbes.com/sites/nilsrokke/2021/10/05/ammonia-a-... ). that isn't synthetic fuel which is ridiculously inefficient to produce from electricity, even more so than hydrogen. Japan being an island, this might be important to them. Zero Avia (http://www.zeroavia.com http://www.zeroavia.com) is the leader in the hydrogen aviation space currently. The other thing about hydrogen is that you can refuel quickly. Otherwise, you're going to need a ridiculous number of charging stations to have the same amount of transportation just to deal with charging time alone. Can you imagine how long it would take to refuel a long-haul container ship and/or what kind of electricity infrastructure would be needed for that?
- danans 4y agoWhat does any of that have to do with passenger EVs?
- ruchir 4y ago> why not just use the electricity directly and not pay the 40-50% penalty of electrolysis? because EV battery disposal can be a huge environmental problem. electrolysis is zero waste.
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoEV batteries are recycled quite easily. The lithium alone makes recycling worth it, but pretty much everything about it can be recycled.
- ruchir 4y agothat's like saying plastics can be recycled quite easily. only in theory - the real effects on the environment are staggering.
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoBut in this case recycling is straightforward and incentivized enough that it happens in almost all cases. If the battery is still in working condition, it will be repurposed. Otherwise it will be broken down to get at the precious metals and used in a new battery production. Yes, this requires energy and materials are invariably lost, but it doesn’t get more ideal than a battery from a recycling perspective.
- danans 4y agoThe primary materials in batteries, mostly metals, do not degrade like plastic. Metals are extensively recycled today, unlike plastic. Furthermore, each battery cell has a potential lifetime after EV usage as part of a stationary storage system, before any recycling.
- ruchir 4y agohttps://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28 https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-re... "But very little recycling goes on today. In Australia, for example, only 2–3% of Li-ion batteries are collected and sent offshore for recycling, according to Naomi J. Boxall, an environmental scientist at Australia’s Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO). The recycling rates in the European Union and the US—less than 5%—aren’t much higher." Until and unless this recycling rate is provably 50% or higher at the time of an EV sale, you should not diss on a 50% loss of efficiency in electrolysis for an FCEV.