7 ms·

I think it's time for me to check out of the smartphone game. I really like them for travel, but this is crazy.

by jfoutz 15y ago

marknutter 15y ago
Why not just ditch every piece of technology then?
- jfoutz 15y ago
  It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead. the bigger question is, is working at foxconn better than starving on the farm? I don't know much about rural China. I have a hard time believing that people would be driven to suicide without the factory job. also, a lot of stuff i could likely make myself - i'm just to freaking lazy to buy the parts, solder them up, 3d print a case, and code up the OS. I'm not saying every company needs to be lilly white, but i'd pay an extra $50 for a device that had a significantly lower probability of driving the maker to suicide. -- edit -- to be clear, i could get a lot of what i want out of something like this: http://www.adafruit.com/products/330 http://www.adafruit.com/products/330 + wifi + gps. i'm pretty sure i can get a cellular connection via a sparkfun board. of course, i'd never get through security with a battery hungry monstrosity like that, but it's pretty doable. Also, someone will probably point out the parts come from places far worse than foxconn, so perhaps i'm screwed.
  - a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
    "It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead." I'm not taking a side, in this comment, on the Foxconn question. I believe the response from the anti-fur side to your observation is that, by continuing to wear and display the vintage fur, you help to prop up the perceived value of fur in general and encourage more furs to be ripped from the rodents.
  - srdev 15y ago
    I'm not sure what marknutter's intent was, but Foxconn really manufactures a lot of stuff beyond smartphones. PCs typically have Foxconn parts in them, as do routers. Any tablet you own has a good probability of being touched by Foxconn. Even if you get away from Foxconn completely, a lot of Chinese manufacturers have the same problems with less press. So the more pertinent question in my mind is, "Is there any company that sells ethically built technical gear?"
    - dreamdu5t 15y ago
      I think the pertinent question is, "What constitutes ethically built technical gear?"
      - philwelch 15y ago
        Aren't there some rare elements that are necessary for semiconductors to work that are only mined in impoverished African countries with poor political stability, working, and environmental conditions? Try going your life without ever using a semiconductor. You can't. Everything in the world is indirectly produced by a semiconductor. You'd have to practically move to Africa and become an open pit miner yourself. On the other hand, people are fond of pointing out that people who work at Foxconn are choosing what is far and away the best of all available options. So it's really a matter of cultural relativism whether a given set of conditions is good or bad. 100 years from now, are people going to feel guilty about using software that was developed by programmers working in cubicles? It's more likely than you think.
  - corin_ 15y ago
    > It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead. It could be argued that by getting rid of your phone, the person buying from you (or being given it) would not buy the new smartphone that they would otherwise have.
  - randomdata 15y ago
    > Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. Our society generally disagrees with the idea that the damage is already done. For example, we can look to child pornography. Technically speaking, the damage is already done, so we shouldn't be concerned about the photos themselves. However, the sale of the photographs still demonstrates a market for which others will continue to try to fill, and therein lies the problem. By buying a phone, the manufacturer of said phone will set those workers to work on the next generation phone in hopes that you will buy another. It's going to take a few generations for them to finally realize that you are no longer interested in buying their products.
  - nradov 15y ago
    Actually the rural suicide rate in China is supposedly pretty high. It's hard to come by exact numbers for something the government doesn't want to publicize. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6711415.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6711415.stm
- knieveltech 15y ago
  Ditch every piece of technology that's got a foundation in exploitation and human suffering? Challenge Accepted.
  - Karunamon 15y ago
    So you're going to basically have to resign from your job and probably stop using every piece of tech you currently do. I know this sounds overly snarky, but it's true. Those are the options. Either get out of tech on "principal", or realize that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, and use these devices to help change the way of things.
    - knieveltech 15y ago
      You're really blithely willing to label avoiding manufactured products that where constructed on the back of what equates to slave labor as "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? Simply put, until market pressures are brought to bear on companies like Apple to clean up their act on the manufacturing and sourcing side of the house nothing is going to change, regardless of what you do with your ipad.
      - srdev 15y ago
        The point is that nearly all the modern computing technology you're using is using what you call "slave labor" at some point in the supply chain. You name-drop Apple, and the article name-drops Microsoft, but its also Intel, IBM, Samsung, Sony, Acer, Asus, MSI, EVGA, and a myriad of other high-profile tech companies using Foxconn. It'd be more instructive to make a list of companies that are not using them. And even then, whats to say that they're not using equally poor labor that just hasn't been publicized like Foxconn has? In other words, in order to ditch every piece of technology that's got a foundation in human exploitation and suffering, you practically have to ditch technology altogether. That computer you were using to post was probably built in part on human exploitation.
  - Andys 15y ago
    Is there a market for this? I don't know of any "fair trade" electronics makers, that claim to produce good ethically.
TylerE 15y ago
I'm conflicted. Conditions for the lower class in China are abominable with industry or without. The alternative for those workers is to go back to their home village and do subsistence farming. It's not like they have a ton of options.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  Or you could buy a Galaxy Nexus, made in Korea. I agree, those workers are probably better off working at Foxconn than if they stayed in rural areas and survived by subsistence farming, but it's still a moral grey area. It's akin to saying that slaves lived longer and in better conditions picking cotton in Alabama than growing beans in Africa. It might be true, but it doesn't make it good.
  - dreamdu5t 15y ago
    Your analogy isn't applicable. What made them slaves is they were not allowed to return to Africa to do whatever. The Foxconn workers are not slaves. They can go back to farming or choose another job. An employee who serves you is not a slave because he makes less than you.
    - redthrowaway 15y ago
      That's not the analogy I was making. I was saying that there is a certain class of worker who, despite their bad conditions, is probably better off than they would be without the job. Forced or free doesn't factor into it; the question is to what extent supporting their employer is a moral act. Obviously forced labor is worse than free, but there's a continuum of ethical labor practices that both slavery and Foxconn (and any other employer) reside on. I was speaking to the ethical quandary of supporting companies on the low end of that scale, if the options for their employees are something even lower.
    - Deestan 15y ago
      > They can go back to farming Where? At the government-mandated pick-a-plot-land-for-free fair?
wtallis 15y ago
Open up any desktop computer and look around. I guarantee you'll find at least half a dozen parts made by Foxconn. This isn't just about smartphones, and it never has been. Foxconn has been all over the technology market for a long time.

I think it's time for me to check out of the smartphone game. I really like them for travel, but this is crazy.

by jfoutz 15y ago

I think it's time for me to check out of the smartphone game. I really like them for travel, but this is crazy.

marknutter 15y ago

Why not just ditch every piece of technology then?

jfoutz 15y ago
It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead. the bigger question is, is working at foxconn better than starving on the farm? I don't know much about rural China. I have a hard time believing that people would be driven to suicide without the factory job. also, a lot of stuff i could likely make myself - i'm just to freaking lazy to buy the parts, solder them up, 3d print a case, and code up the OS. I'm not saying every company needs to be lilly white, but i'd pay an extra $50 for a device that had a significantly lower probability of driving the maker to suicide. -- edit -- to be clear, i could get a lot of what i want out of something like this: http://www.adafruit.com/products/330 http://www.adafruit.com/products/330 + wifi + gps. i'm pretty sure i can get a cellular connection via a sparkfun board. of course, i'd never get through security with a battery hungry monstrosity like that, but it's pretty doable. Also, someone will probably point out the parts come from places far worse than foxconn, so perhaps i'm screwed.
- a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
  "It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead." I'm not taking a side, in this comment, on the Foxconn question. I believe the response from the anti-fur side to your observation is that, by continuing to wear and display the vintage fur, you help to prop up the perceived value of fur in general and encourage more furs to be ripped from the rodents.
- srdev 15y ago
  I'm not sure what marknutter's intent was, but Foxconn really manufactures a lot of stuff beyond smartphones. PCs typically have Foxconn parts in them, as do routers. Any tablet you own has a good probability of being touched by Foxconn. Even if you get away from Foxconn completely, a lot of Chinese manufacturers have the same problems with less press. So the more pertinent question in my mind is, "Is there any company that sells ethically built technical gear?"
  - dreamdu5t 15y ago
    I think the pertinent question is, "What constitutes ethically built technical gear?"
    - philwelch 15y ago
      Aren't there some rare elements that are necessary for semiconductors to work that are only mined in impoverished African countries with poor political stability, working, and environmental conditions? Try going your life without ever using a semiconductor. You can't. Everything in the world is indirectly produced by a semiconductor. You'd have to practically move to Africa and become an open pit miner yourself. On the other hand, people are fond of pointing out that people who work at Foxconn are choosing what is far and away the best of all available options. So it's really a matter of cultural relativism whether a given set of conditions is good or bad. 100 years from now, are people going to feel guilty about using software that was developed by programmers working in cubicles? It's more likely than you think.
- corin_ 15y ago
  > It's a really tough call. Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. i'd think of that as something like a vintage fur. the animal won't get any more dead. It could be argued that by getting rid of your phone, the person buying from you (or being given it) would not buy the new smartphone that they would otherwise have.
- randomdata 15y ago
  > Is it ok to keep using the phone i have? well, yeah. the damage is done. Our society generally disagrees with the idea that the damage is already done. For example, we can look to child pornography. Technically speaking, the damage is already done, so we shouldn't be concerned about the photos themselves. However, the sale of the photographs still demonstrates a market for which others will continue to try to fill, and therein lies the problem. By buying a phone, the manufacturer of said phone will set those workers to work on the next generation phone in hopes that you will buy another. It's going to take a few generations for them to finally realize that you are no longer interested in buying their products.
- nradov 15y ago
  Actually the rural suicide rate in China is supposedly pretty high. It's hard to come by exact numbers for something the government doesn't want to publicize. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6711415.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6711415.stm
knieveltech 15y ago
Ditch every piece of technology that's got a foundation in exploitation and human suffering? Challenge Accepted.
- Karunamon 15y ago
  So you're going to basically have to resign from your job and probably stop using every piece of tech you currently do. I know this sounds overly snarky, but it's true. Those are the options. Either get out of tech on "principal", or realize that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, and use these devices to help change the way of things.
  - knieveltech 15y ago
    You're really blithely willing to label avoiding manufactured products that where constructed on the back of what equates to slave labor as "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? Simply put, until market pressures are brought to bear on companies like Apple to clean up their act on the manufacturing and sourcing side of the house nothing is going to change, regardless of what you do with your ipad.
    - srdev 15y ago
      The point is that nearly all the modern computing technology you're using is using what you call "slave labor" at some point in the supply chain. You name-drop Apple, and the article name-drops Microsoft, but its also Intel, IBM, Samsung, Sony, Acer, Asus, MSI, EVGA, and a myriad of other high-profile tech companies using Foxconn. It'd be more instructive to make a list of companies that are not using them. And even then, whats to say that they're not using equally poor labor that just hasn't been publicized like Foxconn has? In other words, in order to ditch every piece of technology that's got a foundation in human exploitation and suffering, you practically have to ditch technology altogether. That computer you were using to post was probably built in part on human exploitation.
- Andys 15y ago
  Is there a market for this? I don't know of any "fair trade" electronics makers, that claim to produce good ethically.

TylerE 15y ago

I'm conflicted. Conditions for the lower class in China are abominable with industry or without. The alternative for those workers is to go back to their home village and do subsistence farming. It's not like they have a ton of options.

redthrowaway 15y ago
Or you could buy a Galaxy Nexus, made in Korea. I agree, those workers are probably better off working at Foxconn than if they stayed in rural areas and survived by subsistence farming, but it's still a moral grey area. It's akin to saying that slaves lived longer and in better conditions picking cotton in Alabama than growing beans in Africa. It might be true, but it doesn't make it good.
- dreamdu5t 15y ago
  Your analogy isn't applicable. What made them slaves is they were not allowed to return to Africa to do whatever. The Foxconn workers are not slaves. They can go back to farming or choose another job. An employee who serves you is not a slave because he makes less than you.
  - redthrowaway 15y ago
    That's not the analogy I was making. I was saying that there is a certain class of worker who, despite their bad conditions, is probably better off than they would be without the job. Forced or free doesn't factor into it; the question is to what extent supporting their employer is a moral act. Obviously forced labor is worse than free, but there's a continuum of ethical labor practices that both slavery and Foxconn (and any other employer) reside on. I was speaking to the ethical quandary of supporting companies on the low end of that scale, if the options for their employees are something even lower.
  - Deestan 15y ago
    > They can go back to farming Where? At the government-mandated pick-a-plot-land-for-free fair?

wtallis 15y ago

Open up any desktop computer and look around. I guarantee you'll find at least half a dozen parts made by Foxconn. This isn't just about smartphones, and it never has been. Foxconn has been all over the technology market for a long time.