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> It’s an effective tool Said no modern, respectable scientist who has studied the phenomenon within the last thirty years.

Supermancho 4y ago
> Said no modern, respectable scientist who has studied the phenomenon within the last thirty years. ...said some guy on a forum. From 2006: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284596.pdf https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284596.pdf https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featured-in-spanking-stories/ https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featur... - "There is general consensus that corporal punishment is effective in getting children to comply immediately while at the same time there is caution from child abuse researchers that corporal punishment by its nature can escalate into physical maltreatment," - E. T. Gershoff The meta-analysis study that "decided things" in 2021: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34197808/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34197808/ A critique to that point in 2022: A Response to Heilmann et al.’s (2021) Narrative Review - https://psyarxiv.com/5xbnm/download?format=pdf https://psyarxiv.com/5xbnm/download?format=pdf Much like Abraham Wald pointed out in WWII, many studies are unintentionally magnifying the statistical outliers incorrectly. As Greg Wilson once said - (summarized) Gender inequity in science being biologically gender influenced is settled as false. The efficacy of corporal punishment is a scottish verdict. The efficacy and/or benefit of corporal punishment, is undecided.
- tptacek 4y ago
  The first link you provided, which does not appear to support corporal punishment, does not contain the string you quoted; in fact, the word "corporal" appears in it only twice. The last link you provided is a methodological critique of another study, and its authors are of questionable authority (for instance, a dev psych professor at a private Christian college).
  - Supermancho 4y ago
    > The first link you provided, which does not appear to support corporal punishment, does not contain the string you quoted; in fact, the word "corporal" appears in it only twice. Gershoff's contributions to the debate are not a singular paper. https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featured-in-spanking-stories/ https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featur... includes a response from Robert E. Larzelere, Ph.D., which quotes Gershoff as the source of the quote referenced.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      All I can tell you is that you provided a link that did not say what you said it did, and attributed to it a quotation that did not appear in the article.
      - Supermancho 4y ago
        I think you misinterpreted the post. I have made it more explicit.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I reloaded it and searched for the word "comply", which seems unlikely to have been a typo in your original quotation, and: no, that quotation is not present in the article.
- vidarh 4y ago
  Violence is also effective at getting immediate compliance from adults, so I guess we should allow it in the workplace. Or maybe, just maybe, go the other way and treat kids like people and avoid teaching them that abuse is normal.
  - Supermancho 4y ago
    > I guess we should allow it in the workplace Violence is the second most effective form of persuasion known to man, following shame. We do use violence in limited fashion, around the world, today. In some societies, unmitigated violence was acceptable for a time. Why is it always curtailed? Unequivocally, murder is more effective at achieving settlement in many disputes. Expediency is not the only concern. Society is built on maintained relationships and mutual agreements, not wanton acts of passion to form networks that are more effective and stable than the individual. Children are not considered fully informed or stable. Shame is difficult to instill, when there is no preconceived notion of social acceptance. Violence is the natural fallback. Is picking up a child and moving them out of the way of a vehicle, when they don't want to be moved, violence? No. Violence isn't simply an action, but the act and intention and efficacy. Modern societies have balanced these concerns for adults and children. Self-defense and purposeful administrative allowances for violence (police, army) are the norm. The question of what the limits of perceived violence for children is optimal, is still debated.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      This is written authoritatively but, to say the least, doesn't track developmental psychology science.
      - Supermancho 4y ago
        > doesn't track developmental psychology science What does? citation obv
        tptacek 4y ago
        A broad consensus that application of corporal punishment in children is positively correlated with aggression, poorer mental health outcomes, and domestic violence. A quick, preemptive edit: If you take the time to get the ranked list of journals in developmental psychology and then search for this question in those journals, you'll find the consensus gets significantly stronger. As you've already shown us, if you instead go the other direction, and find un-reviewed papers co-authored by professors at private Christian colleges, you can find counterexamples.
blagie 4y ago
> Said no modern, respectable, progressive, white, American scientist who has studied the phenomenon within the last thirty years. Fixed it for you. Here's the basic problem: - Most punishments for kids outside of mainstream cultural norms are harmful - Most punishments in anger are harmful Living within that context, I don't use corporal punishment, and I think it would be harmful to my child. However, I am not at all ready to generalize the results to outside of that context. Another way I'd frame it: The research evidence is at the level where I'm glad to call it a best practice (which I follow), and encourage others to do so. It's not yet at the level where I'm ready to judge people -- especially in other cultures -- who don't.
- memling 4y ago
  I worked with an older african american many years ago who in his own words grew up in the ghetto. He told me once that, "If we don't beat our kids at home the cops will do it in the street." Not advocating either way, but the perspective stuck with me.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > I wotked with an older african american many years ago who in his own words grew up in the ghetto. He told me once that, "If we don't beat our kids at home the cops will do it in the street." I suspect a thorough investigation of the African Americans beaten in the streets by cops would find that being beaten by their parents as a child is not substantial protection against being beaten in the streets by cops. Its a convenient rationalization, though.
    - blagie 4y ago
      I would like to see a thorough investigation BY African Americans rather than merely OF by African Americans. We have an unfortunate history where investigations OF African Americans BY white Americans led to not only incorrect but also very unfortunate conclusions.
    - memling 4y ago
      Entirely possible. I don't know that he was rationalizing as much as passing on accepted wisdom. Undoubtedly escaping depends on more than one variable.

Supermancho 4y ago

> Said no modern, respectable scientist who has studied the phenomenon within the last thirty years. ...said some guy on a forum. From 2006: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284596.pdf https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284596.pdf https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featured-in-spanking-stories/ https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featur... - "There is general consensus that corporal punishment is effective in getting children to comply immediately while at the same time there is caution from child abuse researchers that corporal punishment by its nature can escalate into physical maltreatment," - E. T. Gershoff The meta-analysis study that "decided things" in 2021: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34197808/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34197808/ A critique to that point in 2022: A Response to Heilmann et al.’s (2021) Narrative Review - https://psyarxiv.com/5xbnm/download?format=pdf https://psyarxiv.com/5xbnm/download?format=pdf Much like Abraham Wald pointed out in WWII, many studies are unintentionally magnifying the statistical outliers incorrectly. As Greg Wilson once said - (summarized) Gender inequity in science being biologically gender influenced is settled as false. The efficacy of corporal punishment is a scottish verdict. The efficacy and/or benefit of corporal punishment, is undecided.

tptacek 4y ago
The first link you provided, which does not appear to support corporal punishment, does not contain the string you quoted; in fact, the word "corporal" appears in it only twice. The last link you provided is a methodological critique of another study, and its authors are of questionable authority (for instance, a dev psych professor at a private Christian college).
- Supermancho 4y ago
  > The first link you provided, which does not appear to support corporal punishment, does not contain the string you quoted; in fact, the word "corporal" appears in it only twice. Gershoff's contributions to the debate are not a singular paper. https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featured-in-spanking-stories/ https://www.unmc.edu/newsroom/2002/06/28/dr-larzelere-featur... includes a response from Robert E. Larzelere, Ph.D., which quotes Gershoff as the source of the quote referenced.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    All I can tell you is that you provided a link that did not say what you said it did, and attributed to it a quotation that did not appear in the article.
    - Supermancho 4y ago
      I think you misinterpreted the post. I have made it more explicit.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        I reloaded it and searched for the word "comply", which seems unlikely to have been a typo in your original quotation, and: no, that quotation is not present in the article.
vidarh 4y ago
Violence is also effective at getting immediate compliance from adults, so I guess we should allow it in the workplace. Or maybe, just maybe, go the other way and treat kids like people and avoid teaching them that abuse is normal.
- Supermancho 4y ago
  > I guess we should allow it in the workplace Violence is the second most effective form of persuasion known to man, following shame. We do use violence in limited fashion, around the world, today. In some societies, unmitigated violence was acceptable for a time. Why is it always curtailed? Unequivocally, murder is more effective at achieving settlement in many disputes. Expediency is not the only concern. Society is built on maintained relationships and mutual agreements, not wanton acts of passion to form networks that are more effective and stable than the individual. Children are not considered fully informed or stable. Shame is difficult to instill, when there is no preconceived notion of social acceptance. Violence is the natural fallback. Is picking up a child and moving them out of the way of a vehicle, when they don't want to be moved, violence? No. Violence isn't simply an action, but the act and intention and efficacy. Modern societies have balanced these concerns for adults and children. Self-defense and purposeful administrative allowances for violence (police, army) are the norm. The question of what the limits of perceived violence for children is optimal, is still debated.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    This is written authoritatively but, to say the least, doesn't track developmental psychology science.
    - Supermancho 4y ago
      > doesn't track developmental psychology science What does? citation obv
      - tptacek 4y ago
        A broad consensus that application of corporal punishment in children is positively correlated with aggression, poorer mental health outcomes, and domestic violence. A quick, preemptive edit: If you take the time to get the ranked list of journals in developmental psychology and then search for this question in those journals, you'll find the consensus gets significantly stronger. As you've already shown us, if you instead go the other direction, and find un-reviewed papers co-authored by professors at private Christian colleges, you can find counterexamples.

blagie 4y ago

> Said no modern, respectable, progressive, white, American scientist who has studied the phenomenon within the last thirty years. Fixed it for you. Here's the basic problem: - Most punishments for kids outside of mainstream cultural norms are harmful - Most punishments in anger are harmful Living within that context, I don't use corporal punishment, and I think it would be harmful to my child. However, I am not at all ready to generalize the results to outside of that context. Another way I'd frame it: The research evidence is at the level where I'm glad to call it a best practice (which I follow), and encourage others to do so. It's not yet at the level where I'm ready to judge people -- especially in other cultures -- who don't.

memling 4y ago
I worked with an older african american many years ago who in his own words grew up in the ghetto. He told me once that, "If we don't beat our kids at home the cops will do it in the street." Not advocating either way, but the perspective stuck with me.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > I wotked with an older african american many years ago who in his own words grew up in the ghetto. He told me once that, "If we don't beat our kids at home the cops will do it in the street." I suspect a thorough investigation of the African Americans beaten in the streets by cops would find that being beaten by their parents as a child is not substantial protection against being beaten in the streets by cops. Its a convenient rationalization, though.
  - blagie 4y ago
    I would like to see a thorough investigation BY African Americans rather than merely OF by African Americans. We have an unfortunate history where investigations OF African Americans BY white Americans led to not only incorrect but also very unfortunate conclusions.
  - memling 4y ago
    Entirely possible. I don't know that he was rationalizing as much as passing on accepted wisdom. Undoubtedly escaping depends on more than one variable.