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> Following a religion improves your daily actions Citation needed. Edit: the fact that this is being downvoted is hilarious. Religion is a helluva drug.

Juliate 4y ago
Counter examples also abound in history books. And day-to-day life. Edit: what OP may have wanted to say is that « following a religion is a make-believe that also makes you believe what you do is good ». Which is not much more reassuring either (but an apt « mise en abyme » observation of what religion without a sane self-criticism can become)
- nerdponx 4y ago
  Good non-religious people exist, and bad religious people exist. Religion might help a lot of people stay good or become better, but lack of religion is almost never a plausible cause for badness.
  - Juliate 4y ago
    Indeed. Religion or not is often not the issue. Self-criticism, humility, ability to take a step back on one's own belief system with its intrinsic limits and issues are. Which is often harder for fundamentalists, whatever their base is.
nindalf 4y ago
There’s no direct cause and effect between believing in a religion and living a longer, happier life. However, religious people are more likely to attend regular religious services, where they are likely to develop social connections. As social animals, social connections are great for our physical and mental well being. This is probably one of the factors that leads to religious people living longer, happier lives (Association of Religious Service Attendance With Mortality Among Women https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...) You got the citation you wanted?
- NickBusey 4y ago
  Nope. None of that says that they have “improved their daily actions” just because they joined a social club.
- wellanyway 4y ago
  This is a somewhat weak argument.
speed_spread 4y ago
Expect citations to come from religion user's manuals and promotional material. We need trusted reviews and real life long-term comparatives for religions.
wellanyway 4y ago
Amount of religious people on HN is very surprising to me. I expected engineering community to do better.
- elammett 4y ago
  Comments like this confirm the stereotype that engineers have a one-track mind. Imagine crapping on billions of people for believing something that they cannot prove, but that you also cannot disprove. How arrogant.
  - Carrok 4y ago
    Tell me you’ve never been beaten up on a schoolyard for admitting to being an atheist, without telling me… Does that sound like religion has helped these people “improve their daily actions”? For many of us “crapping” on religion is not some metaphorical concept, but a direct reaction to bullying, harassment, and otherwise disdainful treatment at the hands of the devout.
    - adolph 4y ago
      Comments are cheaper than therapy I suppose, but also less effective given the apparent level of projection.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    There's plenty of evidence against Abrahamic religions core sources. The followers simply ignore it.
    - cratermoon 4y ago
      What do you mean by core sources? Are you able to provide examples?
      - lostmsu 4y ago
        7000 old Earth and carbon dating.
Swizec 4y ago
A lot of things are religions if you squint hard enough. We humans believe all sorts of stuff without much explicit evidence that it is in fact true. For example: New-ish research is showing that some surgeries are no better than placebo. https://www.painscience.com/biblio/four-orthopedic-surgeries-no-better-than-placebo.html https://www.painscience.com/biblio/four-orthopedic-surgeries... Another fun example is that allergy drugs, which clinical trials have shown are effective in double-blind studies, are less effective if you watch an ad saying that drug is bad right before taking it. Nocebo effect. If you have a strong belief the drug works, it will work better. Placebo effect is strong even in drugs we know are not placebo. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/is-the-placebo-effect-for-real/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/is-the-placebo-effect-for-r... And then you have the whole field of management and business books. Very close to a sort of federated decentralized religion.
- unsupp0rted 4y ago
  The thing with some surgeries being no better than placebo is that this can be shown and behaviors can be adjusted. With religion, "god did it" and "god works in mysterious ways" is always the answer and behaviors can't be adjusted. Why do we do these needless surgeries? God works in mysterious ways.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    The “god did it” argument is weird anyway. If you truly follow that logic, then god gave us the scientific method and double-blind experiment so we can more effectively cary out their ideas. More importantly, we have evidence that believing something, anything, is really good for the human psyche. You can pull a meaning out of your arse tomorrow morning and that leads to better psychological outcomes than no meaning. Even something as simple as “I need to keep this potted plant alive” will work. Viktor Frankl’s work is a good intro to that topic.
galfarragem 4y ago
You underrate the value of belonging to a community. As an entrenched atheist (and by definition an atheist is also an individualist), by love, I attended mass most sundays for several years. I understood that I underrated the community part and that to belong I didn’t need to believe only respect. I didn’t convert (and most likely never will) but it softened my views.
- krapp 4y ago
  >by definition an atheist is an individualist. No? By definition an atheist doesn't believe in the supernatural or divinity. Nothing about that proscribes individualism, nor does community presuppose religion or "softening one's views" on the existence of the supernatural, as you have. Plenty of atheists are also social people who enjoy the benefits of community, while remaining perfectly comfortable in their skin.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
I’ve lived in areas where religion is prevalent. Plenty of unhappy people who feel trapped in religion due to peer pressure, but there are also plenty of people who seem to benefit greatly from the sense of belonging, structure, and order that their religion provides. The primary benefits seem to be the sense of belonging, support, purpose, and convenient explanations that difficult circumstances in their lives have a higher meaning. It’s not for me, probably not for a lot of people in this comment section, but it’s clear to me from my experience that a lot of people do derive significant benefit from their religion. If you can’t understand why that might be the case for other people, you might be projecting too much of your own personality and circumstances on to others.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Karellen 4y ago
It probably depends somewhat on the religion one follows. That said, I have always been fascinated by the fictional religion of Bokononism, which is centered around "Foma". Foma are beliefs that are acknowledged to be untrue, but which will make your life better if you believe them (or act as if you believed them) anyway. I find the metacognitive aspect intriguing.

Juliate 4y ago

Counter examples also abound in history books. And day-to-day life. Edit: what OP may have wanted to say is that « following a religion is a make-believe that also makes you believe what you do is good ». Which is not much more reassuring either (but an apt « mise en abyme » observation of what religion without a sane self-criticism can become)

nerdponx 4y ago
Good non-religious people exist, and bad religious people exist. Religion might help a lot of people stay good or become better, but lack of religion is almost never a plausible cause for badness.
- Juliate 4y ago
  Indeed. Religion or not is often not the issue. Self-criticism, humility, ability to take a step back on one's own belief system with its intrinsic limits and issues are. Which is often harder for fundamentalists, whatever their base is.

nindalf 4y ago

There’s no direct cause and effect between believing in a religion and living a longer, happier life. However, religious people are more likely to attend regular religious services, where they are likely to develop social connections. As social animals, social connections are great for our physical and mental well being. This is probably one of the factors that leads to religious people living longer, happier lives (Association of Religious Service Attendance With Mortality Among Women https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...) You got the citation you wanted?

NickBusey 4y ago
Nope. None of that says that they have “improved their daily actions” just because they joined a social club.
wellanyway 4y ago
This is a somewhat weak argument.

speed_spread 4y ago

Expect citations to come from religion user's manuals and promotional material. We need trusted reviews and real life long-term comparatives for religions.

wellanyway 4y ago

Amount of religious people on HN is very surprising to me. I expected engineering community to do better.

elammett 4y ago
Comments like this confirm the stereotype that engineers have a one-track mind. Imagine crapping on billions of people for believing something that they cannot prove, but that you also cannot disprove. How arrogant.
- Carrok 4y ago
  Tell me you’ve never been beaten up on a schoolyard for admitting to being an atheist, without telling me… Does that sound like religion has helped these people “improve their daily actions”? For many of us “crapping” on religion is not some metaphorical concept, but a direct reaction to bullying, harassment, and otherwise disdainful treatment at the hands of the devout.
  - adolph 4y ago
    Comments are cheaper than therapy I suppose, but also less effective given the apparent level of projection.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  There's plenty of evidence against Abrahamic religions core sources. The followers simply ignore it.
  - cratermoon 4y ago
    What do you mean by core sources? Are you able to provide examples?
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      7000 old Earth and carbon dating.

Swizec 4y ago

A lot of things are religions if you squint hard enough. We humans believe all sorts of stuff without much explicit evidence that it is in fact true. For example: New-ish research is showing that some surgeries are no better than placebo. https://www.painscience.com/biblio/four-orthopedic-surgeries-no-better-than-placebo.html https://www.painscience.com/biblio/four-orthopedic-surgeries... Another fun example is that allergy drugs, which clinical trials have shown are effective in double-blind studies, are less effective if you watch an ad saying that drug is bad right before taking it. Nocebo effect. If you have a strong belief the drug works, it will work better. Placebo effect is strong even in drugs we know are not placebo. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/is-the-placebo-effect-for-real/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/is-the-placebo-effect-for-r... And then you have the whole field of management and business books. Very close to a sort of federated decentralized religion.

unsupp0rted 4y ago
The thing with some surgeries being no better than placebo is that this can be shown and behaviors can be adjusted. With religion, "god did it" and "god works in mysterious ways" is always the answer and behaviors can't be adjusted. Why do we do these needless surgeries? God works in mysterious ways.
- Swizec 4y ago
  The “god did it” argument is weird anyway. If you truly follow that logic, then god gave us the scientific method and double-blind experiment so we can more effectively cary out their ideas. More importantly, we have evidence that believing something, anything, is really good for the human psyche. You can pull a meaning out of your arse tomorrow morning and that leads to better psychological outcomes than no meaning. Even something as simple as “I need to keep this potted plant alive” will work. Viktor Frankl’s work is a good intro to that topic.

galfarragem 4y ago

You underrate the value of belonging to a community. As an entrenched atheist (and by definition an atheist is also an individualist), by love, I attended mass most sundays for several years. I understood that I underrated the community part and that to belong I didn’t need to believe only respect. I didn’t convert (and most likely never will) but it softened my views.

krapp 4y ago
>by definition an atheist is an individualist. No? By definition an atheist doesn't believe in the supernatural or divinity. Nothing about that proscribes individualism, nor does community presuppose religion or "softening one's views" on the existence of the supernatural, as you have. Plenty of atheists are also social people who enjoy the benefits of community, while remaining perfectly comfortable in their skin.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

I’ve lived in areas where religion is prevalent. Plenty of unhappy people who feel trapped in religion due to peer pressure, but there are also plenty of people who seem to benefit greatly from the sense of belonging, structure, and order that their religion provides. The primary benefits seem to be the sense of belonging, support, purpose, and convenient explanations that difficult circumstances in their lives have a higher meaning. It’s not for me, probably not for a lot of people in this comment section, but it’s clear to me from my experience that a lot of people do derive significant benefit from their religion. If you can’t understand why that might be the case for other people, you might be projecting too much of your own personality and circumstances on to others.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Karellen 4y ago

It probably depends somewhat on the religion one follows. That said, I have always been fascinated by the fictional religion of Bokononism, which is centered around "Foma". Foma are beliefs that are acknowledged to be untrue, but which will make your life better if you believe them (or act as if you believed them) anyway. I find the metacognitive aspect intriguing.