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Just posted and already people who don't really understand AVs are comparing Apples to Oranges (this to Waymo/Cruise) and Oranges to plastic Oranges meant for a

Just posted and already people who don't really understand AVs are comparing Apples to Oranges (this to Waymo/Cruise) and Oranges to plastic Oranges meant for a doll house (Tesla) Waymo, Cruise and co are working with sensor stacks worth more than these vehicles with the idea that their vehicles will first be used for ridesharing. That already precludes most comparisons: it's a completely different model with completely different challenges. Meanwhile Tesla does not have a single product that allows you to do other things without liability. Their product is downright primitive compared to what Mercedes is shipping with this. When a Tesla murdered a man by slamming him into a highway barrier, the fact his phone had run Candy Crush at some point during the drive was dragged out against him. - Maybe people are misunderstanding because Mercedes says you need to be awake and able to take over? They don't mean Tesla's joke steering jiggle to indicate you're watching the road: they literally mean you only need to be awake and able to take over in 10 seconds. Other than that you can be checking your email, playing Candy Crush, even whip out your laptop and code. This is the first time you can legally use your time in traffic for something other than driving. If 30 minutes of your 60 minute commute are in rush hour traffic, you can now spend 30 minutes doing something else. (Also for those who won't read the article, Mercedes has a separate lane keeping product that activates above 40 mph, the distinction is that below 40 mph, Mercedes is taking full responsibility of the vehicle's actions and letting you take your eyes off the road)

cogman10 4y ago
> When a Tesla murdered a man by slamming him into a highway barrier, the fact his phone had run Candy Crush at some point during the drive was dragged out against him. Look, I know this is a trope that people like to bring up a lot when hating on tesla. However, you have to consider a two points. * This happened in 2019, 4 years ago. Quiet a bit of development has gone into telsa's autopilot stack since then. * The car was going 70MPH. Mercedes's system only works up to 40MPH. For good reason. A telsa keeping the lane at 40MPH is fairly safe. These are not "miles ahead" systems, they are comparable. Now, what I'm not saying is whether one system is better/safer than the other. IDK because mercedes hasn't released their yet (I suspect you don't either). Mercedes being the "first" to apply for this in NV doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. The fact that they are limiting it to low speeds (40MPH) where a wreck will pretty much just be a fender bender should also tell you something about how confident they are in the system. Tesla has been reckless with the way they've managed their autopilot program. No doubt about that. They've also lied about being able to turn their cars into robotaxis (not a chance of that happening). However, their system is fairly comparable to what Mercedes is doing. Looking at the hardware Mercades is putting in the cars, the main difference is the forward facing LIDAR. That gives Merc an edge that telsa doesn't have, they can pretty confidently handle things like underpasses (where telsa STILL struggles and is a major issue with their hardware stack). My main critique of tesla is their hardware stack and dogged approach here to keeping it cheap (not enough redundancy, poor cameras). But that doesn't mean it's not still in a pretty similar league compared to merc.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  I'm mostly going to ignore the half of this comment where you downplay the fact that Tesla's Autopilot killed a man in large part because of design flaws that have actually worsened since then (they doubled down on camera only, they've kicked and dragged every step of the way on attention tracking https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-driver-monitoring-fails-to-keep-driver-focus-on-road-a3964813328/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-driver-moni... they're expanding the domain they claim their self-driving capabilities operate in with FSD to some of the most dangerous roads possible, with pedestrians and complex situations being infinitely more common than on highways) - As someone who works at an AV company and semi-regularly takes driverless rides, Mercedes is entirely miles and miles ahead of Tesla here because they're taking responsibility. If you're not familiar with AVs it doesn't immediately jump out at you, but again, even for a lay person surely you realize that the fact that Mercedes is letting you do whatever you want as long as you stay awake and able to take over in 10 seconds is a quantum leap over anything Tesla has ever done. And 10 seconds is not a normal AP panicky disengagement, they are giving you 10 whole seconds to context switch and take over. So it's not even enough that AP not disengage below 40 mph, it'd also need to never disengage urgently. If Tesla tried to do that with AP, even limited to speeds of 40 mph, there would be absolute bedlam within a week. I've personally been rear ended by a Model 3 in slow moving traffic and while I was too angry about my car to let my inner AV geek ask exactly what configuration they had the vehicle in, but those are the kinds of mistakes Mercedes is essentially saying "we have solved" And I mean the irony you want to talk about "confidence in a system" and here Mercedes is saying you can look down and stare at your phone and if this thing crashes we'll be liable... Elon loves to almost say things like this then ensure Tesla blames the dead person. - This essentially boils down to you saying "Well Tesla hasn't made this quantum leap, but they totally could..." if you really think so go to TMC and make a simple poll: "Has AP ever made you react below 40 mph" Mercedes is handling moving over for emergency vehicles so you have that full 10 seconds to take back control, meanwhile AP still likes to panic disengage because of sunlight, or a bad update, or because the planets aren't aligned with your chakras on this particular day.
MereInterest 4y ago
> they literally mean you only need to be awake and able to take over in 10 seconds. When I hear that, I immediately think of this 2016 study[0]. A ten-second window is not a sufficient window to take control. At that point, you don’t have enough situational awareness to be at the level of a drunk driver, let alone to be a competent driver. Any system that expects inhuman levels of focus and context switching is not a well-designed system. [0] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1541931213601423 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/154193121360142...
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  Do you have a link where I can actually see the study? It must depend on the situation. And how drunk is their comparison line? And how long does that impairment last? All of that is needed to know the size of the problem. Maybe it's a really big deal. Or maybe someone reaches "this wouldn't have even counted as DUI in 1970" for a few seconds and it's fine.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

cogman10 4y ago

> When a Tesla murdered a man by slamming him into a highway barrier, the fact his phone had run Candy Crush at some point during the drive was dragged out against him. Look, I know this is a trope that people like to bring up a lot when hating on tesla. However, you have to consider a two points. * This happened in 2019, 4 years ago. Quiet a bit of development has gone into telsa's autopilot stack since then. * The car was going 70MPH. Mercedes's system only works up to 40MPH. For good reason. A telsa keeping the lane at 40MPH is fairly safe. These are not "miles ahead" systems, they are comparable. Now, what I'm not saying is whether one system is better/safer than the other. IDK because mercedes hasn't released their yet (I suspect you don't either). Mercedes being the "first" to apply for this in NV doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. The fact that they are limiting it to low speeds (40MPH) where a wreck will pretty much just be a fender bender should also tell you something about how confident they are in the system. Tesla has been reckless with the way they've managed their autopilot program. No doubt about that. They've also lied about being able to turn their cars into robotaxis (not a chance of that happening). However, their system is fairly comparable to what Mercedes is doing. Looking at the hardware Mercades is putting in the cars, the main difference is the forward facing LIDAR. That gives Merc an edge that telsa doesn't have, they can pretty confidently handle things like underpasses (where telsa STILL struggles and is a major issue with their hardware stack). My main critique of tesla is their hardware stack and dogged approach here to keeping it cheap (not enough redundancy, poor cameras). But that doesn't mean it's not still in a pretty similar league compared to merc.

BoorishBears 4y ago
I'm mostly going to ignore the half of this comment where you downplay the fact that Tesla's Autopilot killed a man in large part because of design flaws that have actually worsened since then (they doubled down on camera only, they've kicked and dragged every step of the way on attention tracking https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-driver-monitoring-fails-to-keep-driver-focus-on-road-a3964813328/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-driver-moni... they're expanding the domain they claim their self-driving capabilities operate in with FSD to some of the most dangerous roads possible, with pedestrians and complex situations being infinitely more common than on highways) - As someone who works at an AV company and semi-regularly takes driverless rides, Mercedes is entirely miles and miles ahead of Tesla here because they're taking responsibility. If you're not familiar with AVs it doesn't immediately jump out at you, but again, even for a lay person surely you realize that the fact that Mercedes is letting you do whatever you want as long as you stay awake and able to take over in 10 seconds is a quantum leap over anything Tesla has ever done. And 10 seconds is not a normal AP panicky disengagement, they are giving you 10 whole seconds to context switch and take over. So it's not even enough that AP not disengage below 40 mph, it'd also need to never disengage urgently. If Tesla tried to do that with AP, even limited to speeds of 40 mph, there would be absolute bedlam within a week. I've personally been rear ended by a Model 3 in slow moving traffic and while I was too angry about my car to let my inner AV geek ask exactly what configuration they had the vehicle in, but those are the kinds of mistakes Mercedes is essentially saying "we have solved" And I mean the irony you want to talk about "confidence in a system" and here Mercedes is saying you can look down and stare at your phone and if this thing crashes we'll be liable... Elon loves to almost say things like this then ensure Tesla blames the dead person. - This essentially boils down to you saying "Well Tesla hasn't made this quantum leap, but they totally could..." if you really think so go to TMC and make a simple poll: "Has AP ever made you react below 40 mph" Mercedes is handling moving over for emergency vehicles so you have that full 10 seconds to take back control, meanwhile AP still likes to panic disengage because of sunlight, or a bad update, or because the planets aren't aligned with your chakras on this particular day.

MereInterest 4y ago

> they literally mean you only need to be awake and able to take over in 10 seconds. When I hear that, I immediately think of this 2016 study[0]. A ten-second window is not a sufficient window to take control. At that point, you don’t have enough situational awareness to be at the level of a drunk driver, let alone to be a competent driver. Any system that expects inhuman levels of focus and context switching is not a well-designed system. [0] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1541931213601423 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/154193121360142...

Dylan16807 4y ago
Do you have a link where I can actually see the study? It must depend on the situation. And how drunk is their comparison line? And how long does that impairment last? All of that is needed to know the size of the problem. Maybe it's a really big deal. Or maybe someone reaches "this wouldn't have even counted as DUI in 1970" for a few seconds and it's fine.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]