11 ms·

230 years since British pirates robbed the US of the metric system

30 points by NKosmatos 4y ago

DoesntMatter22 4y ago
As an American I think our measurement system is the best because of its name. Imperial. The fact that the US has dominated while on a totally different is pretty wild
- defrost 4y ago
  While the American system of measurement often is referred to as the Imperial System, this usage is erroneous. The US, ever since the formative years of the New World-nation, has used the *US Customary System*. The Imperial System, alternatively, was established in 1824 for Great Britain and its colonies. Even today, decades after officially switching to SI (metric) units, volume in the UK is measured in British Imperial units. ~ https://blog.ansi.org/2018/06/why-pint-bigger-in-uk-than-in-us-volume/ https://blog.ansi.org/2018/06/why-pint-bigger-in-uk-than-in-... For further fun, what year did the US Office of Weights and Measures adopt the metric system as the foundation for the Official National System and formally define the US foot in terms of the SI metric length?
- charlieyu1 4y ago
  I find it quite strange that the British don't use imperial units anymore.
  - was_a_dev 4y ago
    Not strange at all. Working in a metric system is beneficial to our economy, and trading out to the rest of the world. The options are to trade in Imperial measurements with the US, or the entire global economy in Metric. The US can weather that difference given its size both physically and economically
    - irdc 4y ago
      > trade in Imperial measurements with the US The US doesn't use the Imperial system but it's own customary system. For example, the Imperial pint is about 568 mL, whereas the US customary pint is about 473 mL (liquid pint) or about 551 mL (dry pint). Both are 1/8th of a gallon as defined in each respective system. (notice how I conveniently included the metric equivalent of both measurements?)
  - dogma1138 4y ago
    Eh? Have you seen the mess that is the British measurement system? Distances are in meters if they are short, miles if they are long, Leeds will be 275 miles away from your gas station that would charge you by the liter so would be most other liquids unless they are milk or beer, then you’ll get a mixtures of metric pipes with inch threads and inch pipes with metric threads, when you buy a property the land would be demarcated in acres, build up area in square feet and priced in meters squared… and when you over eat because of all the stress of having to memorize 1000 different measurement units your doctor would tell you that you gotta drop a few stones…
    - cameronh90 4y ago
      Things like threads sizes staying imperial makes sense to me. I believe they are now technically defined in mm, but obviously it's still based on fractions of an inch. In my view, there aren't any truly compelling reasons to switch from BSP to something based on natural metric measures. On the other hand, if we were to replace these pipe fittings with metric, we'd end up with a mixed system for realistically at least a century, if not a lot longer due to how long pipe systems last. The complexity (and also, in some cases, danger) of having to maintain both systems for so long would be incredible. It's similar to how in flying, we still use feet/flight levels, and actually a few places have migrated from metric to the more conventional imperial system. Imperial pipe fittings are pretty common across the entire world, in fact. I think most countries outside of UK/USA use BSP (often by a different name), but NPT is also sometimes used - and even BSP vs NPT is a huge pain.
      - dogma1138 4y ago
        The problem is that BSP only applies to a specific types of pipes, soft water piping like PEX, gas and other pipes are often a mishmash of thread standards as they are not covered by BSP. So in reality there already is a mixed system which is often what causes a lot of headaches, what’s worse is that BSP is also a mixed standard it has both metric and imperial measurements for its standard threads however when you mix fittings that were machines using metric and pipes that were machined with imperial I’ve found that because of slight tolerance differences you often can get into a point where stacked tolerances becomes and issue.
  - BerislavLopac 4y ago
    Oh they do, in everyday life: * Road distances are measured in miles. * Drinks are ordered in pints. * People measure height in feet/inches and weight in stones. But yes, pretty much everything else is metric.
    - beardyw 4y ago
      I have been measuring my weight in kilos for a long time. Height though, well that doesn't change so it has been pre-metric up to my recent age related shrinkage! I had to declare both my new height and weight on a form, so now I have a metric height!
  - perilunar 4y ago
    Why? They are not an empire anymore either.
mocopoco 4y ago
I find it more that a little amusing, that despite the US friendship with France, Websters idea of decolonising English was to alter the french derived words like 'centre'
- Amezarak 4y ago
  The article overstates Webster's influence. He did not invent those spellings (the article says they are "new versions of old words"), which predated him sometimes by centuries. He simply standardized them. English spelling at the time was very lax, and had been for centuries. You can find people spelling their own name inconsistently! The article cites color, center, and aluminum. Color is essentially etymologically correct - it comes from the Latin word color, by way of France, which did not spell it colour either. And the spelling in English is attested long before Webster. Here's an example from 1657. https://books.google.com/books?id=xAdmAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA3-PA3&dq=color&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjenLmvo9v8AhUYmWoFHSGPBIEQ6AF6BAgKEAI#v=onepage&q=color&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=xAdmAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA3-PA3&dq... Here's an example of "center" from 1704: https://books.google.com/books?id=GBcOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA282&dq=center&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN2--KpNv8AhUAnWoFHXVyBDoQ6AF6BAgFEAI#v=onepage&q=center&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=GBcOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA282&dq=c... And aluminum comes from the British Humphry Davy in 1812, not Webster! This is at least excusable, since aluminum was a newer spelling, as opposed to color and center, which had been in very common use for hundreds of years. It's very disappointing when journalists get easily verifiable historical facts wrong. FWIW, America' friendship with France was also rapidly cooling in the 1790s, as the article alludes to. By the Adams administration, it was positively anti-France.
elcritch 4y ago
Interesting backstory about the lost metric influence. The problem I have with Celsius is that it’s so clinical. “Man it was sunny day at 23.1” just doesn’t roll off the tongue like say it’s mid seventies today”.
- mopsi 4y ago
  Nobody uses decimals in these situations, and "it was almost 30 today" isn't that much different. Short and gets the point across.
- perilunar 4y ago
  We do the same in Celsius: mid to high twenties is a hot day. Over thirty is very hot. Low teens is cold. Zero is freezing (literally). Nobody every talks about the weather in fractions of a degree.
  - elcritch 4y ago
    Thanks, that's a good point. I've only used Celsius in technical situations, so it always felt technical. I wonder if that could be part of why Americans don't tend to dislike metric -- we associate it with technical work. Without a forcing function none of use grow up using it in common daily usage, sort of like how emotional words in second languages tend to not be as impactful. They just never match your first language's import.
radiator 4y ago
Such a long article, repeatedly praising the "simplicity" of the metric system, and it still ignores all possible opposing views. Not a word about the superiority of the duodecimal system when dividing quantities, even though a couple of examples are quoted (12 inches is a foot, 12 pence to the shilling). No effort to explain whyever someone would approach the matter in this way. The author is either extremely biased or extremely ignorant.
- spoils19 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - irdc 4y ago
    Ah yes, the global conspiracy to get people to...checks notes...occasionally use a pocket calculator. Very socialist indeed. A system merely suitable for the human scale will never enable you to reach beyond.
    - bliteben 4y ago
      Fractions are good for your brain and inherently more accurate.
      - wirrbel 4y ago
        A decimal value is just a form of approximate, decimal fractions. Also fractions of metric values should be even better for the brain, if stuff does not cancel out as easily. so if you want to make the argument that not using a calculator is inherently better, its even better to not use a calculator using the metric system.
  - wirrbel 4y ago
    Romans thought in base 10 (X,C,M) a bit strange to refer to them. But I would happily adopt a base 12 number system with base 12 units. Let’s say we use X for 10 and Ǝ for 11, 134 would be 1Ǝ, 24 hour clock a 20 (base 12) hour clock
gabrielsroka 4y ago
> French inch was then shorter than the British standard and Napoleon was around average height for the time. A) It's not shorter, it's longer, according to Wikipedia. B) even if it were, he'd be taller, not shorter.
troelsSteegin 4y ago
"Beyond Measure" [0], by James Vincent, is a good well researched read on the history of metrology. He doesn't mention the Dombey story. He does conclude [p. 265] that the ultimate reason that the imperial system stuck in the US and Great Britain (100 years after Dombey) was that these economies were dominant incumbents and didn't /need/ to change. Great Britain had metric and imperial in parallel. For the US, the switching cost was too high. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/07/beyond-measure-by-james-vincent-review-worth-its-weight-in-gold https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/07/beyond-measure...
notjulianjaynes 4y ago
Fun fact: The Massachusetts Department of Transportation briefly switched over to mandating the metric system for its engineering guides, then switched back in 2003. https://www.mass.gov/doc/use-of-the-english-system-of-measurements/download https://www.mass.gov/doc/use-of-the-english-system-of-measur...
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
After centuries of building, it may be too late to abandon Imperial units. E.g. How to replace that 5/16 nut on your old hay rake? Literally billions of things exist in Imperial units. It's commercially ridiculous to suggest that's going away. So then, either two systems (the worst outcome) or try to switch and your business fails. Btw its 'simpler' is such a dumb reason - simpler for whom? Why is decimal naturally any better than anything else?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

30 points by NKosmatos 4y ago

As an American I think our measurement system is the best because of its name. Imperial. The fact that the US has dominated while on a totally different is pretty wild

defrost 4y ago
While the American system of measurement often is referred to as the Imperial System, this usage is erroneous. The US, ever since the formative years of the New World-nation, has used the *US Customary System*. The Imperial System, alternatively, was established in 1824 for Great Britain and its colonies. Even today, decades after officially switching to SI (metric) units, volume in the UK is measured in British Imperial units. ~ https://blog.ansi.org/2018/06/why-pint-bigger-in-uk-than-in-us-volume/ https://blog.ansi.org/2018/06/why-pint-bigger-in-uk-than-in-... For further fun, what year did the US Office of Weights and Measures adopt the metric system as the foundation for the Official National System and formally define the US foot in terms of the SI metric length?
charlieyu1 4y ago
I find it quite strange that the British don't use imperial units anymore.
- was_a_dev 4y ago
  Not strange at all. Working in a metric system is beneficial to our economy, and trading out to the rest of the world. The options are to trade in Imperial measurements with the US, or the entire global economy in Metric. The US can weather that difference given its size both physically and economically
  - irdc 4y ago
    > trade in Imperial measurements with the US The US doesn't use the Imperial system but it's own customary system. For example, the Imperial pint is about 568 mL, whereas the US customary pint is about 473 mL (liquid pint) or about 551 mL (dry pint). Both are 1/8th of a gallon as defined in each respective system. (notice how I conveniently included the metric equivalent of both measurements?)
- dogma1138 4y ago
  Eh? Have you seen the mess that is the British measurement system? Distances are in meters if they are short, miles if they are long, Leeds will be 275 miles away from your gas station that would charge you by the liter so would be most other liquids unless they are milk or beer, then you’ll get a mixtures of metric pipes with inch threads and inch pipes with metric threads, when you buy a property the land would be demarcated in acres, build up area in square feet and priced in meters squared… and when you over eat because of all the stress of having to memorize 1000 different measurement units your doctor would tell you that you gotta drop a few stones…
  - cameronh90 4y ago
    Things like threads sizes staying imperial makes sense to me. I believe they are now technically defined in mm, but obviously it's still based on fractions of an inch. In my view, there aren't any truly compelling reasons to switch from BSP to something based on natural metric measures. On the other hand, if we were to replace these pipe fittings with metric, we'd end up with a mixed system for realistically at least a century, if not a lot longer due to how long pipe systems last. The complexity (and also, in some cases, danger) of having to maintain both systems for so long would be incredible. It's similar to how in flying, we still use feet/flight levels, and actually a few places have migrated from metric to the more conventional imperial system. Imperial pipe fittings are pretty common across the entire world, in fact. I think most countries outside of UK/USA use BSP (often by a different name), but NPT is also sometimes used - and even BSP vs NPT is a huge pain.
    - dogma1138 4y ago
      The problem is that BSP only applies to a specific types of pipes, soft water piping like PEX, gas and other pipes are often a mishmash of thread standards as they are not covered by BSP. So in reality there already is a mixed system which is often what causes a lot of headaches, what’s worse is that BSP is also a mixed standard it has both metric and imperial measurements for its standard threads however when you mix fittings that were machines using metric and pipes that were machined with imperial I’ve found that because of slight tolerance differences you often can get into a point where stacked tolerances becomes and issue.
- BerislavLopac 4y ago
  Oh they do, in everyday life: * Road distances are measured in miles. * Drinks are ordered in pints. * People measure height in feet/inches and weight in stones. But yes, pretty much everything else is metric.
  - beardyw 4y ago
    I have been measuring my weight in kilos for a long time. Height though, well that doesn't change so it has been pre-metric up to my recent age related shrinkage! I had to declare both my new height and weight on a form, so now I have a metric height!
- perilunar 4y ago
  Why? They are not an empire anymore either.

mocopoco 4y ago

I find it more that a little amusing, that despite the US friendship with France, Websters idea of decolonising English was to alter the french derived words like 'centre'

Amezarak 4y ago
The article overstates Webster's influence. He did not invent those spellings (the article says they are "new versions of old words"), which predated him sometimes by centuries. He simply standardized them. English spelling at the time was very lax, and had been for centuries. You can find people spelling their own name inconsistently! The article cites color, center, and aluminum. Color is essentially etymologically correct - it comes from the Latin word color, by way of France, which did not spell it colour either. And the spelling in English is attested long before Webster. Here's an example from 1657. https://books.google.com/books?id=xAdmAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA3-PA3&dq=color&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjenLmvo9v8AhUYmWoFHSGPBIEQ6AF6BAgKEAI#v=onepage&q=color&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=xAdmAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA3-PA3&dq... Here's an example of "center" from 1704: https://books.google.com/books?id=GBcOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA282&dq=center&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN2--KpNv8AhUAnWoFHXVyBDoQ6AF6BAgFEAI#v=onepage&q=center&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=GBcOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA282&dq=c... And aluminum comes from the British Humphry Davy in 1812, not Webster! This is at least excusable, since aluminum was a newer spelling, as opposed to color and center, which had been in very common use for hundreds of years. It's very disappointing when journalists get easily verifiable historical facts wrong. FWIW, America' friendship with France was also rapidly cooling in the 1790s, as the article alludes to. By the Adams administration, it was positively anti-France.

elcritch 4y ago

Interesting backstory about the lost metric influence. The problem I have with Celsius is that it’s so clinical. “Man it was sunny day at 23.1” just doesn’t roll off the tongue like say it’s mid seventies today”.

mopsi 4y ago
Nobody uses decimals in these situations, and "it was almost 30 today" isn't that much different. Short and gets the point across.
perilunar 4y ago
We do the same in Celsius: mid to high twenties is a hot day. Over thirty is very hot. Low teens is cold. Zero is freezing (literally). Nobody every talks about the weather in fractions of a degree.
- elcritch 4y ago
  Thanks, that's a good point. I've only used Celsius in technical situations, so it always felt technical. I wonder if that could be part of why Americans don't tend to dislike metric -- we associate it with technical work. Without a forcing function none of use grow up using it in common daily usage, sort of like how emotional words in second languages tend to not be as impactful. They just never match your first language's import.

radiator 4y ago

Such a long article, repeatedly praising the "simplicity" of the metric system, and it still ignores all possible opposing views. Not a word about the superiority of the duodecimal system when dividing quantities, even though a couple of examples are quoted (12 inches is a foot, 12 pence to the shilling). No effort to explain whyever someone would approach the matter in this way. The author is either extremely biased or extremely ignorant.

spoils19 4y ago
[flagged]
- irdc 4y ago
  Ah yes, the global conspiracy to get people to...checks notes...occasionally use a pocket calculator. Very socialist indeed. A system merely suitable for the human scale will never enable you to reach beyond.
  - bliteben 4y ago
    Fractions are good for your brain and inherently more accurate.
    - wirrbel 4y ago
      A decimal value is just a form of approximate, decimal fractions. Also fractions of metric values should be even better for the brain, if stuff does not cancel out as easily. so if you want to make the argument that not using a calculator is inherently better, its even better to not use a calculator using the metric system.
- wirrbel 4y ago
  Romans thought in base 10 (X,C,M) a bit strange to refer to them. But I would happily adopt a base 12 number system with base 12 units. Let’s say we use X for 10 and Ǝ for 11, 134 would be 1Ǝ, 24 hour clock a 20 (base 12) hour clock

gabrielsroka 4y ago

> French inch was then shorter than the British standard and Napoleon was around average height for the time. A) It's not shorter, it's longer, according to Wikipedia. B) even if it were, he'd be taller, not shorter.

troelsSteegin 4y ago

"Beyond Measure" [0], by James Vincent, is a good well researched read on the history of metrology. He doesn't mention the Dombey story. He does conclude [p. 265] that the ultimate reason that the imperial system stuck in the US and Great Britain (100 years after Dombey) was that these economies were dominant incumbents and didn't /need/ to change. Great Britain had metric and imperial in parallel. For the US, the switching cost was too high. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/07/beyond-measure-by-james-vincent-review-worth-its-weight-in-gold https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/07/beyond-measure...

notjulianjaynes 4y ago

Fun fact: The Massachusetts Department of Transportation briefly switched over to mandating the metric system for its engineering guides, then switched back in 2003. https://www.mass.gov/doc/use-of-the-english-system-of-measurements/download https://www.mass.gov/doc/use-of-the-english-system-of-measur...

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

After centuries of building, it may be too late to abandon Imperial units. E.g. How to replace that 5/16 nut on your old hay rake? Literally billions of things exist in Imperial units. It's commercially ridiculous to suggest that's going away. So then, either two systems (the worst outcome) or try to switch and your business fails. Btw its 'simpler' is such a dumb reason - simpler for whom? Why is decimal naturally any better than anything else?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]