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Yep, I know that, but it doesn’t offer anything else than a claim to authenticity, by posing as a continuation, while the previous revelations are then discarde

Yep, I know that, but it doesn’t offer anything else than a claim to authenticity, by posing as a continuation, while the previous revelations are then discarded. The mentions of Biblical persons and events, as I hinted in the previous comment, are cultural rather than theological, and can’t be used to establish theological continuity, no matter how hard the Ismaelite genealogy is pressed.

icemelt8 4y ago
entire islamic theology is based on Abraham and his actions, the rituals in the holy journey of Hajj and Umrah are all repeats of actions of Abraham and his family.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  Yep it’s a very narrow focus on one person, and disregards the millennium of Judaic and Christian traditions that followed on from Abraham. In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified. They all share the same god and the same origin story, and even share religious sites. Compare them to any other religion, and they are quite close.
    - jkepler 4y ago
      > They all share the same god ... Except that they don't share the same god. The Christian God is triune, one God existing in the three distinct persons of Father, Son, and Spirit, which the Jews and Muslims both reject. Further, though Judaism and Christianity agree that the only true creator God, YHWH (or Yahweh/Jehovah according to Christianity), has revealed himself in deeds and words, Islam says that his name is Allah. And of course, fundamental to Christianity is the acknowledgement of the full humanity /and/ full divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, crucified and resurrected. Judaism and Islam both reject those beliefs, thus we again see a difference on who God is. These three monotheistic religions each have separate conceptions of God.
      - sofixa 4y ago
        > The Christian God is triune, one God existing in the three distinct persons of Father, Son, and Spirit, which the Jews and Muslims both reject. The Protestant* god. Catholic and Orthodox disagree on that specific phrasing. https://christianityfaq.com/catholic-protestant-christianity-orthodox-comparison/ https://christianityfaq.com/catholic-protestant-christianity... As a non-religious person, the differences between the Catholic, Orthodox and various Protestant faiths aren't dissimilar to the differences between them all and Islam and Judaism.
      - cess11 4y ago
        Allah isn't a name in that sense, it's the arabic word that means God, and it's the one that christian arabs use when they talk about God from a christian perspective. There's a lot of different ideas about what monotheism and God means within those three, highly related, religious families too. It's very weird to single out islam in this way, seems political rather than historic or religious.
      - carapace 4y ago
        > [H]is name is Allah. "Allah" is not a name, it's the Arabic word for "God". > These three monotheistic religions each have separate conceptions of God. Right, separate human conceptions of the same God.
      - throw310822 4y ago
        The entire concept of "sameness" doesn't make sense when talking about objects that are unknowable or just non-existent. For example, two persons can describe in different terms a real object (say, a chair): in that case, the object exists independently from its descriptions and the two persons can eventually agree on the fact that there is indeed one object they were both looking at. But for objects that are unknowable or non-existent, it is the description that defines the object- and each description, unless entirely equivalent to the others, defines a different object. Therefore the idea that Abrahamic religions relate to the same God can only make sense from a perspective of faith.
    - MonkeyClub 4y ago
      > Compare them to any other religion, and they are quite close. Apples and oranges are quite close when compared to chairs and tables, but they’re different. Regarding the “same God” thing, you’re two thirds right, Islam being the other third.
  - simple-thoughts 4y ago
    Have you actually even met a Muslim? Most will consider Christian and Jews brothers in faith. There’s far more similarities than differences, contrasted with the local pantheistic religions Mohammad (PBUH) preached to replace.
  - lolinder 4y ago
    > Yep it’s a very narrow focus on one person That one person being Abraham. Hence "Abrahamic". If the adjective were "Davidic" you'd have a point, but the whole premise of the "Abrahamic religions" label is that they trace their religious genealogy back to Abraham. The label makes no claim about any shared history since then. EDIT: And as far as your claim of a lack of spiritual kinship—do you know anything about any of the non-Abrahamic religions? When you set Hinduism or Shinto into the mix, Islam practically looks like a sect of Christianity.
tasty_freeze 4y ago
> posing as a continuation, while the previous revelations are then discarded. Can't the same argument be raise for Christianity? I'm sure at the time of Jesus he saw himself as rectifying Jewish practice (and of course there are the passages where he says that the old laws are still in force), but pretty quickly Christianity was modified and sold to gentiles (thanks to Paul, who never met Jesus and wrote 13* of the 27 books of the New Testament) and the Mosaic laws were mostly set aside. The whole idea of "fulfillment theology" is that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and established a new law. That is why Christians eat pork and so on. * everyone agrees that three of those 13 weren't actually written by Paul, and three more are in various degrees of doubt
- mistrial9 4y ago
  Jungian here - with some small comparative religion training.. multiple primary "motiff" in the Christian stories are repeats of older themes but changed.. for the non-Bible side, lots of Germanic and Scandinavian folk stories have been rewritten as Christian-themes too
- elcritch 4y ago
  Christianity does largely embrace the previous revelations still, even if they don’t follow most of the regulations. Listen to any AM radio station preacher and you’re bound to hear about the 10 commandments, the psalms, etc. They have various degrees of reinterpretation but the original content is still widely used and promoted. In contrast Islam seems to only tangentially refer to the Tanakh or the New Testament and reading them is not encouraged AFAICT. Islam did however borrow many practices from both. I’d argue that in some ways Rabbinical Judaism is as divergent as Christianity from ancient Judaism in many ways. There’s no following of the temple sacrifices or rites, etc, so new traditions have been added. The central role of Israel as a physical country changed for many (much early Zionism was viewed dimly by religious Jews and primarily embraced by secular Jews). The Talmud is roughly in a similar position as the New Testament, etc. I say that as an academic exercise in parallels and not to demean the differences or history. I just find the thought exercise intriguing.
  - 4y ago
selimthegrim 4y ago
Waraqa bin Naufal, a Christian hermit who influenced Mohammad, is in certain conspiracy theories taken to have a great role in the origin of Islam.

icemelt8 4y ago

entire islamic theology is based on Abraham and his actions, the rituals in the holy journey of Hajj and Umrah are all repeats of actions of Abraham and his family.

MonkeyClub 4y ago
Yep it’s a very narrow focus on one person, and disregards the millennium of Judaic and Christian traditions that followed on from Abraham. In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified. They all share the same god and the same origin story, and even share religious sites. Compare them to any other religion, and they are quite close.
  - jkepler 4y ago
    > They all share the same god ... Except that they don't share the same god. The Christian God is triune, one God existing in the three distinct persons of Father, Son, and Spirit, which the Jews and Muslims both reject. Further, though Judaism and Christianity agree that the only true creator God, YHWH (or Yahweh/Jehovah according to Christianity), has revealed himself in deeds and words, Islam says that his name is Allah. And of course, fundamental to Christianity is the acknowledgement of the full humanity /and/ full divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, crucified and resurrected. Judaism and Islam both reject those beliefs, thus we again see a difference on who God is. These three monotheistic religions each have separate conceptions of God.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      > The Christian God is triune, one God existing in the three distinct persons of Father, Son, and Spirit, which the Jews and Muslims both reject. The Protestant* god. Catholic and Orthodox disagree on that specific phrasing. https://christianityfaq.com/catholic-protestant-christianity-orthodox-comparison/ https://christianityfaq.com/catholic-protestant-christianity... As a non-religious person, the differences between the Catholic, Orthodox and various Protestant faiths aren't dissimilar to the differences between them all and Islam and Judaism.
    - cess11 4y ago
      Allah isn't a name in that sense, it's the arabic word that means God, and it's the one that christian arabs use when they talk about God from a christian perspective. There's a lot of different ideas about what monotheism and God means within those three, highly related, religious families too. It's very weird to single out islam in this way, seems political rather than historic or religious.
    - carapace 4y ago
      > [H]is name is Allah. "Allah" is not a name, it's the Arabic word for "God". > These three monotheistic religions each have separate conceptions of God. Right, separate human conceptions of the same God.
    - throw310822 4y ago
      The entire concept of "sameness" doesn't make sense when talking about objects that are unknowable or just non-existent. For example, two persons can describe in different terms a real object (say, a chair): in that case, the object exists independently from its descriptions and the two persons can eventually agree on the fact that there is indeed one object they were both looking at. But for objects that are unknowable or non-existent, it is the description that defines the object- and each description, unless entirely equivalent to the others, defines a different object. Therefore the idea that Abrahamic religions relate to the same God can only make sense from a perspective of faith.
  - MonkeyClub 4y ago
    > Compare them to any other religion, and they are quite close. Apples and oranges are quite close when compared to chairs and tables, but they’re different. Regarding the “same God” thing, you’re two thirds right, Islam being the other third.
- simple-thoughts 4y ago
  Have you actually even met a Muslim? Most will consider Christian and Jews brothers in faith. There’s far more similarities than differences, contrasted with the local pantheistic religions Mohammad (PBUH) preached to replace.
- lolinder 4y ago
  > Yep it’s a very narrow focus on one person That one person being Abraham. Hence "Abrahamic". If the adjective were "Davidic" you'd have a point, but the whole premise of the "Abrahamic religions" label is that they trace their religious genealogy back to Abraham. The label makes no claim about any shared history since then. EDIT: And as far as your claim of a lack of spiritual kinship—do you know anything about any of the non-Abrahamic religions? When you set Hinduism or Shinto into the mix, Islam practically looks like a sect of Christianity.

tasty_freeze 4y ago

> posing as a continuation, while the previous revelations are then discarded. Can't the same argument be raise for Christianity? I'm sure at the time of Jesus he saw himself as rectifying Jewish practice (and of course there are the passages where he says that the old laws are still in force), but pretty quickly Christianity was modified and sold to gentiles (thanks to Paul, who never met Jesus and wrote 13* of the 27 books of the New Testament) and the Mosaic laws were mostly set aside. The whole idea of "fulfillment theology" is that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and established a new law. That is why Christians eat pork and so on. * everyone agrees that three of those 13 weren't actually written by Paul, and three more are in various degrees of doubt

mistrial9 4y ago
Jungian here - with some small comparative religion training.. multiple primary "motiff" in the Christian stories are repeats of older themes but changed.. for the non-Bible side, lots of Germanic and Scandinavian folk stories have been rewritten as Christian-themes too
elcritch 4y ago
Christianity does largely embrace the previous revelations still, even if they don’t follow most of the regulations. Listen to any AM radio station preacher and you’re bound to hear about the 10 commandments, the psalms, etc. They have various degrees of reinterpretation but the original content is still widely used and promoted. In contrast Islam seems to only tangentially refer to the Tanakh or the New Testament and reading them is not encouraged AFAICT. Islam did however borrow many practices from both. I’d argue that in some ways Rabbinical Judaism is as divergent as Christianity from ancient Judaism in many ways. There’s no following of the temple sacrifices or rites, etc, so new traditions have been added. The central role of Israel as a physical country changed for many (much early Zionism was viewed dimly by religious Jews and primarily embraced by secular Jews). The Talmud is roughly in a similar position as the New Testament, etc. I say that as an academic exercise in parallels and not to demean the differences or history. I just find the thought exercise intriguing.
- 4y ago

selimthegrim 4y ago

Waraqa bin Naufal, a Christian hermit who influenced Mohammad, is in certain conspiracy theories taken to have a great role in the origin of Islam.