4 ms·

> I guess we should allow it in the workplace Violence is the second most effective form of persuasion known to man, following shame. We do use violence in li

> I guess we should allow it in the workplace Violence is the second most effective form of persuasion known to man, following shame. We do use violence in limited fashion, around the world, today. In some societies, unmitigated violence was acceptable for a time. Why is it always curtailed? Unequivocally, murder is more effective at achieving settlement in many disputes. Expediency is not the only concern. Society is built on maintained relationships and mutual agreements, not wanton acts of passion to form networks that are more effective and stable than the individual. Children are not considered fully informed or stable. Shame is difficult to instill, when there is no preconceived notion of social acceptance. Violence is the natural fallback. Is picking up a child and moving them out of the way of a vehicle, when they don't want to be moved, violence? No. Violence isn't simply an action, but the act and intention and efficacy. Modern societies have balanced these concerns for adults and children. Self-defense and purposeful administrative allowances for violence (police, army) are the norm. The question of what the limits of perceived violence for children is optimal, is still debated.

tptacek 4y ago
This is written authoritatively but, to say the least, doesn't track developmental psychology science.
- Supermancho 4y ago
  > doesn't track developmental psychology science What does? citation obv
  - tptacek 4y ago
    A broad consensus that application of corporal punishment in children is positively correlated with aggression, poorer mental health outcomes, and domestic violence. A quick, preemptive edit: If you take the time to get the ranked list of journals in developmental psychology and then search for this question in those journals, you'll find the consensus gets significantly stronger. As you've already shown us, if you instead go the other direction, and find un-reviewed papers co-authored by professors at private Christian colleges, you can find counterexamples.
    - Supermancho 4y ago
      Since you're very busy replying to my posts with non-citations, let's go through some of additional ones, most of which cite the study by ET Gershoff. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-brain https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-br... - This study determines that spanking (as well as other stimuli, like observed violence) may influence behavior negatively. This is used as justification to determine that spanking is detrimental. The study does not expand this to corporal punishment overall, state sponsored or otherwise. https://sites01.lsu.edu/faculty/pfricklab/wp-content/uploads/sites/100/2015/11/JADP2006-corporal-punishment.pdf https://sites01.lsu.edu/faculty/pfricklab/wp-content/uploads... - This had 98 subjects recruited from two school systems in the southeastern United States. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/ - This is basically a narrative summary of some existing studies, leaning heavily on - * https://www.repeal43.org/docs/CP%20research%20US%20Nov%2012.pdf https://www.repeal43.org/docs/CP%20research%20US%20Nov%2012.... * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094178/pdf/nihms825783.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094178/pdf/nih... * https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261705604_The_effect_of_corporal_punishment_on_antisocial_behavior_in_children https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261705604_The_effec... Getting access to papers directly is often troublesome, so there may be an additional step of clicking on a link to get the PDF. 2/3 of these papers focus on effects of pre-school corporal punishment (ages 2-6) exclusively, which is hard to correlate to the topic but provides solid evidence that corporal punishment (without qualification) for infants correlates to behavioral problems. I would not agree that there is consensus nor is there conclusive data in regard to corporal punishment in schools (post-preschool). This is not an issue of convenience, but has large social implications. If you could provide something a bit more compelling, I'm open to it. I don't have a vested interest, other than a higher standard of proof, such that I can defend conclusive evidence.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        This is a strange response, because every single paper you've linked to supports my argument, directly.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Do you honestly put any stock in that stuff? We have had decades of research into child rearing and education in the west. If it was actually reliable, it should have produced better behaved kids that do better in school and have better outcomes. The absence of any evidence of that is glaring. The greatest generation that built this country into what it is were subject to corporal punishment. Today, Asian immigrants use corporal punishment and their kids vastly outperform the children of native born Americans. Maybe there is no correlation between those things, but that is much more concrete evidence than some papers in a psychology journal.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Yes, I do: parental corporal punishment is, unfortunately, most common in the families with with the worst outcomes. Asian American parents are among those least likely to employ corporal punishment. That's unsurprising to me; I have a generally favorable opinion of the parenting culture you're alluding to (even though I wouldn't have considered it for my own kids), and corporal punishment is (what's the right word?) stupid. As my sibling commenter notes, we have a neat little case study here, too: we allow corporal punishment in public schools in a minority of states. Overlay outcomes by school district; how's it working out?
  - vidarh 4y ago
    If violence was effective, we should have plenty of comparative proof from the US states where it's still allowed. We don't
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    As another poster said, multiple states have corporal punishment as not only allowed but encouraged, and so far we haven't seen the better outcomes you claim in terms of better behaved kids. So in the absence of any evidence that corporal punishment works, the obvious answer should be to not do it.
vidarh 4y ago
Violence is effective at getting immediate compliance. It is not effective at producing well adjusted people with a healthy attitude to violence, nor is it effective at producing lasting compliance. That you seek to compare abuse with saving a child from being hit by a vehicle is a astonishing. We recognises the necessity of physical contact that would sometimes be unlawful when that contact is necessary all the time, irrespective of age. This attempt at acting as if this has anything to do with children's age or development in order to allow it to be used to justify abuse of children that'd be a crime when carried out against adults fails in that basis: we know how to recognise the difference. Yet somehow we are told to accept violence against children we're not ourselves willing to be subjected to.
- Supermancho 4y ago
  > It is not effective at producing well adjusted people with a healthy attitude to violence, nor is it effective at producing lasting compliance. I don't know what "healthy attitude to violence" is when there's a disagreement by what "violence" means. So I'll have to await some clarification, other than simply sharing your unspecified views. Police carry weapons in modern societies across the globe. Claiming violence does not produce lasting compliance is an interesting belief that is not shared by the majority of the world, so I find this claim uncompelling. There are exceptions ofc, like Japan, where a large part of the peacekeeping force patrols without weapons. While it is effective at times, the lack of efficacy can also be seen on Youtube. > That you seek to compare abuse with saving a child from being hit by a vehicle is a astonishing I did not compare them directly. I illustrated the use of the term "violence" is overly broad, as unconsented forceful action is not unwarranted. The question is degree, intent, and efficacy, as stated. Please don't misrepresent my statements. You are imagining I meant "abuse", which is another broad term that is dishonestly equated to "corporal punishment" or "violence". I have trouble teasing out what you specifically trying to communicate, other than a strong disdain for corporal punishment without qualification.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    > Claiming violence does not produce lasting compliance is an interesting belief that is not shared by the majority of the world, so I find this claim uncompelling. It's a belief that is backed by the total absence of evidence of a lasting effect on compliance from the use of violence. That societies continue to condone the use of violence despite the total lack of anything to suggest it works speaks to the pathology of the political process, not to the efficacy of violence. There are situations where violence becomes necessary, such as self-defence or a defensive war, as a means to achieve short term compliance absent other alternatives, but anyone who believes in a beneficial long term effect on compliance is a fool.

tptacek 4y ago

This is written authoritatively but, to say the least, doesn't track developmental psychology science.

Supermancho 4y ago
> doesn't track developmental psychology science What does? citation obv
- tptacek 4y ago
  A broad consensus that application of corporal punishment in children is positively correlated with aggression, poorer mental health outcomes, and domestic violence. A quick, preemptive edit: If you take the time to get the ranked list of journals in developmental psychology and then search for this question in those journals, you'll find the consensus gets significantly stronger. As you've already shown us, if you instead go the other direction, and find un-reviewed papers co-authored by professors at private Christian colleges, you can find counterexamples.
  - Supermancho 4y ago
    Since you're very busy replying to my posts with non-citations, let's go through some of additional ones, most of which cite the study by ET Gershoff. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-brain https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-br... - This study determines that spanking (as well as other stimuli, like observed violence) may influence behavior negatively. This is used as justification to determine that spanking is detrimental. The study does not expand this to corporal punishment overall, state sponsored or otherwise. https://sites01.lsu.edu/faculty/pfricklab/wp-content/uploads/sites/100/2015/11/JADP2006-corporal-punishment.pdf https://sites01.lsu.edu/faculty/pfricklab/wp-content/uploads... - This had 98 subjects recruited from two school systems in the southeastern United States. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/ - This is basically a narrative summary of some existing studies, leaning heavily on - * https://www.repeal43.org/docs/CP%20research%20US%20Nov%2012.pdf https://www.repeal43.org/docs/CP%20research%20US%20Nov%2012.... * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094178/pdf/nihms825783.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094178/pdf/nih... * https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261705604_The_effect_of_corporal_punishment_on_antisocial_behavior_in_children https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261705604_The_effec... Getting access to papers directly is often troublesome, so there may be an additional step of clicking on a link to get the PDF. 2/3 of these papers focus on effects of pre-school corporal punishment (ages 2-6) exclusively, which is hard to correlate to the topic but provides solid evidence that corporal punishment (without qualification) for infants correlates to behavioral problems. I would not agree that there is consensus nor is there conclusive data in regard to corporal punishment in schools (post-preschool). This is not an issue of convenience, but has large social implications. If you could provide something a bit more compelling, I'm open to it. I don't have a vested interest, other than a higher standard of proof, such that I can defend conclusive evidence.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      This is a strange response, because every single paper you've linked to supports my argument, directly.
rayiner 4y ago
Do you honestly put any stock in that stuff? We have had decades of research into child rearing and education in the west. If it was actually reliable, it should have produced better behaved kids that do better in school and have better outcomes. The absence of any evidence of that is glaring. The greatest generation that built this country into what it is were subject to corporal punishment. Today, Asian immigrants use corporal punishment and their kids vastly outperform the children of native born Americans. Maybe there is no correlation between those things, but that is much more concrete evidence than some papers in a psychology journal.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Yes, I do: parental corporal punishment is, unfortunately, most common in the families with with the worst outcomes. Asian American parents are among those least likely to employ corporal punishment. That's unsurprising to me; I have a generally favorable opinion of the parenting culture you're alluding to (even though I wouldn't have considered it for my own kids), and corporal punishment is (what's the right word?) stupid. As my sibling commenter notes, we have a neat little case study here, too: we allow corporal punishment in public schools in a minority of states. Overlay outcomes by school district; how's it working out?
- vidarh 4y ago
  If violence was effective, we should have plenty of comparative proof from the US states where it's still allowed. We don't
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  As another poster said, multiple states have corporal punishment as not only allowed but encouraged, and so far we haven't seen the better outcomes you claim in terms of better behaved kids. So in the absence of any evidence that corporal punishment works, the obvious answer should be to not do it.

vidarh 4y ago

Violence is effective at getting immediate compliance. It is not effective at producing well adjusted people with a healthy attitude to violence, nor is it effective at producing lasting compliance. That you seek to compare abuse with saving a child from being hit by a vehicle is a astonishing. We recognises the necessity of physical contact that would sometimes be unlawful when that contact is necessary all the time, irrespective of age. This attempt at acting as if this has anything to do with children's age or development in order to allow it to be used to justify abuse of children that'd be a crime when carried out against adults fails in that basis: we know how to recognise the difference. Yet somehow we are told to accept violence against children we're not ourselves willing to be subjected to.

Supermancho 4y ago
> It is not effective at producing well adjusted people with a healthy attitude to violence, nor is it effective at producing lasting compliance. I don't know what "healthy attitude to violence" is when there's a disagreement by what "violence" means. So I'll have to await some clarification, other than simply sharing your unspecified views. Police carry weapons in modern societies across the globe. Claiming violence does not produce lasting compliance is an interesting belief that is not shared by the majority of the world, so I find this claim uncompelling. There are exceptions ofc, like Japan, where a large part of the peacekeeping force patrols without weapons. While it is effective at times, the lack of efficacy can also be seen on Youtube. > That you seek to compare abuse with saving a child from being hit by a vehicle is a astonishing I did not compare them directly. I illustrated the use of the term "violence" is overly broad, as unconsented forceful action is not unwarranted. The question is degree, intent, and efficacy, as stated. Please don't misrepresent my statements. You are imagining I meant "abuse", which is another broad term that is dishonestly equated to "corporal punishment" or "violence". I have trouble teasing out what you specifically trying to communicate, other than a strong disdain for corporal punishment without qualification.
- vidarh 4y ago
  > Claiming violence does not produce lasting compliance is an interesting belief that is not shared by the majority of the world, so I find this claim uncompelling. It's a belief that is backed by the total absence of evidence of a lasting effect on compliance from the use of violence. That societies continue to condone the use of violence despite the total lack of anything to suggest it works speaks to the pathology of the political process, not to the efficacy of violence. There are situations where violence becomes necessary, such as self-defence or a defensive war, as a means to achieve short term compliance absent other alternatives, but anyone who believes in a beneficial long term effect on compliance is a fool.