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“Traduttore, traditore” (“translator, you traitor!”). Translating ancient texts is hard enough given the complex historical and cultural contexts. When it come

“Traduttore, traditore” (“translator, you traitor!”). Translating ancient texts is hard enough given the complex historical and cultural contexts. When it comes to religious texts, though, the level of complexity grows exponentially, especially given how their contexts widen. On an unrelated note, this always vexes me: > By contrast, the two faiths’ cousin—Christianity I get how one can see a relation between Judaism and Christianity. But to add Islam to the mix under the generic label of “Abrahamic religions” seems to be way too much of a stretch, as there’s neither historical nor philosophical continuity. It’s like saying that everyone who’s heard of the Trojan horse story and perhaps related it to their circle is automatically a member of a “Homeric culture”.

rippercushions 4y ago
It's not a stretch at all. In the same way that the New Testament (Christianity) extends the Old Testament (Judaism), the Koran considers itself a part of the same lineage. Moses, Jesus etc are prophets in Islam, and Jews and Christians are "people of the book" and accorded special protections.
- akiselev 4y ago
  Abraham is considered the first prophet in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam hence Abrahamic.
  - MonkeyClub 4y ago
    Technically speaking, in Judaism and Christianity Abraham is not a prophet (which is a very specific term), he’s instead a patriarch. And in terms of being the first, that’d be Adam.
    - edflsafoiewq 4y ago
      Abraham is called a prophet by God ("therefore restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet").
arp242 4y ago
Islam is generally considered an Abrahamic religion. There is a lot of continuity; the (very very) short version of the Islam perspective is "Abraham explained God's will to us, then Jesus was sent by God to explain God's will better, and then finally God sent Mohammed and he communicated God's will perfectly". Three time's the charm I guess? Many of the figures you know from the Bible make their appearance in the Quran as well, including Abraham of course (hence: Abrahamic religion).
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  Yep, I know that, but it doesn’t offer anything else than a claim to authenticity, by posing as a continuation, while the previous revelations are then discarded. The mentions of Biblical persons and events, as I hinted in the previous comment, are cultural rather than theological, and can’t be used to establish theological continuity, no matter how hard the Ismaelite genealogy is pressed.
  - icemelt8 4y ago
    entire islamic theology is based on Abraham and his actions, the rituals in the holy journey of Hajj and Umrah are all repeats of actions of Abraham and his family.
    - MonkeyClub 4y ago
      Yep it’s a very narrow focus on one person, and disregards the millennium of Judaic and Christian traditions that followed on from Abraham. In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified.
      - sofixa 4y ago
        > In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified. They all share the same god and the same origin story, and even share religious sites. Compare them to any other religion, and they are quite close.
antihipocrat 4y ago
The Koran literally begins by explaining how it is related to the other two religions that preceded it, and how it is also historically contiguous with them.
- shakna 4y ago
  So does "The Divine Authority of Holy Scripture Asserted" by self-professed Messiah, John Miller. There are plenty of cults that spring out of every major religion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that relationship is anything more than tenuous. This isn't a statement on Islam - depending how you examine certain things and weigh them, it could be either Abrahamic or maybe a little bit more distant. But you need to make a judgement call.
  - messe 4y ago
    > There are plenty of cults that spring out of every major religion Where do you draw the line?
    - shakna 4y ago
      Generally speaking, size and widespread acceptance. The use of the word "cult" there, isn't an insult. It just speaks to the smaller breakoff groups that form. Protestantism began as a cult. It is no longer. Sort of like how creeks spring from every river.
      - lolinder 4y ago
        Given that this is a conversation about Islam, this whole subthread seems like a distraction. By any metric of "size and widespread acceptance", Islam is a major religion whose claims should be treated as seriously as any other (which doesn't necessarily mean they should be taken at face value).
        shakna 4y ago
        Yes, it is a major religion... But if it came from the other religions, it began as a cult. As all religions do. Abraham's story, the origin of his religion, began as a cult. And that's the way I used the term in my paragraph that began this subthread. The focus on the word "cult" is a distraction. The concentration is on whether two religions should really be considered part and parcel, when they have diverging core theology, diverging core tenants, and differing historical origins.
xwolfi 4y ago
There is: Mohammed met many christian travelers and decided it was a good idea to unify people. The stories are the same, the people are closer than Italians and Israelis, and saying Christianity is Abrahamic because Rome killed a guy who reneged most of jewish literal intepretation then elevated him as a divine figure is just as silly...
verbify 4y ago
I think Judaism and Islam have more in common with each other than with Christianity. Christianity's belief in the divinity of Jesus is shared by neither other religion. The Jewish jurist Maimonides ruled that Christians were idol worshipers because of their belief in the trinity and Muslims were not (Menachem Meiri rules otherwise). But more than that, in terms of practice, Muslims and Jews share a great deal. Praying in a certain direction. Praying several times a day. Specific dietary requirements, including banning pork. And Jewish and Islamic thinkers were in constant dialogue, I'm not sure why anyone could say there's no philosophical continuity.
- User23 4y ago
  > Muslims and Jews share a great deal. Praying in a certain direction. Praying several times a day. Specific dietary requirements, including banning pork. Christian churches face the East. Christian clerics and devout laypersons pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily. Finally many Christians observe religious dietary requirements involving fasting and abstinence from meat.
  - verbify 4y ago
    > Christian churches face the East I should have been more specific, it's about praying to a specific place. Jews face the western wall in Jerusalem, Muslims face Mecca. And they do this in or out of the synagogue (or mosque as far as I know). I've seen people get out a compass! > Christian clerics and devout laypersons pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily. This might be more analogous, but the "devout laypeople" seems less analogous, as it's got the status of a commandment in Judaism and Islam. > Finally many Christians observe religious dietary requirements involving fasting and abstinence from meat. In this Christianity really differs from Judaism and Islam. I'm talking about ritual slaughter and avoiding eating specific animals, not general periods of abstinence from meat. All in all obviously Judaism and Christianity share a lot too, I'm just suspicious of the claim that they shares more with each other than Islam when my experience is not like that at all.
    - llimos 4y ago
cdogl 4y ago
Islam incorporates Jesus, Moses and Abraham. The continuity is direct, both historically and theologically. The histories of Christianity and Islam are wrapped up in one another. After all, the Arab conquests took what europe called the “near east”, which had previously been Hellenized and Romanized. Whatever perceived gulf lies between Islam and Christendom politically, I don’t think the history bears it out.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  > The continuity is direct, both historically and theologically. Theological continuity would mean that Islam accepts and extends, ie that Jesus is the anticipated Messiah subsequently crucified and risen, not to mention accepting Jesus as the son of God and final prophet. I have yet to find any Islamic faction that holds that to be true :)
  - whiteandnerdy 4y ago
    I think you're setting an unreasonably high bar. Christianity has a high degree of continuity with Judaism, but rejects important aspects of Jewish theology, such as Kosher and Sabbath-keeping. So while Christianity accepts large amounts of Jewish theology, and extends new ideas, it doesn't universally accept everything that came before it. Similarly, Islam accepts large amounts of Christian theology (and indeed reintroduces some Jewish practice) and brings new beliefs with it, but doesn't bring every tenet along. Admittedly Jesus' divinity is a very big part of Christianity to reject; but then, the idea of the trinity would be an equally big pill to swallow for a Jew ("hear, O Israel: the LORD your God is one").
    - pulse7 4y ago
      First Christians were Jews which kept the Sabbath and didn't eat unclean meat (even Jesus kept the Sabbath). Then later Christians changed many practices and diverged from the first teachings. During Reformation attempts were made to come back to original Christianity. Seventh-day Adventists for example keep the Sabbath holy and don't eat unclean meat - just like Jesus did! And there are also some other, smaller denominations which also keep the Sabbath holy - like Seventh-Day Baptists.
EB-Barrington 4y ago
[dead]
lolinder 4y ago
No one calls Islam a "Judaic" religion or a "Christian" religion, they call it an "Abrahamic" religion. That implies nothing more than a shared relationship to Abraham. How far they diverge theologically from that point is irrelevant to the question of whether they can all be considered Abrahamic. Also, as far as the differences go, this comment shows a stark lack of understanding of world religions in general. For all the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity, their similarities are glaringly obvious when placed alongside Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Shinto, or any of the other religions of the world. "Abrahamic religions" is a very useful grouping for religious studies, serving much the same role as the "Romance languages" in linguistics. When you look at the full scope of what is possible in religion, the Abrahamic religions have more in common than they do differences.
User23 4y ago
> I get how one can see a relation between Judaism and Christianity. That relation exists but it’s vastly overstated by many people today. Christianity and Talmudic Judaism are both in some sense successors to the old Hebrew religion that the Romans ended by destroying the Temple, but they draw very little from each other. In fact the direct predecessors of today’s rabbis, the Pharisees, are already portrayed in a less than flattering light in the New Testament. Islam on the other hand positions itself as the successor faith to both Judaism and Christianity. And frankly, nowadays, I’d say that’s the closest relation those two faiths have.

rippercushions 4y ago

It's not a stretch at all. In the same way that the New Testament (Christianity) extends the Old Testament (Judaism), the Koran considers itself a part of the same lineage. Moses, Jesus etc are prophets in Islam, and Jews and Christians are "people of the book" and accorded special protections.

akiselev 4y ago
Abraham is considered the first prophet in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam hence Abrahamic.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  Technically speaking, in Judaism and Christianity Abraham is not a prophet (which is a very specific term), he’s instead a patriarch. And in terms of being the first, that’d be Adam.
  - edflsafoiewq 4y ago
    Abraham is called a prophet by God ("therefore restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet").

arp242 4y ago

Islam is generally considered an Abrahamic religion. There is a lot of continuity; the (very very) short version of the Islam perspective is "Abraham explained God's will to us, then Jesus was sent by God to explain God's will better, and then finally God sent Mohammed and he communicated God's will perfectly". Three time's the charm I guess? Many of the figures you know from the Bible make their appearance in the Quran as well, including Abraham of course (hence: Abrahamic religion).

MonkeyClub 4y ago
Yep, I know that, but it doesn’t offer anything else than a claim to authenticity, by posing as a continuation, while the previous revelations are then discarded. The mentions of Biblical persons and events, as I hinted in the previous comment, are cultural rather than theological, and can’t be used to establish theological continuity, no matter how hard the Ismaelite genealogy is pressed.
- icemelt8 4y ago
  entire islamic theology is based on Abraham and his actions, the rituals in the holy journey of Hajj and Umrah are all repeats of actions of Abraham and his family.
  - MonkeyClub 4y ago
    Yep it’s a very narrow focus on one person, and disregards the millennium of Judaic and Christian traditions that followed on from Abraham. In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      > In general, to my ears “Abrahamic religions” is a forced academic classification, and doesn’t point to any actual spiritual kinship shared between the religions thus classified. They all share the same god and the same origin story, and even share religious sites. Compare them to any other religion, and they are quite close.

antihipocrat 4y ago

The Koran literally begins by explaining how it is related to the other two religions that preceded it, and how it is also historically contiguous with them.

shakna 4y ago
So does "The Divine Authority of Holy Scripture Asserted" by self-professed Messiah, John Miller. There are plenty of cults that spring out of every major religion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that relationship is anything more than tenuous. This isn't a statement on Islam - depending how you examine certain things and weigh them, it could be either Abrahamic or maybe a little bit more distant. But you need to make a judgement call.
- messe 4y ago
  > There are plenty of cults that spring out of every major religion Where do you draw the line?
  - shakna 4y ago
    Generally speaking, size and widespread acceptance. The use of the word "cult" there, isn't an insult. It just speaks to the smaller breakoff groups that form. Protestantism began as a cult. It is no longer. Sort of like how creeks spring from every river.
    - lolinder 4y ago
      Given that this is a conversation about Islam, this whole subthread seems like a distraction. By any metric of "size and widespread acceptance", Islam is a major religion whose claims should be treated as seriously as any other (which doesn't necessarily mean they should be taken at face value).
      - shakna 4y ago
        Yes, it is a major religion... But if it came from the other religions, it began as a cult. As all religions do. Abraham's story, the origin of his religion, began as a cult. And that's the way I used the term in my paragraph that began this subthread. The focus on the word "cult" is a distraction. The concentration is on whether two religions should really be considered part and parcel, when they have diverging core theology, diverging core tenants, and differing historical origins.

xwolfi 4y ago

There is: Mohammed met many christian travelers and decided it was a good idea to unify people. The stories are the same, the people are closer than Italians and Israelis, and saying Christianity is Abrahamic because Rome killed a guy who reneged most of jewish literal intepretation then elevated him as a divine figure is just as silly...

verbify 4y ago

I think Judaism and Islam have more in common with each other than with Christianity. Christianity's belief in the divinity of Jesus is shared by neither other religion. The Jewish jurist Maimonides ruled that Christians were idol worshipers because of their belief in the trinity and Muslims were not (Menachem Meiri rules otherwise). But more than that, in terms of practice, Muslims and Jews share a great deal. Praying in a certain direction. Praying several times a day. Specific dietary requirements, including banning pork. And Jewish and Islamic thinkers were in constant dialogue, I'm not sure why anyone could say there's no philosophical continuity.

User23 4y ago
> Muslims and Jews share a great deal. Praying in a certain direction. Praying several times a day. Specific dietary requirements, including banning pork. Christian churches face the East. Christian clerics and devout laypersons pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily. Finally many Christians observe religious dietary requirements involving fasting and abstinence from meat.
- verbify 4y ago
  > Christian churches face the East I should have been more specific, it's about praying to a specific place. Jews face the western wall in Jerusalem, Muslims face Mecca. And they do this in or out of the synagogue (or mosque as far as I know). I've seen people get out a compass! > Christian clerics and devout laypersons pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily. This might be more analogous, but the "devout laypeople" seems less analogous, as it's got the status of a commandment in Judaism and Islam. > Finally many Christians observe religious dietary requirements involving fasting and abstinence from meat. In this Christianity really differs from Judaism and Islam. I'm talking about ritual slaughter and avoiding eating specific animals, not general periods of abstinence from meat. All in all obviously Judaism and Christianity share a lot too, I'm just suspicious of the claim that they shares more with each other than Islam when my experience is not like that at all.
  - llimos 4y ago

cdogl 4y ago

Islam incorporates Jesus, Moses and Abraham. The continuity is direct, both historically and theologically. The histories of Christianity and Islam are wrapped up in one another. After all, the Arab conquests took what europe called the “near east”, which had previously been Hellenized and Romanized. Whatever perceived gulf lies between Islam and Christendom politically, I don’t think the history bears it out.

MonkeyClub 4y ago
> The continuity is direct, both historically and theologically. Theological continuity would mean that Islam accepts and extends, ie that Jesus is the anticipated Messiah subsequently crucified and risen, not to mention accepting Jesus as the son of God and final prophet. I have yet to find any Islamic faction that holds that to be true :)
- whiteandnerdy 4y ago
  I think you're setting an unreasonably high bar. Christianity has a high degree of continuity with Judaism, but rejects important aspects of Jewish theology, such as Kosher and Sabbath-keeping. So while Christianity accepts large amounts of Jewish theology, and extends new ideas, it doesn't universally accept everything that came before it. Similarly, Islam accepts large amounts of Christian theology (and indeed reintroduces some Jewish practice) and brings new beliefs with it, but doesn't bring every tenet along. Admittedly Jesus' divinity is a very big part of Christianity to reject; but then, the idea of the trinity would be an equally big pill to swallow for a Jew ("hear, O Israel: the LORD your God is one").
  - pulse7 4y ago
    First Christians were Jews which kept the Sabbath and didn't eat unclean meat (even Jesus kept the Sabbath). Then later Christians changed many practices and diverged from the first teachings. During Reformation attempts were made to come back to original Christianity. Seventh-day Adventists for example keep the Sabbath holy and don't eat unclean meat - just like Jesus did! And there are also some other, smaller denominations which also keep the Sabbath holy - like Seventh-Day Baptists.

EB-Barrington 4y ago

[dead]

lolinder 4y ago

No one calls Islam a "Judaic" religion or a "Christian" religion, they call it an "Abrahamic" religion. That implies nothing more than a shared relationship to Abraham. How far they diverge theologically from that point is irrelevant to the question of whether they can all be considered Abrahamic. Also, as far as the differences go, this comment shows a stark lack of understanding of world religions in general. For all the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity, their similarities are glaringly obvious when placed alongside Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Shinto, or any of the other religions of the world. "Abrahamic religions" is a very useful grouping for religious studies, serving much the same role as the "Romance languages" in linguistics. When you look at the full scope of what is possible in religion, the Abrahamic religions have more in common than they do differences.

User23 4y ago

> I get how one can see a relation between Judaism and Christianity. That relation exists but it’s vastly overstated by many people today. Christianity and Talmudic Judaism are both in some sense successors to the old Hebrew religion that the Romans ended by destroying the Temple, but they draw very little from each other. In fact the direct predecessors of today’s rabbis, the Pharisees, are already portrayed in a less than flattering light in the New Testament. Islam on the other hand positions itself as the successor faith to both Judaism and Christianity. And frankly, nowadays, I’d say that’s the closest relation those two faiths have.