6 ms·

Tech Workers Need a Union

18 points by headalgorithm 4y ago

ryandrake 4y ago
> And for no reason other than "everyone else is doing it“ This is the bizarre part of this all. Unlike the dotCom bust in the early 2000s, there was no earnings disaster that precipitated this. These companies are all profitable and some wildly profitable. How much of this so-called upcoming slowdown real and how much of it is simply in the heads of frightened, uncreative CEOs who are all looking to each other for clues about what to do? Because right now there is no recession.
- snovv_crash 4y ago
  There are potentially massive improvements in productivity in the pipeline (ChatGPT/Lambda/Copilot), which might reduce headcount requirements.
  - jleyank 4y ago
    I am vaguely uneasy with the thought that undirected random generators (or pattern marchers) can adequately fill current jobs. If true, it should give a whole lot of people pause re career choices. Automated infinite monkeys at keyboards? Is there really nothing novel being done? If not, that little secret will put a knife in funding,
    - snovv_crash 4y ago
      It is more about assistance to the engineers who are there to make them more productive, not replacing people entirely. Of course, if people are more productive then you don't need as many for the same level of outputs.
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > There are potentially massive improvements in productivity in the pipeline (ChatGPT/Lambda/Copilot), which might reduce headcount requirements. I’m not sure this hypothesis makes any sense. The bulk of all development work is fixing bugs and adding features to existing code, and in the process refactor code. How would automatic code generators help in that?
- chii 4y ago
  they over hired during the pandemic thinking the growth would not stop. Cutting the workers back now before shit hits the fan makes sense, as the recession is on the horizon and everybody can see it. It's not as if they can't just rehire if the recession doesn't pan out as badly as predicted.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    > they over hired during the pandemic thinking the growth would not stop. > the recession is on the horizon and everybody can see it Everyone seems to be simply accepting these as given. “Growth” is not some outside force that starts and stops like a faucet. Recessions can’t be predicted, although 20 out of the last 3 were. 200K above-average incomes suddenly unemployed may very well lead to a recession. What is causing what?
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > they over hired during the pandemic thinking the growth would not stop. I have to call bullshit on this scapegoat. We're seeing FANGs killing projects that started way before the pandemic, without providing any clear rationale. At most there's this vague excuse that the company decided to scale down investments, but internally we're seeing entire teams being written down and everyone fired without any notice, from managers to engineers.
- borner791 4y ago
  Turning into a self fulfilling prophecy
- merricksb 4y ago
  It’s not really about whether there is a recession happening/coming. They just hired loads of people to do jobs that they now realise don’t need to be done. So much of what companies were pouring money into in the past few years - i.e., VR, blockchain, assuming everyone would just keep increasingly living online - has turned out to be garbage.
  - simplotek 4y ago
    > They just hired loads of people to do jobs that they now realise don’t need to be done. I'm not sure you got the point. It's sop to start and stop projects, hire and fire people, invest and cut, etc. But this event is a concerted effort to fire a massive amount of people without criteria or rationale that's immediately evident. FANGs just woke up one day and decided that they would decimate their companies.
    - za3faran 4y ago
      I like the theory that it's another collusion to suppress wages, but they can't get sued for it this time.
flandish 4y ago
Until we do get a union, a formal union, there’s always the IWW to help practice and train your “organization” skills, get to know others in the space, and learn that it’s a really tough war to fight. I would join an engineering union in a hot second if there was one.
sys_64738 4y ago
I would never join a tech workers union. The concept is illogical.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Funny enough tech workers are already part of a collective if they live in a country with a democratic government. As voters like minded people band together push for changes, directly or through representatives. So why would it be illogical for tech workers to form a union as companies grow in power to rival nation states?
  - sys_64738 4y ago
    Unions only have power when they are the majority in an organization and can do collective bargaining. There is simply zero utility to be had from that in tech industries as these folk are already paid too much and can walk elsewhere for opportunities.
    - jleyank 4y ago
      Until they aren’t or can’t. Plan ahead folks as the companies are. And those companies are going to continue to view worked as necessary evils.
      - sys_64738 4y ago
        You should always have an exit strategy from your current company. If you can't survive a long duration layoff event then your planning sucks.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
But will a union lead to a better product? As a consumer, unions concern me because they could raise prices, and disrupt whatever thing I have going on (think teachers and flight union strikes). So, as a consumer, I don't support unions. On the other hand, I think employees who are not treated fairly by their employer should form a union. It's the best thing they can do for themselves as an employee. Consequently, when there is a tech union, I am concerned what that means for me as a customer. Will that lead to better products? Will it lead to higher prices?
- jleyank 4y ago
  Does staff turnover lead to better or worse products? Does a better work environment make for happier, more productive workers? If you’re interested I lower prices as a consumer, do you willingly accept lower raises, pay reductions or layoffs?
- tnel77 4y ago
  It bothers me how selfish everyone is. A portion of your comment can be read as “I don’t support unions because the bettering of other people’s lives might lead to some form of inconvenience in mine.” Edit: I’m not blindly pro-union, but this “what if I’m slightly uncomfortable” attitude is one of the most common arguments I see against unions and it drives me nuts. When did we all become so selfish?

18 points by headalgorithm 4y ago

> And for no reason other than "everyone else is doing it“ This is the bizarre part of this all. Unlike the dotCom bust in the early 2000s, there was no earnings disaster that precipitated this. These companies are all profitable and some wildly profitable. How much of this so-called upcoming slowdown real and how much of it is simply in the heads of frightened, uncreative CEOs who are all looking to each other for clues about what to do? Because right now there is no recession.

snovv_crash 4y ago
There are potentially massive improvements in productivity in the pipeline (ChatGPT/Lambda/Copilot), which might reduce headcount requirements.
- jleyank 4y ago
  I am vaguely uneasy with the thought that undirected random generators (or pattern marchers) can adequately fill current jobs. If true, it should give a whole lot of people pause re career choices. Automated infinite monkeys at keyboards? Is there really nothing novel being done? If not, that little secret will put a knife in funding,
  - snovv_crash 4y ago
    It is more about assistance to the engineers who are there to make them more productive, not replacing people entirely. Of course, if people are more productive then you don't need as many for the same level of outputs.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > There are potentially massive improvements in productivity in the pipeline (ChatGPT/Lambda/Copilot), which might reduce headcount requirements. I’m not sure this hypothesis makes any sense. The bulk of all development work is fixing bugs and adding features to existing code, and in the process refactor code. How would automatic code generators help in that?
chii 4y ago
they over hired during the pandemic thinking the growth would not stop. Cutting the workers back now before shit hits the fan makes sense, as the recession is on the horizon and everybody can see it. It's not as if they can't just rehire if the recession doesn't pan out as badly as predicted.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  > they over hired during the pandemic thinking the growth would not stop. > the recession is on the horizon and everybody can see it Everyone seems to be simply accepting these as given. “Growth” is not some outside force that starts and stops like a faucet. Recessions can’t be predicted, although 20 out of the last 3 were. 200K above-average incomes suddenly unemployed may very well lead to a recession. What is causing what?
- simplotek 4y ago
  > they over hired during the pandemic thinking the growth would not stop. I have to call bullshit on this scapegoat. We're seeing FANGs killing projects that started way before the pandemic, without providing any clear rationale. At most there's this vague excuse that the company decided to scale down investments, but internally we're seeing entire teams being written down and everyone fired without any notice, from managers to engineers.
borner791 4y ago
Turning into a self fulfilling prophecy
merricksb 4y ago
It’s not really about whether there is a recession happening/coming. They just hired loads of people to do jobs that they now realise don’t need to be done. So much of what companies were pouring money into in the past few years - i.e., VR, blockchain, assuming everyone would just keep increasingly living online - has turned out to be garbage.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > They just hired loads of people to do jobs that they now realise don’t need to be done. I'm not sure you got the point. It's sop to start and stop projects, hire and fire people, invest and cut, etc. But this event is a concerted effort to fire a massive amount of people without criteria or rationale that's immediately evident. FANGs just woke up one day and decided that they would decimate their companies.
  - za3faran 4y ago
    I like the theory that it's another collusion to suppress wages, but they can't get sued for it this time.

flandish 4y ago

Until we do get a union, a formal union, there’s always the IWW to help practice and train your “organization” skills, get to know others in the space, and learn that it’s a really tough war to fight. I would join an engineering union in a hot second if there was one.

sys_64738 4y ago

I would never join a tech workers union. The concept is illogical.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Funny enough tech workers are already part of a collective if they live in a country with a democratic government. As voters like minded people band together push for changes, directly or through representatives. So why would it be illogical for tech workers to form a union as companies grow in power to rival nation states?
- sys_64738 4y ago
  Unions only have power when they are the majority in an organization and can do collective bargaining. There is simply zero utility to be had from that in tech industries as these folk are already paid too much and can walk elsewhere for opportunities.
  - jleyank 4y ago
    Until they aren’t or can’t. Plan ahead folks as the companies are. And those companies are going to continue to view worked as necessary evils.
    - sys_64738 4y ago
      You should always have an exit strategy from your current company. If you can't survive a long duration layoff event then your planning sucks.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

But will a union lead to a better product? As a consumer, unions concern me because they could raise prices, and disrupt whatever thing I have going on (think teachers and flight union strikes). So, as a consumer, I don't support unions. On the other hand, I think employees who are not treated fairly by their employer should form a union. It's the best thing they can do for themselves as an employee. Consequently, when there is a tech union, I am concerned what that means for me as a customer. Will that lead to better products? Will it lead to higher prices?

jleyank 4y ago
Does staff turnover lead to better or worse products? Does a better work environment make for happier, more productive workers? If you’re interested I lower prices as a consumer, do you willingly accept lower raises, pay reductions or layoffs?
tnel77 4y ago
It bothers me how selfish everyone is. A portion of your comment can be read as “I don’t support unions because the bettering of other people’s lives might lead to some form of inconvenience in mine.” Edit: I’m not blindly pro-union, but this “what if I’m slightly uncomfortable” attitude is one of the most common arguments I see against unions and it drives me nuts. When did we all become so selfish?